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Company's taking costume ideas?

Jan 2, 2010

    1. Hmm... I can understand why some people might be riled up about this, and I think I would be too if I had created some outfit for a character of mine and some company came along, took my idea and started to sell the outfit for a profit without my permission.

      However, in saying that... I personally don't think Kuroshitsuji's mangaka will be too offended if found out about doll companies selling the clothes shown in the posts above. For one thing, as others have said, the designs are rather generic for the particular period they're meant to be from (correct me if I'm wrong, it's the Victorian period, right?? :sweat ). I bet the mangaka did research and got her inspiration from pre-existing Victorian outfits when she was designing the costumes for Ciel and Sebastian in her manga.

      Anyone could just as easily do research on clothing from the same time era and come up with similar designs to the ones she drew in her manga. Of course, it's rather obvious that Dollmore more or less copied Ciel's pink dress directly from the anime, but for the other outfits, they're not exact copies and rather generic looking.

      Now; it would be a different story if they started selling doll outfits that looked exactly like a truly unique, one of a kind costume that was created by someone from scratch and not inspired by any particular clothing style. Even then, there's no guarantee out there that someone else isn't going to think up some costume that looks similar to another 'unique' costume someone else created half way across the world.

      There's always going to be people that get upset about the whole copyright issue and will insist that you're/some company/etc is copying someone else's work. I've lost count of the number of times I've had people contact me with regards to illustrations I've had commissioned, stating plainly that I've stolen Devil May Cry Dante's design just because - heaven forbid - one of my characters happens to have short, silvery white hair (of a different style!) and blue eyes like Dante does *_*
       
    2. Alright, for those of you with opposing views. My point here if that some credit should be shown. The photoshoot to Angell-studio's outfit shows where the idea comes from. In later poses they bring in a second doll decked out to look like sebastian.

      I am not "riled" up about this subject nor am I extremely upset about anything. I was simply asking how people felt about companies taking ideas from comics, and where the copyrights ended.

      This is true, both artists could get their idea from another source, and yes hamlet holds a skull as well, but with a veil?

      Effigy: Thank you very much for your comment, and for making me aware where the legal lines are drawn.

      Smaug: I'd love to see the copy for kicks! And Thanks for the information on Angell-studio, that actually very interesting.

      Taco: Aye the green one is a bit of a stretch i am away, it was just to push my point for questions. I agree with you on the skull one. Knowing the story and characters helps to see where I'm going with that one. The photoshoot itself kinda brings in a "sebastian" like character.

      And for everyone, I am not getting onto companies, nor am I riled or upset about any of this. I posted this bored for information on where the legal lines draw and for other players to post similar situations is all, as stated in my first post. I can understand all of your views, again effigy thanks for the information.

      [​IMG]
       
    3. You know I did think about this as I was posting this board. To be honest I can completely see that. In the same respect if they don't give credit will it still have the same effect? That is not what I am sure of, but as a stunt to get people interested in the series etc I could see that. :D Thanks for your input.

      Aralyne: Lol XD i know, I see your point.

      MissTink: Thanks a lot for that image, meant to say so earlier! That one is certainly not altered very much XD. Ciels pink dress is very popular among the populous ^^; I think i see about 6-8 of them each con haha.
       
    4. The marketing photo, yes, I see the similarity. In the outfit itself? It's an enormous stretch. The jacket is nowhere near the same cut, the only similarities I see in the pants are the stripe down the side and the length. The stripe is of a different width, and the original drawing doesn't seem to have the tab with the button the doll's pants do. On the jacket, the sleeves are utterly and completely different; I see no chains on the original drawing, and the flare of the sleeve is at a completely different point along the arm which echoes an entirely different era; there's no fur on the drawing, but there is the cage bustle... which isn't on the doll. For the layout of the photo? Yeah. For the outfit? No.

      The second outfit is closer, but even there... if someone was trying to directly copy the design, it's not the best job of it. (The Dollmore design linked later is the closest of them all.)

      The third? Not seeing it beyond 'the suit is the same color'. The collar is different. One is single breasted, the other double; one has pockets, the other doesn't... heck, I have an olive green suit jacket somewhere that's similar to the second one, and have had it since the 80s.

      Speaking as someone who studied fashion and costume design in college? If things with the pretty significant differences I'm seeing between the drawings and designs there were considered 'shocking copies', I suspect the fashion world would be substantially more limited -- or way weirder -- than it is. (Or just bloodier and more litigious.)
       
    5. Glad I was able to say something useful^^

      Here are the two pages where Luts talks about their inspiration for that costume:

      http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x266/ajtopant/Luts_concept01.jpg
      http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x266/ajtopant/Luts_concept02.jpg

      (last three lines on the first page and first paragraph on the second)

      You can also see their concept drawing on the first page and see that the resulting dress is pretty close to the drawing. But the concept itself doesn't bear associations to Kuroshitsuji. The color scheme is close to the original Saint-Exupéry drawings, just like the big, contrasting sleeves and collar. It certainly has the Le Petit Prince wibe - while being miles away from becoming a copy.

      And acutally this can work as an example how totally different routes can give similar results. That's also why I'm wary about pointing fingers at clothes (or even dolls, without firm evidence. some pictures are just not enough for me, sorry) and assuming they are copies.

      Angell Studio itself is a very interesting contradiction, I think. The company is quite small, and they are admittedly fangirls of certain animes. The first downfall was because they introduced their new dolls at an Angel Sanctuary convention (or something like that...if I remember correctly), they were named Lucifer and Gabriel and were cosplaying those two characters. Their promo pictures were the same. Now the dolls themselves didn't look like they were based on the manga at all, and the clothes were not for sale (though later some people wanted to buy the clothes...and I don't remember if they agreed to sell a few pieces or not...). Generally, without the clothes they would have been just two dolls with imaginative names.

      The resulting collective rage (there is a thread about it somewhere in the Large Dolls size specific subforum) caused them to take off the dolls entirely from their homepage. For months they were only available to those who were desperate enough to mail them and ask about them.

      Now they still have pieces of clothing that was inspired by anime - though I have to agree with surreality that it's so different from the original that it's no way a copy to me. Just some inspiration, which shows the strongest in the actual photography and composition and not in the clothing. I beieve that they might do it because they can't help fangirling and cosplaying their dolls for characters they love^^ (well, at least that's the vibe I get from AS. I can't say anyting about other companies)
       
    6. Speaking specifically of lower-priced 'copies'-- in high fashion, having someone mimic your style is a sign of notoriety. You are famous enough for others to want to copy you!
       
    7. I don't think the first three examples show any significant similarity. The Dollmore one, though, that's a blatant copy on somebody's part (do we know which one came first?). It rubs me the wrong way, but I think you have to consider the relaxed Asian attitude toward copyright. I was always shocked to find mainstream bookstores selling doujinshi right alongside the original material they were based on!
       
    8. In my opinion as an art major who does fashion design on the side: if you are clearly replicating an outfit designed by and existing under a copywrite owned by someone else, they better know about it, and you better be paying royalties. Final. These laws exist for a reason-- so that designers and inventors don't get screwed over by someone taking credit for their work.

      That said, some leniency is needed. For example, that third comparison that the OP posted. The design is so generic, and the only thing that I see most similar to the first outfit is the color. It really doesn't look like they copied the outfit directly.

      The first outfit was obviously referenced, and they should be giving credit to the original designer. As for royalties and copywrite issues, they really should talk to the original designer first and clear these issues from the table. Then again, maybe they already did, and we just don't know it. Maybe once they were given the OK from the original designer, maybe putting up credit was optional. I honestly don't know that much, that would be between the respective owners to decide.
       
    9. I'm really not seeing the referencing on the first outfit outside of the photo layout and the most basic of similarities -- it has a jacket, short pants, and a bustle. The combination of jacket, short pants, and a bustle is... not new. All the garment details are vastly different between the two, from the sleeves to the collar to the construction of the bustle to the very eras these items reference. There's also no color reference to the drawing -- while I don't know if there is one that is identical or not, not being at all familiar with the manga the illustration is taken from -- that could be another profound difference or similarity, but we don't know either way from the images presented.
       
    10. I do think they're probably "inspired by" Kuroshitsuji, but I don't think it's a big deal. I personally thought it was kind of cool...>_> Though I don't condone copying things. I think that since they're making clothing rather than drawing comics it's not really something you can complain about to much. (I've got to say though, Dollmore's dress is pretty brazen. o_0) I'm not going to get in a big way over it though, but I may think differently if it were my designs.
       
    11. I see similar styles with obvious inspiration from the books, but not exact copies. If these graphic novel designers were designing and making doll clothes and Dollmore was copying them, it might bother me, but the graphic novel designer is making money producing books, not doll clothes or human costumes. Where does the graphic novel designer get his/her inspiration for the drawings? From doll or human clothes? From paintings or illustrations? From people they see on the street, the theatre, the movies, or literature? Artists draw inspiration from almost everywhere, so I think it would be difficult to know exactly the true origin of these designs.
       
    12. To be honest the Dollmore one doesn't bother me because both the dress in Kuroshitsuji and the dress Dollmore are selling remind me of the dress in My Fair Lady...
       
    13. That's exactly what I thought as well.
       
    14. I was thinking that myself, but the only dress I could call to mind was the white dress she wore to the horse race. o_0 How funny that other people would think that. Dollmore's dress doesn't really bother me, I just think they could have added some stuff or changed some details to make it different.:sweat
       
    15. The Dollmore dress is the only copy. Le Petite Prince was clearly attributed and should be a non-issue. The rest? Victorian and Edwardian design. I can link you to literally HUNDREDS of period pictures that are closer to those designs than the alleged manga design. Well...uh, with the "man-bustle" picture I probably had better not since those particular pictures are Victorian erotica!
       
    16. And if you guys take a look at the Dollmore listing you'll see that they indeed say the dress was inspired by My Fair Lady:
      http://www.dollmore.net/shop/step1.php?number=6765

      There was (is) a huge discussion about it (and other dresses) in the General discussion: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287254&highlight=dollmore+dress+copy

      Here's Audrey Hepburn's dress for reference:
      http://marziucciaaa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/audrey_hepburn_my_fair_lady.jpg
      http://www.karen.jendrzejek.com/my_fair_lady.jpg

      I think it's highly possible that the mangaka was inspired by this dress and Dollmore in turn was inspired by the manga.

      And that would be another reason how all this dress-copy thing is all too shady. We see two resembling dresses. But who knows where the origins actually lie....there might be a string of clothes all resembling each other all inspired by one another...leading back to the foggy past (especially with period costumes)
       
    17. The original pics that Peachgirl posted look kinda like kuroshitsuji outfits. The first one is pretty similar, but it's not completely identical, which I think is fine because they're only taking an idea and building on it. The fact that they are blatantly trying to sell it a a Ciel outfit with the poses etc. gets me, because they're trying to make people buy it because it looks like a kuro outfit without giving credit where its due. The second one ( the luts outfit) seems to be coincidence that they look similar. It's less Loli and more period dress. The third outfit -Ciel's dress- is obviously a copy. They should give credit and sell it as a cosplay ONLY. I don't really care if they don't pay any money to the original artist, because it's freely available for people to copy and reproduce themselves at home. They really, really need to give artistic credit if it's not their creation however!!
       
    18. Thank you for this. I can see where something different in a draft can end up somewhere completely different even close to something else. In my original post I did state that the companies do change things about the outfits. I did not say they were all exact copies as everyone seems to think :/. I quote:

      "taking the outfits from kuroshitsuji, altering them a little and then selling them".

      Now as far as the advertisement method of their photos. That could have driven the nail home with the similarities between the two. Perhaps it was bad call on their part to advertise it so close to Kuro to begin with, or maybe it was a good thing. I'm not saying every detail is exact to the manga, I am saying however that the outfits displayed are -similar-.

      Thank you for the story about their dolls. To be honest, I don't think names are copyrightable especially Gabriel and Lucifer, two names very prominent in the Christian religion and bible. Though that is sad that people were that outraged by it :/
       
    19. This is very much something i want more information on!! I definitely considered this. I am completely unaware what copyright laws are in Japan! Let me know if you know any more then this ^^

      Cari: Thank you for your input, it was very helpful ^^
       
    20. Check out this post from the previously linked thread:

      A quote from one of the linked articles:

      And, this is OT, but scary: