Being Labeled a "Flake" in the MP

Milkycat - I'd say, that's just rudeness. There are rude people out there, and it's just one of those things you deal with once in a while. I'd just shrug it off and make a mental note not to inquire about any items that seller lists in the future.

Starry Ary, I understand your point and agree - life happens. Sometimes our cars break down, or, we get laid off/fired, or our pet gets sick, etc. etc. All those unexpected emergencies take precedence over dolls, if money is tight. However, there's no way for a seller to know if you (general) are backing out of a transaction because you have been fired from your job or because you found another doll that you are all of a sudden more interested in. You can always communicate with the seller and explain the situation. Sometimes, if the seller has been burned many times by various excuses, she may not believe your story, and you may still get "flakey" feedback. But, ultimately, one or two flakey feedback reports among many positives is not going to have a negative impact on your marketplace standing. Majority of sellers will simply view those "flakey" ratings as a one-time deal. It's when someone gets "flakey" feedback consistently when it becomes a problem.

 

To reiterate what I said earlier, how is a seller to know if something is really just life or a habit if they only leave flakey feedback after it has become a habit? It's a bit of a catch 22 for sellers.

Personally, I do try to be understanding if someone backs out because something serious has happened, but they do need to be in some form of contact and definitely not leading me on like the one buyer I did leave flakey feedback for. A lot really depends on how the potential buyer presents themselves. I definitely don't think someone should go into debt for dolls, but I think one also needs a financial cushion which is not just hobby money.

 

to protect against flakey, now, i don't reserve anything without deposit not refundable ! about layaway, now, it is the same... Like that, i'm pretty sure the buyer is serious... finish for me, to hold without deposit ! last time, again about shoes reserve my service and she never paid ! never writte ! she tell to paid... it is too late now to put a bad feedback ! but now she is on my blacklist !

 

Your issue might be a real one, and no one is going to get angry at you for having an issue come up - life does happen, and sometimes you're not prepared for it, or not prepared well enough - but no one can see into anyone's mind and know that the issue is legit. Most likely, you and the other person have never met before, so they don't know that you're honest. They don't know if you really were fired, or if you use that same line over and over. Here are two examples:

Example 1: Let's say I'm selling my doll. Someone PM's me, offering to pay what I'm asking, and I agree to sell. One day, after we've been getting things in order, and they've even paid me a portion, they tell me that their dog died, and had to use that money to take care of the arrangements. I figure that no one would lie about that happening (as unexpected accidents happen every day), so I decide to not leave them any feedback...

Example 2: Say someone is selling their doll on the MP. I PM to buy the doll, and they decide that they're going to sell it to me because I was the first to want it. We go through the transaction, and I pay part of the full payment. A week later, they tell me that they've decided to not sell the doll because their dog died, and they "don't feel like having to say good-bye to my dog, and give away my first doll in the same week." They refund my money, and I'm doll-less. Most likely, I was sort of emotionally preparing - maybe buying outfits and wigs that cannot fit or won't work with any other doll I have - and I'm probably going to feel upset that I am not getting this doll after all. But what can I do, I think; this person's dog died, and they must be feeling really crummy...

Flaky feedback isn't intended to make the person who backed out feel bad - it's a head's up to other people who may want to enter into a transaction with the individual to see if they follow through with buying and selling. It shows who is probably good in their word, and those who might be dishonest or just really poor planners. Note: You can't 'stop' or 'prevent' most sudden job terminations, deaths, car accidents, or costly emergencies, but having the proper precautions put in place can soften the blow should something come up.

The individuals in my examples might have perfectly legit reasons why they need to back out suddenly, but because I am not their friend, and I've probably never met this person before, I can't rest on words alone. Feedback is sort of like insurance; generally good feedback gives me some peace of mind that I'm not going to get taken for a ride. Mostly bad feedback warns me to stay away. If you do a lot of buying and selling on the MP, and have good feedback, this one time isn't going to break the bank unless it's a really BIG incident.

As to the issue at hand, while it would've been nice to have some kind of confirmation PM from the commissioner, if they didn't put flaky feedback in your feedback thread, then don't worry about it. They might have figured you'd return to their thread and see your name removed, and you'd understand they got your PM. Admittedly, not the best way to do things (I feel that if they were able to log onto DoA, and remove your name from the list, they could've easily just shot of a one-sentence PM acknowledging your PM).

I would. You paid, and made an agreement to a sale. Everything, you assumed, was all ready to go. Yes, your money was refunded, but you still were led to believe that the sale was going through. Did they ever check in with you to tell you what was missing, or if you wanted to buy it, minus the missing piece, for a discount? Depending on why the piece is missing, they could've offered to send the missing piece your way, if it was just lost in their home. If they tried to work with you, and you denied any offer they put on the table, then I wouldn't leave flaky feedback. I would discuss how the transaction went, but stress that they were willing to work with you to get things right.

Either way, it isn't very "professional*" to offer something for sale without making sure you had everything included first. It's just bad manners to have a buyer all lined up, only to find out that your item isn't even in order.

I think, were I the seller and I made the error of thinking I had everything, I would probably tell you what was missing, and ask if you still wanted to buy it, but for less than what we agreed to (because you originally were paying for a full outfit, and you aren't now). If you didn't want it, then you'd get a refund, and I'd try to find those pieces for next time (and maybe PM you to see if you were still interested when I was sure I had everything). If you did buy it anyway, I'd offer to make some kind of agreement to send the missing items your way, if I told you that they were just lost.

*Professional: Not in the usual, sort of 'stuffy' sense, but you are going into a business transaction when you sell anything, and you have to think of your buyer if you decide to sell.

 

Flakey feedback is necessary in instances where the person literally flaked on a purchase/sale. I agree that it's a warning to other users. Also, it's one of those things where if a person gets enough flaker feedback people will stop or at least be less likely to deal with them. Once that message comes across, that it's starting to get hard to get into transactions when they really want something, person will either:

1. Get their act together -- In order to not further sully their reputation as a buyer or seller, they will try to pick their transactions more wisely. (Make sure they really want to sell or have all the pieces in order before selling, like in Lapin's case.) Less users may be willing to deal with them, thus may make it harder for them to get anything they actually want. Which isn't a bad thing, because when they finally do get a transaction going they'd be more likely to pull through it and actually get some positive on their list. Effectively removing a frequent flake from other seller's AND buyer's (yes, buyer's) hair. When something gets bought just before you get there, you get disappointed find something else after the item is listed as sold, then the seller you pm'd comes back later asking "you still interested? that person flaked." and you may no longer have the money and still have to pass on it.

2. Leave the Marketplace -- Would anyone really complain? Life happens, but when life happens that much this person shouldn't be trying to buy and sell expensive dolls and their accessories on the internet. They should be getting their affairs in order. More than welcome to come back when they're ready/able to talk business and follow through with it.

Without flaker feedback left in the person's feedback thread the rest of the community has no way of knowing that this buyer/seller used "i have an emergency" as a means to end a transaction. It doesn't have to be spiteful flaker feedback.

That is still flaker feedback. It isn't spiteful, it isn't insulting. It just says what happened. This may be the only incident in that person's 12 page thread of anything less than stellar. If that's true it won't mar anything and would be seen to the rest of the community as a "life happens" situation. However, it also could be the first of many. There may be other users afraid/feeling bad about marring someone's record, and thus a chain of flakes may not be found because everyone was too afraid/careless/guilty conscience to be "that person" and post it. Again, it isn't being "that person" so much as it is telling what happened. You're only "that person" if you're a jerk about it.

If it was your very first transaction and you flaked, you may have a slightly harder time getting others to deal with you, but if you learned your lesson (if there was one to be learned :/) you wouldn't have any other issues after the positive starts coming in.

 

I think when it comes to flakey buyers, what sellers are most afraid of is having a week of back and forth with the buyer about how they'll get the money soon, but in the end they'll back out. If you have an 'indemand' product and you had to lose a customer because you believed the flakely person would pay is a lose of a sale. The higher up on the price range you go, the more strict the seller tends to be, I understand this, but when it's to the point that a layaway isn't offered for a 2k+ doll, I think the seller's paranoia is getting in their way of a sale. Even though layaway wasn't mentioned in the original post, I think it's an important piont to make. People flake out on layaways all the time, which is why sellers have strict time limits and even 'no refund' policies. I don't think it should be considered flaking when you inquire about the price or more pictures, I do think that it should be clearly stated in the first pm that you are not 100% if you're purchasing. However this is not a lisence for people not interested in buying AT ALL to just ask around willy-nilly. Thus the difference between serious inquiries and the wasting of the seller's time. Though I don't believe that a serious inquiry has to end in a sale.

 

I think that there is some paranoia when a person won't take a layaway payment for a doll that is over $1,000. Not everyone works in a job where they can afford to lose $1,000 just like that... but a lot more people could afford that over time with a layaway payment system. If you need to do six or even eight installments, so be it. If the seller just states that the layaway payments are non-refundable, it isn't going to be such a bother. If a person has to back out, that person has to give up the money they paid already. The seller may have lost out on someone willing to pay more during that time, but they aren't at a total loss.

Having a non-refundable layaway plan also teaches the buyer to keep things in order. They may want to spread their payments out a little more if they're worried an issue might occur. I believe it provides incentive for an individual to have things in place should an emergency occur that requires money and/or time. It says "If you want this doll, you have to be a little more serious."

I'm sure that anyone who declares layaway payments non-refundable has to have a thicker skin. There's bound to be someone who backs out of a layaway plan, and then tries to fight for that money. I can only wonder how many complaint emails doll companies get from people who try to get their payments back, arguing that they had a family emergency, and it couldn't be helped. I'm sure there's still denial when they try to point out the statement on their website that says "LAYAWAY PAYMENTS NON-REFUNDABLE".

People just need to understand that there is no exception to this rule. It doesn't matter if you've decided not to buy, or if you can't buy because of something out of your control.

 

A few pages back the discussion was going on about that accidents happen, and I'd like to get back to that in this post.

Personally, I have never, and would never, buy a doll on layaway. I'm not rich enough at the moment to buy a doll without layaway, but I could afford it with layaway if things stayed the way they are now. I have a partner with many old debts and I have 6 rats and 2 cats. With those conditions, things are bound not to stay the way they are. So I, as a buyer, have to think twice about this - even if I have saved money for emergencies, they won't be enough for all my animals needing to go to the vet at the same time, plus if an old debt that we didn't know about appears, PLUS paying for a doll on layaway. I know myself as a person and I know what my life looks like. Accidents happen, yes, but in my case they WILL happen. Buyers should take an objective look on their life situation before agreeing on a layaway, because most time those accidents and emergencies can be foreseen and expected. With some common sense many people wouldn't need to cancel their layaways halfway through because they counted on that their expenses would be static and unchanged.

I usually think like this - if I can't afford to buy a doll right away, I'm probably not going to be able to afford it on layaway either.

But then, of course, this doesn't apply to everyone all the time. There can be emergencies that are completely unexpected and senselessly expensive. One of my sellers even died in the middle of a transaction.. That was horrible and I really couldn't care less about my money. :/ But those things happen very rarely and are probably not a majority of the "flakes" in the Marketplace. I have also had a person "flake" because of a too high phone bill, and honestly, that is just bad planning and lacking of life awareness (is that even a word? XD).

TL;DR As a buyer it's your responsibility to think over your life situation and learn to expect the accidents that might happen, in order to prevent having to flake in the middle of a layaway.

Sorry for going awfully personal, but I hope I made my point clear..

 

I feel the same about layaways. I recently saw a doll head I have been searching everywhere for and is non longer made. I asked the seller if they would consider a split but she said no. The head was within my budget, but, despite the fact that the extra body would be very useful and work with all my other random heads, I couldn't afford to buy without a layaway so decided to forget about it.

The chances are good that I would meet every payment faithfully and have no problem at all, but I am self employed and you never know what is around the corner. My busiest time of the year was very quiet at the end of 2011 and that makes me suspect that this year my earnings will be coming down. Why saddle myself with another financial commitment on top of rent, bills, groceries, essentials, etc, when I could easily have a bad month and wind up having to dip into my "emergency fund" to meet my layaway commitment. Then what happens if there actually is an emergency? I just had an unexpected £200 bill for welding on my car, that came out of nowhere because I don't spend that much time lying on the floor poking around with a torch under my only means of transport (yes, I know so many men would be rolling their eyes at that statement!), the only reason that didn't upset me too much is that I could pay for it from emergency funds.

What if, as has been the case for me sometimes, you don't have emergency funds because you simply don't have that much left over from paying all the monthly living expenses? Well, you have to bite the bullet and do without dolls, or, as many of us do from time to time, sell off some of your beloved dolls to get some cash back in that emergency fund where it is a lot more use to you/me than a doll. I don't think there would be any need for flakey feedback, ever, if we all just remembered that these dolls are very expensive luxury items and buying one shouldn't be a whim or because we are bored and browsing the MP. Don't enquire after dolls you can't easily afford, it's a harsh truth.

 

honestly? As a seller, I would judge by how many posts they have on DOA, and their feedback thread that they currently have. If they're someone with thousands of posts, and their feedback thread is 11 pages long with obvious all positive feedback, idk. I'd give them a break. I'd also probably give newbies a break. but if they're someone whose been a member of doa since 2008 with 50 posts and 1 page of feedback... then I may get sketchy. That may seem harsh/unfair, but I feel that's how I would do it.

I guess I just think the idea of flakey feedback is flakey in general. most places have positive, neutral, and negative. (ebay, etsy, amazon, etc) I think it should stay that way here on doa... But that's not up to me to decide ^^; the term "flake" is negative, and i can see why people would get nervous about it.

 

Please keep this thread on-topic

This thread is debating the implications of being labelled a flake, not for giving advice regarding specific Marketplace transactions and the appropriate feedback to give on the outcome. Any questions about specific situations and which feedback to leave for transactions should be directed to Ask the Moderators, both for your confidentiality and for the buyers/sellers you are referencing in your post. It is not difficult to indicate which buyers/sellers you are having perceived difficulties with and this may unfairly influence other members against them. It's always best to discuss anything you're not sure of with a moderator.

Feedback belongs in the Feedback subforum and not in this thread. Thank you!

 

I don't think there's a way for "flake" feedback to not sound negative, though in my mind, if the money hasn't changed hands at all, it really is neutral.

The only major problem I have with feedback is that even though I've conducted relatively few transactions for my time/post count, I've only gotten feedback from maybe half of them. I always leave feedback. There are a lot of people who seem to only leave feedback if the transaction is over a certain amount, or they have a negative experience. Just like a lot of people who only fill out those surveys or post on an online review when they've had anything negative at a service. And while I could go with "no news is good news" it bugs me to not get feedback in return. I feel if I leave feedback, even if you do 10 transactions a week, that's your cue to return feedback.

As a seller, I've responded to "I (may) be interested in X" with "X is still for sale, do you have an questions on it?" , and while I've never personally had competing interest (though I believe in first come first serve for it) "X is still for sale, but I have a few parties who may be interested" or "They are for sale, but I have someone interested, should I let you know if they decide against it?" to indicate what's going on. Most of my sales have been direct, but while I wouldn't want to pressure someone, I might indicate that there are other folks interested if there were to someone interested in buying something just so they hopefully won't feel too hurt if someone beats them to the punch. I also don't bump a thread when someone is inquiring just to give them a chance. I've never been in a hurry to sell. As a buyer or seller, I like to respond as quickly as possible because I don't like leaving people hanging, and as a buyer, I'd appreciate knowing that there's a chance I won't get it so I don't get my hopes up. And while this maybe puts me at a disadvantage as a seller, I don't see it as right to send out your paypal to several people interested in the same item to make it a race to pay. If I've sent my paypal addy to someone or an invoice to someone, it's because I feel we've come to an agreement of sale and I fully expect them to pay and they fully expect to receive the item.

I do have some frustration with the idea of "feeler" threads and how one should consider transactions or feedback for them. I don't see many anymore, so maybe this is null. If someone posts a feeler thread, I take it as either they are looking for what interest is out there for their doll, what price range people are willing to offer, or they are are thinking but not positive on selling. Often I see the feeler prefix used, followed by "this doll has to go!" or "I don't really want to sell this doll, so it would take quite a offer for me to part", which leads me to case A: switch to "for sale, please" and case B: why are you putting them up in the MP? What I do understand in case B is if you need to cull your collection and put up, say, six dolls for sale just to see which you're most likely to be able to sell...and then taking down those that you aren't, but otherwise it seems like you're hurting your chances of gauging interest by saying that you're so attached that only a high price will let you part. It comes off as weird to me.
When it comes to feelers, I take that as a they MAY be interested in selling" whether they state that or not directly. In return, I think they should take any potential buyer as someone who "MAY be interested". If someone does respond to a feeler with "I'd pay $X for that", you can't hold them to it or consider them a flake if when you actually decide to sell, they are no longer interested. All the same, if you make an offer to someone with a feeler, and they decide they're not going to sell, I don't think you can leave flake feedback either.

 

I'm glad for the rule against leaving Flakeback for anyone who just inquires about an item without purchasing...! Expecting a sale from every single inquiry is just ridiculous. I refuse to view inquiries as "wasting the seller's time", because if the seller is really trying to sell an item, they need to make an effort to show me what it is & answer any questions about it-- not throw up 2 blurry pictures & a shipping-quote and expect me to jump on it.

Most sellers I encounter seem to have woefully inadequate photographs & information up, maybe it's just my shopping luck. So I'm damn well going to inquire about something before I shell out for it. And often, despite the clarity of DOA's sales-page format, the sales copy itself is also unclear (whether from a language-barrier or just from foggy syntax), so I have to make definitely sure that I understand the exact offer/terms before I even get to inquiring about the item. One time I thought a rather garbled sales page was willing to split the partial outfit from the doll, but it turned out the seller was specifically trying to say NO splits of the fullset at all; that's a pretty big distinction! Inquiries prevent disaster.

And as a buyer, I always reply as soon as the additional photos/information/etc. have settled the decision for me: either "Yes please" or "Thank you for the pics, but I'll pass on it". That part isn't so hard, and I wish more people (both buyers & sellers) would adopt the habit. Stringing anyone along is not nice.

 

I had to flake on a transaction once, before the flaky feedback rules were implemented, and it... well it haunts me. I gave the seller a deposit and then something came up and I wasn't able to complete the transaction (it was around xmas time) - I told her to keep the full deposit even though I'd paid more than she'd asked for the non-refundable deposit because I felt awful about flaking out on her and although I could tell she was upset she was nevertheless understanding and polite about it. Because of that I always always always try to be as understanding as possible if something comes up because I know things do happen.

On the other hand, if communication is poor from the outset or they're slow in paying the deposit or whatever then I would reconsider my forgiving stance... It indicates (to me) that the buyer isn't exactly sure on what they're doing or wanting and although I understand in theory the fact that not everyone spends a lot of time on the internet (I don't log in to DoA for weeks at a time sometimes) and not everyone has a smart phone connected to their e-mails where they get PM notifications (like me, although even then sometimes I read the PM in my e-mail when I can't get to a computer or wi fi to check it on here and then forget about it so I do understand!!) if you contact someone asking for something be it pictures or to buy then you should at least have the decency to try and get back on to check your messages to get back to the seller if they reply.

I do think that some of the so-called 'flaky' feedback I've seen given out is a little hasty and unnecessary but I also think that flaky feedback is extremely important for other buyers and sellers. I recently started a very very long layaway for a doll there is no way I could ever afford if I saved up (or, rather, that would be unlikely to be available if I saved for the 12 months or so I would need to get the money together, if it would even be the same price in 12 months time) and I am sure the buyer would have checked my feedback before entering into such an agreement. I'm glad that I have had plenty of fantastic transactions here on DoA, I've been extremely lucky that I've never ever had a negative transaction and everyone I've dealt with has been very pleasant. But if I had lots of flaky feedback then the outcome might have been very different, the seller might have been more wary of me and less likely to agree to such a lengthy layaway with me because there would be evidence of me breaking agreements in the past. Likewise, if she had tons of flaky feedback I probably would have passed up the chance of the doll for fear of her flaking out on me at some point during the layaway. But thankfully that's not the case

I do think that you should be able to say "I'm interested in your X, but-" and then if the seller doesn't agree to the "but" you can back out - I think that's covered by the first "cannot" in the rules but I'm not certain

In terms of things 'coming up' - I know it happens, it's happened to me, but I would also be completely understanding if a seller (or buyer) left me flaky feedback off the back of me backing out due to something 'coming up' for me, because they have absolutely no way of knowing it's actually true. I've seen people claim illness or inability to access the internet as excuses for non-communication but yet log on to DoA or other sites frequently which doesn't add up. So I would be understanding - a little upset because I do have excellent feedback - if they chose to inform others that I had defaulted on a transaction with them via flaky feedback and would just work harder to ensure it didn't happen again and that I could restore my good feedback.

I think I might have gone in a bit of a loop there... Sorry for probably repeating myself, my aunt is constantly interrupting me so I keep losing track of what I'm saying

 

If someone were to say they would buy from me, set a date to pay, not pay then set another date and not pay etc then I would consider them flakey. Anyone who would mess me around and not contact me after I have taken down a listing or labelled it 'finished' I would say is flakey.
Someone being interested, even me taking more photos, working out postage etc, I wouldnt consider a flake if they decided after a while they didnt want it, its as simple as - just keep in contact!
It would have to be quite an extreme case to make me want to leave someone flakey feedback, I never have.

 

Saying "I'm interested in..." isn't an offer to buy in my book. There doesn't need to be a "but" in there at all, you are just expressing interest. The only time I ever consider an enquirer has crossed the line into a buyer is when they make some variation of the statement "I definitely want it please send me your paypal address". Any Flaking comes after that point, but never before.

 

I am a seller myself. If a person gives me questions, I always respond and hope he/she will buy. If the person changes his mind, well, it's his choice. Asking a question doesn't mean you owe the seller something. The only thing that puts me down is disappearing "buyers" I've already had a few who would go on half-buying but after a couple of emails vanished. Just don't think this is fair. My advise (and hope) for the buyers would be: please treat us, sellers, right. We do respond to the questions and try to give you all the information, but if you finally decide you will not buy, just let us know. This is important. Vanishing into the open is a little rude way of communicating.

 

I have limited experience on the MP, but thankfully haven't had anyone flake on a sale yet (knowing that I've only sold 1 item so far, but still). I think it would take someone saying they were going to buy whatever item(s) I had for sale and then backing out or completely disappearing for me to leave them flakey feedback.

 

I've felt I've been flaked out as a buyer. I had inquired about a doll in the MP, got an immediate first response asked for more pictures and questions, but then the seller just stopped messaging me all together. What the heck? So I gave up. I wouldn't want to get involved with someone with poor communication.

I've had someone message me about stuff for sale, we got into prices, they made an offer which I had to refuse as it was too low, then after that they just never messaged back.


If i inquire about something from the MP, I like to get more info first, maybe more pictures, ask if the prices are firm before committing and even then if I decided I do not want to purchase the product, I at least message the seller back with my decision.

I find it flakey when there's no "closure." I don't care if you don't want to buy something, just tell me!

 

Until they say "I'll buy it" the potential buyer has every right NOT to buy imho- this does not deserve flakey feedback. On the other hand, I had a potential buyer once say they would buy the item in question, & even asked for a Paypal invoice- but then just didn't pay or pm me about why they didn't buy- I find this very rude, and in hindsight should have left flakey feedback. Like shelley stated, a little communication goes a long way & is common courtesy