BJD makers threatened by China-based counterfeiter / trademarks

when it comes to informing the newbies i don't sugar coat it and use very blunt language and comparisons. Nothing else seems to work

i say it would be like you printing your own money with legit printing materials you stole. does not maek the end product legal.

when you 'make' a recast you are omitting a crime
when you buy one ESPECIALLY knowingly... YOU are breaking laws (at least here buying stolen/counterfeit goods is a crime)

the buying and selling of recasts is a crime .... are you a criminal?

to the arguments that you cant get legits? (to young, too poor, too young to make money) I love this part... I call BS
I'm 50 got my first bjd FIVE YEARS AGO ... I've known about them for nearly as long as they have been here... that's 20 years and more. I did not have enough money to buy all my medications without family help at one point... suck it up... if I can wait nearly 20 years for my first.... it won't kill you to save up... oh yes I'm on government disability so I sure do not have piles of money.... I learn to budget and save. Do i always get what I want? of course not... i just passed on 2 dolls so I didn't strain myself financially. THAT is what growing up and being responsible means... doing and getting what you can when you can and not breaking laws to go around that. Waiting won't kill you.

Do the right thing, take time and earn it... as you can now eee with this issue you supporting the recaster is causing harm for a very large # of ppl and i don't mean us collectors.... But the legit companies who now have to waste time and money to fight what you helped pay for.... recasts...

That's my 'rant' and how i say it.... sound mean? sure... putting legit companies by buying his recast.... makes me seem sweet

Think of me like the adds showing mangled car wreck still covered in blood to stop ppl from drinking and driving XD

 

I agree with St.James that the Tumblr is reinventing the wheel to a large extent and it's not quite what I initially envisaged, but at least the list of companies will be collated somewhere off DOA. So.... sort of off topic, but relevant at a tangent:

I am hesitant to bring this up, but it's important.... DOA has an image problem that has been exploited and blown out of proportion by the pro-recast brigade. Several times I have sold BJD to newbies to the hobby who have then asked for more info on where to buy BJD etc.... only to have them tell me when I mention Den of Angels, that they have been warned off!!!! At first I thought it was isolated but if you do a search it's quite easy to find anti-DOA anecdotes from the pro-recast crowd. It's obvious why they would bad-mouth any anti-recast site and many of them are just feeling sour-grapes because they have been kicked off here, obviously.... but if you are new to the hobby and this is what you are hearing then it is a big problem for us legit hobbyists.

I will start to go through my Flickr and add the company website link to all my doll images (if anyone wants to do that on Facebook remember to put the link in the top comment rather than the post or they could freeze your account) but I think maybe if we all make a big effort to attract more newbies into the DOA community and maybe even start some kind of Buddy scheme where a newbie here gets assigned an established member who can help show them round (because it's a big site and a bit daunting when you are new to it). I even know some older members who have stopped coming here since the change of platform because they felt confused my the way things changed, I'm trying to persuade them back. Some people are more adventurous than others but many need the reassurance of having one person lead them by the hand (so to speak!). It's no wonder that the pro-recasters are winning when the old hobby stalwarts have fragmented away to Facebook where everything is fair game and no-one is really moderating.

 

Yeah, I wonder what kind of hashtag we should add to clarify our stance in this case? I mean, something that we all agree to use it the term, to tell everyone that we loathe recast and only support the real genuine BJD.

@mangameow
I got a reply from Dollits, but I have to retract the links he wrote, cause it seems he knows every single account of this recaster [and since we're obviously not here to promote those links]. I can PM you if you want the full reply. But I guess it's only safe to repost the one I posted below.

 

I'm probably veering into off topic here, but that rule in itself is part of the problem. I used to be hugely involved in the community and here on DoA, so I feel like I probably am 'old hobby' enough to address this. Every single one of my doll friends says the same thing when I mention this to them; you can't use this place the way you used to back in the day. It's just too massive and too constrictive. I fully understand why the management here have the rules and regulations they do, because the place grew into a behemoth of a thing and when organisations grow, they need to be controlled, but that control has absolutely killed the place for experienced, old time collectors who were used to being able to chat. Is it any wonder that some of us moved to places where you can have a normal conversation without looking over your shoulder for the rules you may or may not be breaking or skirting, really?

That doesn't even cover those of us, like my friends and I, who simply withdrew from posting our dolls anywhere because we felt it pointless in a sea of endlessly changing styles and tastes amongst the newer members who weren't interested in our older style dolls.

I met some of my best friends in the world on this site, over a decade ago, in a thread in which we all watched the Eurovision song contest on television together. That would be locked in a nanosecond now and those relationships would never have been made. Again, I completely understand why, but that doesn't make it suck any less for those of us who formed genuine friendships here that way back in the day and now can't do that anymore.

DoA does have an image problem, it has had for some time, but honestly there's no way you can change that now it's become so massive it requires serious policing.

 

Judging from all those confessions I've read, that image problem seems to go back mainly to either recast-owners who are pissed off at DoA's strict anti-recast policy or to people who got banned - so mostly on misinformation, because, honestly? Do you really expect unbiased opinions on DoA from them?

 

Lulu and Khell: and yet some of us do still come here and we obviously all think it's worth fighting for so we have to come up with a plan to win back the old school collectors who have drifted away and lure in the newbies who will otherwise be easy prey for the counterfeit crowd. When you look at how (rightly) this issue has really stirred up the doll community on DOA, am I the only one that thinks this thread would have reached 80 pages by now in the old days.

Back to the topic though, the only way we can support the amazing artists that create the dolls we love so much and who have been under increasing attack now for at least 5 years, is to pull the legit community together. This fragmentation of the community is what the Counterfeiters and their supporters have been exploiting to gain so much ground that Luo can afford to buy all those trademarks. No, I do not expect unbiased opinions from them but we need to figure out some kind of action plan to make DOA feel really friendly, welcoming and inclusive and start to work on some spin doctoring.... but also maybe I should get back to work!

 

Although I agree most things are just made up, there is one or two things out there that I actually discovered to be true. But they are not something I think the moderators can actually do something about because is more of personality clashs. But in times when we need to be united, I do wish we could all put our differences aside for the sake of the hobby.

 

I think the way Swandzz on YouTube takes this affair is a really good one. She is strictly pro-artist, but she tries to show newbies (and maybe the experienced BJD-hobbyist can find new aspects) how to get their dream BJD without breaking the bank. She e.g. also offered if people change their mind and buy original BJDs to face-up them. I think this is an extremely positive thing. Perhaps not to treat newbies who bought recasts as the devil himself. But showing them ways how to change and that what they did does not mean the end of the world. So if even one counterfeit buyer thinks, after watching her videos "Oh, what I did is wrong, I will change that", then making this video was worth the effort.

Is there no way the problem can be approached in this manner?

Another aspect: as you know, I originally came from the modelhorse hobby. When I stopped, modelhorses used to be largest 1/9, exotic ones 1/6 scale. Now time has not stopped there as well. I looked into my old, German forum - and they had a thread talking about BJDs (mainly 1/4 scale) and which horses are suitable for them. No wonder, as BJDs are very posable, as we all know. So by now they also exist in other places and hobbies.
Luckily, model horse people are very aware of counterfeits (they had that problem with copied resin horses in gypsum - very, very bad), so they are already aware of the recast problem and pay attention to getting only original BJDs. Just thought I should mention this.
Now I only have to remember the name of the American modelhorse site to see if the situation is similar there. I think it is important to spread awareness there too.

 

I agree on making DoA look friendlier, if possible. When people search for information or opinions on DoA, a lot of what comes up is "I was banned from Den of Angels", "Den of Angels members are elitists" or some other similar critiques. I think it's especially important considering that a lot of Pro-Recast communities are on social media platforms like Youtube and Instagram, which is probably what newbies will look at first since parts of the forum are closed to the public. In that sense, it would be important for pro-artist sources to be easy to find and accessible on social media.

I remember that way back when I first got into BJDs, DoA was still "locked" under an invitation-based system, which is why I never joined back then. Making the forum easier to join and more accessible was what got me to finally participate in this online community, which was a step int he right direction in my opinion. I wonder if there are other ways to invite newbies to come in without making everything seem so restrictive, so to speak.

I think that changing the word "recast" to "counterfeit/recast" and adding synonyms in the rules would be a good starting point. Like others have said before, it would make the term and the consequences of sharing information on them easier to understand for newcomers. Making the "counterfeit/recast" page more accessible under the "rules" or "reference" menus would also make this information easier to find for newcomers who aren't familiar with the site. Counterfeit/recast dolls are now a very important issue that every newbie should be aware of before making their first purchase, so the easier the rules or information/warnings concerning them are to find, the better.

 

I can only imagine, I've often thought about trying to sculpt and cast my own doll, I really would love to design one after my grandfather (from when he was about 23). He was quite handsome at that age, he actually looks allot like the popular 70cm male bjd sculpts of today, and I think he would have loved the thought of having a doll that looked like him (he liked traditional Japanese dolls, it's how he and my grandmother met since she was a Japanese doll maker in Kyoto during WWII). But if a recaster were to recast the doll it would be like them taking a sh*t on my grandfather's grave and then spitting in my face saying, "F**k your Grandfather and f**k you too!" That scary thought alone, plus the fact that others would enable such an act, is enough for me to not want to even bother, I don't know how some of the artists that get their dolls recasted even stand it as much as they do

 

@vonbonbon I completely agree, it would have had 80+ pages back in the day, but you'll note that a good three pages of this thread were people worrying about whether it was about to get locked. That speaks volumes about the issues, don't you think? You can't easily chat on here now (about any topic, not just this one) and it makes people wary of bothering at all.

I also agree that the fractured community isn't helping the situation, but it isn't the users here that make the rules, this place isn't a democracy, it's at best a benevolent dictatorship and whilst I understand the reasoning behind that, at the same time, there's not a great deal we can do about the external image of the place as a result of that fact.

Basically, what do you when the one possibly unifying place in the hobby is actually also hugely divisive and has destroyed all its competition just by being so vast, nothing else can keep up? The obvious answer would be to change what you have to be fit for purpose, but our hands are tied on that one, it's not our playground to make rules in and that necessary lack of userbase engagement is fostering resentment and ill feeling in the people we need to see sense.

 

I contacted Alice's Collections. They know about the problem and hope that companies will resolve the problem successfully. They are really thankful for our love and support and will let us know if they need something.

 

I 100% agree with this. There's no way to fight it, they aren't changing their minds any time soon.

Another part of the problem is those going on and on about how elitist DOA is. This is still an opinion held by so many and it's impossible to change minds...they're all convinced everyone here still believes Volks is the only company and all others are garbage. I see this everywhere. I hear it from people irl. Just because it's not true doesn't mean the few who still believe it are going to stop.

It's impossible for this site to be "elitist" at this point, because of the number of companies out there now, and the number of members. But try telling that to people who are convinced.



Also, just my 2¢, but I don't think we're really going to get anywhere calling recasts anything other recasts since the people who make and buy them are unlikely to go along with.....so while people talk about counterfeit dolls, they're still going to be labeled as "recasts" by owners and sellers. This might confuse new people even more by causing them to believe recasts and counterfeits are two separate things and only one of them is bad.

 

While I agree that we can't change the use of the word "recast" by the community, I think it's still important to attach the words "counterfeit" or "bootleg" to it for at least for comprehensive purposes. There is a lot of misinformation going around because the use of the word "recast" by itself allows for it. By adjusting the words used in at least the rules or wiki (or other established pro-artist sources and references), people would have a clearer idea of what a recast really is right off the bat.

From my understanding, the goal isn't to change people's mind about the use of the word recast; it's rather to make it clear to newcomers what a recast is right away, without having to deal with reading walls of text in the wiki. I personally do not mind doing that myself but reading all the details in the wiki or rules can be daunting for people who are just discovering DoA's website or the BJD hobby, considering that you can be banned rather quickly for not respecting the rules (at least from what I understood, please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

^ That's it 100%. it. It's teaching them the difference and getting it down right away.

I do agree that originally I felt unwelcomed to DOA-- but that's far from the truth now-- even for new comers! I see th enewbie thread full of nothing but welcomes and helping hands!

 

But that's sort of my point. I don't think it is going to make it clear. As a new person, if I see people with their dolls tagged recasts, and sales posts called recasts, with no mention of counterfeit, it might not be so obvious they are one and the same.

It's already been mentioned that so many new people get their info from facebook and tumblr, and there's a lot of pro-recast stuff out there they see first. There is no guarantee everyone will make that connection and not truly believe that a recast isn't just another type of BJD and a counterfeit is what's really bad.

The best example I can think of to illustrate what I'm trying to say is the Pro-artist movement. It was a great idea in theory, make the anti-recast people seem positive by being pro-artist instead anti-anything. Except I have seen more people who claim to be pro-artist in their social media profiles and tags while listing all their BJDs as recasts. People don't get it. They don't get that pro-artist is anti-recast. It's viewed as two different things to those who didn't already know from the beginning.

I don't really think calling them counterfeits or bootlegs is an all bad thing, I mean obviously it's what they are, it just can't be a real solution or crutch to lean on.

I think it's going to be more useful to flood the internet with anti-recast info spelling out why they're so awful. I have seen more of it in the last week than I ever have. And that's saying a lot, I don't socialize with recast-friendly or neutral groups or people (at least that I know of). The more that's out there - that is in-depth, not just RECASTS ARE BAD - the more accessible it'll be to people who might not have ever seen it.

 

I am an designer and artist who unfortunately was "duped" by eBay listings for my first two doll purchases on eBay. Many who are new to the hobby want instant gratification in actually holding and owning one of these fabulous dolls and do not know of DOA and all the other places we eventually learn where and how to buy authentic dolls. I didn't even know what recast meant. The listings were not marked "new", "recast", "reborn" or "used" either so I assumed the dolls were used. Well, most of us know what assume means

I will keep them. It was not their fault they were made by the wrong people. They will never be sold, given or thrown away.

There should be more public resources where new to the hobby enthusiasts could easily find out about the existence of this issue.

We must stand together and let our voices be heard by eBay and other such companies that sell these recasts that counterfeiting is WRONG. It is theft. There is no difference in blatantly selling a recast counterfeit doll to selling fake Rolex watches, Gucci bags, etc. which is against the law here in the US.

 

I see. I admit that I don't actively search for the recast communities or socialize with them, so I don't have insight on what tags are used and in what way. It baffles me that people can claim that they are both pro-artist and pro-recast.

I still think that DoA should be somewhat friendlier, though. Or that a clear informational source about BJDs that is not DoA could be created either as a separate website or via social media like Tumblr, since DoA already has image problems. In what way that could be done exactly, I'm not really sure. But it's worth thinking about the "what ifs" to try and find some solutions.

 

I kind agree with @VampireAngel13... I don't think that people who go for recasts would really mind buying counterfeits. I actually think recast is a more powerful word because when you search about you realize its actually even worse than counterfeits of manufacturated itens. But I do understand its hard for newbies to understand what recast means, specially because they dont know about casting yet.

In other international forums I'm part of there is usually some kind of country space where people can talk in their own language and about everything, like an off topic distraction. I don't know if it would work for doa, because of server space and so on. But I noticed my country seems to have more recast than legits (I don't know if I maybe be wrong, but the recast group has more members) so maybe if they could be attracted by the facility of not needing to know english they would join here before buying the dolls.

 

For what it's worth, the long standing problem with DoA's image is largely due to our policy of never discussing the reason why a member was banned. It's not anyone else's business, but banned individuals often post elsewhere about it and naturally the story is one-sided. We cannot refute their story, but we can say that it is in fact quite difficult to get banned from DoA.
For example, one can admit in a thread that one owns a recast purchased in ignorance. Not a banning offense, and won't even get deleted from the discussion. Listing it by name alongside legit dolls in your profile or trying to sell it in the marketplace? That would get you banned because it's lending legitimacy to a counterfeit, which is offensive to the original artist. It's pretty simple.

The number one thing I hear from newbies is "I saw a beautiful doll in a picture and had no idea what it was so I did a search for them." Imagine how much easier it would be if we just provided links. Much like having a template for pasting in all of the tags you usually use, it's easy enough to keep a few templates for info about your dolls.