BJD makers threatened by China-based counterfeiter / trademarks

The main reason I think people don't do this is because recasters also read this information and are able to change their products to make them harder to differentiate from the original.

 

I'm sorry to say that, but I wouldnt buy a doll without coa or original box, online history or something. I know its totally possible to be original, but when we can buy from people who have proofs, why would we buy from the questionable ones? Unless of course it was a grail or something hard to obtain.

Yes, I actually do understand this. But recasters will put their hands on original and find the differences anyway, this over protectionism hurt newbies more than anyone. If you see other collection communities (not dolls, but brand clothes, eletronics and so on), they are already over all this and just want people to know how to not be foolled.

 

Because it throws more than half of the community under the bus of never being able to sell a second hand doll again, thereby rendering that money unlikely to be used to keep the companies in business by buying new dolls? Because you have to have some basic trust in the users of a well regulated marketplace like here because we have a feedback system that's been running for a decade plus?

Honestly, this whole thread is just giving me a massive list of people I will never deal with in an MP transaction because they have no basic trust in the system here, so why should I trust them? Guess I'm off to ebay with my perfectly legit resin sales, then. Lovely and welcoming, here, amidst this massive crisis in the hobby when everyone should be sticking together, isn't it. Nice.

 

I am not saying people shouldnt trust who doesnt have this things, I am just saying I myself personally dont feel like buying cause as I mentioned before, is not like there few people who have the proofs so its kind of a market competition thing, if you dont have it you need to offer something to be able to compete, is how capitalism is, we dont buy things in unfavorable conditions just to be a good person or "nice", thats not how the real world works. Again, I do feel sorry for this, I dont think they are less legit because of this, but buying from someone who has coa/original box/etc you get those things for yourself too, so it is a great advantage.

 

I know the first time I tried to buy a doll, I was scammed. It wasn't because the doll was a recast, it was because the seller took my money and sent nothing. Just as easily, someone could have sold me a recast. I had no idea! This was many years ago, back in 2010. Now, newbies are most likely to be scammed because they will see promo photos of the most beautiful doll they've ever seen, from a foreign maker, and not available to purchase in their own country. It's likely now for a newbie will enter the hobby very easily by being scammed, having a recast doll but already sinking money into it and wanting to enjoy it. I'm very pro-artist, but I'm also not going to be mean to anyone that has been scammed and it's too late for them to do anything to recover their funds. This sort of thing hurts the hobby because it steals from artists and shuns away people that have been scammed.

On top of all that, there's this problem with the trade protections not being in place for legit/original companies that is going to muddy the waters more intensely. This is a pity on many fronts. I do wish that legit companies could somehow make their own trade association and agree among themselves to a set of policies based on mutual expectations of conduct. Together, they could have their own association to counter fraudulent vendors and protect their intellectual properties. In addition, together, they could put forth smaller amounts each for more legal council when needed. As collectors/consumers we would have a bit more protections for our investments. I fear that without some cooperation among original companies and artists, the hobby will become much too difficult to navigate and bjds will then be a fad that dies out.

Another issue I see becoming a trend from 3 D modeled sculpts. There is nothing wrong with this, but it does create an issue where it could be much more difficult to determine if a doll is copied as computer generated sculpts that are copied are not produced the same way as recasting. Recasting will reproduce tell-tale signs like different resin composition but the tool marks from sculpting by hand will still be there. It will be much easier for dolls to be offered that are copied and it will be very difficult for dolls with similar measurements to prove they are trying to keep a conformation to the popular standard sizing/measurements of dolls but are not making computer generated copies of other dolls.

In the meantime, the best we can do is be welcoming to newbies, offer recast education in a non-confrontational way, and do our best to acquire dolls we really, really like in case it's announced after the purchase that the dolls are computer 3 D copies of other dolls. We could also try to buy artist made dolls sold by the artist, where evidence of the sculpting process is well-documented. I'm sure others have ideas that would be helpful as well. I just hate to see all the mistrust among long-time collectors. In the end, greed, mistrust and ignorance can most certainly kill the hobby and bjds will only be remembered as a brief trend in the history of doll collecting.

 

So I've just realised not only are you very new here, but also that you have no marketplace access, which rather renders this whole conversation moot since you don't know firsthand how the MP here actually works, but nonetheless, for the purposes of education, I'll explain.

The feedback system here is trust based. This is not about buying things to be nice, it's about buying things using a long standing feedback thread personal to each individual involved. If you erode that trust system and don't use the feedback system, the MP here becomes useless to us all since you have no trust in the other person in the deal and no way of checking their previous sales.

For instance, if you and I entered into a transaction (breathtakingly unlikely after this conversation, but hey, hypothetical as a tool), the feedback system here allows you to check the twelve years of feedback I have in the marketplace, thusly putting to rest any fears you may have on how I'm likely to behave in a deal. I am free to do the same with your feedback thread and so we have a trusting accord based on the ability to see how we've behaved before. Your reputation is a key element in this marketplace and people will check feedback before dealing with you. So you see, coming to the situation with a zero trust attitude is an erosion of the current system and exceedingly unhelpful at a time when the hobby is in a state of some flux.

A key point of this whole thread has been finding ways to make the community more welcoming in order to show recast supporters how good it can be, this lack of trust attitude is in direct opposition to that concept and actually, makes the place less welcoming to existing members by alienating them from it more.

It's zero secret that I've been a big critic of DoA, in some areas, I still am, but I will say that the MP here has always been run with the best trust system available and run well as a result. There are many things that need to be changed here, but that is not one of them. I don't think, if you ever get access, that you'll find it to be the capitalist utopia of your dreams and if it ever reaches that, I think it would be time for it to die anyway.

 

Unfortunately, as harmful to trust-based marketplaces as it may be, I suspect that opinions like Flornosertao's are the inevitable conclusion of the rise of recasting, and even though it isn't at all fair to "old school"/pre-recast-era collections, it's a sound bet that we're only going to see that level of suspicion becoming more and more common as time goes on.

Call me a pessimist if you like, but I can very easily imagine a time when dolls without air-tight provenance and all the "expected documentation" to prove that may become practically unsellable, or devalued to the point that they're no more desirable than recasts themselves. Those of us with older, undocumented sculpts whose legitimacy simply can't be proven to modern satisfaction have to be realistic about that.

 

Well, the further consequences will be that the market will break down as we know it. The prices will plummet for those "not watertight" dolls, as they simply will be bought by people who do not care as much or are not as knowledgeable. So nothing will be won with this attitude on the long run.

Well, I guess we have to live with it and carry on. I, for myself, am happy to keep the dolls I have and there will be a life outside this community, if neccessary. I am not happy about the marketplace division between those who know enough about the "old school dolls" and those who only want to deal with fully documented dolls. I, for myself, would have absolutely no problem if I were interested in an older doll offered by an old member of this forum with sound feedback, but without watertight documentation.

 

I have no knowledge of 3D printed manufacturing marks, but in typical recasts you can tell the difference on the inside of the doll. Those selling without airtight proof could take photos of their doll's insides.

 

I get the bad feeling that eventually all types of legitimate BJD's will linger in the MP for a long time while recasters will continue to make recast BJD's at a cheaper price. Let's be real here if spending $600- 800 for a legit doll can be recasted for less than $300 or 200 some newbies would rather save money and go for a hard to find limited recast or a well liked recast (example Fairyland recast's). I just saw a video on YouTube where a collector paid $850 for her Feeple 65 normal skin Chole and she came with problems, she compared her to a recast tan skin Feeple 65 Siean, and to her and her boyfriend that video taped the comparison she was disappointed in her legit doll. And like she said she spent $850 and she should get a high quality product from Fairyland, but instead she did not. At the end of the day it is up to the individual what they spend their money on, and it seems like the recast maker's are gaining in sales.

 

Without knowing what the issues were (I wonder if she tried contacting Fairyland or her dealer), I would say that person just felt like they paid too much since they previously bought cheaper. Even when you buy from legitimate companies, you cannot (sadly) expect perfection.

Does anyone have any status on the situation with the recaster Luo?

 

I wont keep the talk since its off-topic (and mods already alerted about keeping this topic more focused on the trademarket instead of recast in general), but I have to say that what was said before doesnt change my opinion because:
1. I'm not talking about doa marketplace only, doa is not the whole community and not the only place affected by what is happening. 2. Trust doesnt change the fact when you buy a doll with proofs the proofs are passed to you, and you will have it in case you want to resell and so on (unlike the trust points).
3. I'm not saying in anyway people would need proofs to be part of the community, I dont think no one can demand this, I'm talking about my preferences as a buyer (and if this make you not want to deal with me, thats totally fine, as I said the market is quite competitive, you dont need me and I dont need you).
4. Also, I should say when I talk about prefering to buy a doll with proof, I'm not saying "full documentation". So please, dont misunderstand me.

As for the situation, @*NatTheCat*, there is no update in the processes since USA's status changed for "plubication/issue review complete" which doesnt include fairyland and means the processes will be published for opposition on day 19 of this month and no more luo related news since the copy of backplates and coas.

 

As for point 3, that is not a very productive attitude IMO.

Regarding quality for highly priced dolls: That is something companies really could work on. I think it is indeed something we can request as customers not to be carried out sloppily.

Another aspect could be something I mentioned somewhere in an earlier post: to change a bit the system of payment. Maybe by introducing some kind of basic layaway: the customer pays the most money (some kind of down payment) when ordering the doll, and the rest when he receives the message that the doll is ready for shipment.
Or something like that. Just to show a bit of goodwill on the seller's side.

 

I was really surprised to learn that the legit companies did not already have copyrights on their products and trade marks. I'm hoping that this will cause legit companies to realize how important it is to get copyrights and trademark all their work. Often something horrible has to happen to give a wake-up call, and then something good comes out of it in the end.

 

flornosertao, I saw people who were selling recasts with original boxes and origonal CoA of original model of the doll (I dont know where did they get them, but it is true). So its not like CoA prevents you from being scammed.

 

@flornosertao : But even if you're about to buy a doll on a different platform, it's still common sense to check out the seller. It's the internet. It's not hard to track someone's online history. No matter what you do, purchases in a virtual environment always rely on trust, whether you're purchasing from an individual, or a webshop.

You can buy them. I've seen people on Y!J sell the original papers of volks dolls, for instance.

 

I know my english is bad, but I feel sooooo misunderstood right now LOL

Ok, let me put it in a pratical situation to see if its easier to understand: In a group of friends I know and trust, x people put their doll for sale this week, I liked around 5 or less in terms of aesthetic, price and so on. How do I decide if I'm going to get it or not? I ask for the informations. "Does it comes with coa and/or original box? Do you have social media pictures of it from when you got it?"

I never said this is above trust. I never said it prevents people from being scammed. I'm not only talking about coa/box when I talk about proofs. I never even said I think thats how thing should be for everyone (I even included a "i'm sorry" cause I do feel sorry for people who dont have any proof). I, personally, just feel confortable this way. You know, some people like big dolls, while some like tinies, some like to buy the blank doll while others prefer the full kit. I like dolls with proofs. Why is that so weird?

I'm not even saying I would never ever buy a doll without some kind of proof, if it is a grail, a rare old sculpt, those seem worth the exception to me (and I mentioned this previously). I'm just saying that under normal circunstances I wouldnt buy a doll without proofs, and thats in part because I dont really need to since I didnt fell for any hard to find sculpt yet.

I was just saying what fits for me for the sake of the discussion but some people took it personal. Which keeps the thread active while there is no update, so I dont really mind, but I can see the mods hating me for the 54543454537335454 off-topic since the discussion started. SORRY mods!

 

Many of them did, however, Trademark registration (which is what the topic at hand is) is per country, not a global database, and is expensive. As we know, the companies are small and can't always afford the registration in their own country, much less China and the assortment of other countries where Luo filed registrations. And China disregards the copyright protections instituted by the rest of the world, so that's not going to help, either.

Beyond that, trademark registration only applies as long as you the holder protect it. If you don't engage in (potentially expensive) legal battles every time someone tries to use your trademark, and even one slips past you for whatever reason, then your trademark protection is invalidated. (I work with a local organization and often need to use the trademarked name and logo in things I'm producing for the event, and need to get permission for the use every time regardless.)

Yes, trademark and copyright protection is important, but you can't blame the companies for this.

 

Oh no, I think we all understood you just fine. What you're not understanding is that you have to take it personally. We all have to take it personally. When people stop taking it personally, you don't have a community anymore and without the community, you lose any ability to control things like the influx of recasts into the hobby, you lose safe marketplaces to buy and sell from, you lose a wealth of knowledge formed over the years, you lose, really, the crux of the hobby. Which is why we're all here to begin with, isn't it.

 

I really dont understand. Maybe my english is too poor to understand what you mean, but thats sure something I'm hearing for the first time in my life. Care to explain how that works?
You know, we have multiples communities when we live. There is the academic community, the hobbies community (which include bjd, but I dont really know many people who only have bjd as a hobby so its something even more extensive), the neighbors community, the faith community (whatever in a religious way or in some other kind of believe that you have a group you go to) and so on. But you talk as if the bjd community in particular, is so fragile - and somewhat different from all of the others communities - that anything could end it soon, even someone not taking things personally. I'm not grasping this whole concept yet.
Also, I may be new here, but I've heard about the daisy. Not really nice, hm.