Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

The same way that the person who posts the picture is responsible for people not liking it, even if they did not intend for it to be seen by someone who does not like it. Or, to be more clear: if someone posts a picture of a doll with a sloppy face-up done in nail-polish and sharpies, with clothing that doesn't fit it, posed in a manner that makes it look like it has 2 broken legs... should they really, truly be surprised if someone later comes to them and says 'dude- some people think your doll looks kind of awful. And they're kind of surprised that you'd use things on it that will stain the resin.....'?

Similarly, if I post on the Other Place a comment that says 'well, that doll looks like a dog vomited on it, and I wouldn't want it in my house', should I be surprised if someone comes up to me at a convention in a few months time and says 'Oi! How dare you talk about my *insert doll name here* like that!!' Hell, that's actually happened to me before... and I was a little surprised- but only because I had no idea I lived so close to someone else with a BJD....

In both cases, being prepared for the fallout is the key, and both are, ultimately, the responsibility of the person who pressed the 'submit' button- doesn't matter if it was comment or picture. Like I said (and you said, too, actually): the responsibility goes both ways.

All I am asking (in the vague, 'appealing to the cosmos' kind of way) is that people have a realistic expectation of what will happen when they do something. I don't even care what that 'something' is- it's the unrealistic expectations that get on my nerves.

Also:

Specifically commenting on that one phrase- well- we don't all live close enough for that to be possible, and some places (like DoA) have rules in place to actually prevent that from happening. Trust me, if they didn't, people would say these things. Other forums and websites are proof of that.


EDIT: This was posted while I was writing mine... but I'd like to respond to it:

(Er.... dude.... you just admitted to snarking. How is that different to what we do? I mean, assuming that you don't intend for the person who wrote the fic to read the things you said about it.....? Isn't it still concievable that one of your friends might pass that on one day? Can you truly be 100%, unerringly certain that they wouldn't? )

 

Actually regardless of posting it here, they can't. People are allowed to say 'hey, you might want to take a look at this tutorial how to do that better.' This is a forum full of those strangers you don't trust. You can't trust everyone here to be nice away from here simply because they hang around here, just as you can't say everyone who hangs around snark forums is evil and rude.

 

Just another thought: People keep saying that dolls and owners are seperate therefore the owner should not be offended if their doll is the one being made fun of.
You are essentially saying that their photography, sewing, artistic skills and tastes are laughable - but ...you don't think the person should be offended? That doesn't make sense.

No the doll is not the person but it is the object which they pour their creativity on to - a representation of their time, enjoyment and skill, regardless of the skill level. Yes it's insulting when you make fun of it.


You are also saying that if the person learns that their doll/work is being ridiculed they should avoid learning more about it or the people posting and avoiding seeking it out. You also state that alternatively they should stop posting altogether. You are saying they should not fight for their rights, stand up for themselves, take action or take part in the community.

...seriously. That is some kind of messed up thinking right there.

The offended party has every right to find out who and where their work is being posted and made fun of just as they have the right to ask that it be taken down from there.

 

I think you misunderstood me; I know no one's gone and committed suicide over this. I was trying to relate a previous post about how some snark sites make threads to go at an individual, and I had been trying to say that maybe taunting like that might cause someone to feel really bad about themselves - like bullying has been leading people to take their own lives. I'm hoping this doesn't become the case.

I'm glad that there are others sticking up for people getting put down on these sites.

 

It's been fun talking to you, dude. I hope we cross paths on here again some time.

 

This way of thinking is one of the things they first taught us in art school - I even specifically remember my life drawing teacher saying, "Just because your drawing sucks doesn't mean you suck."
For example: chances are, if somebody is linking to your (you/your in general) dolls because they think that they have ugly faceups, and many people agree with them, then chances are the dolls do in fact have ugly faceups. However, they don't think you're a terrible person because of it.
I understand feeling hurt because somebody doesn't like your work and can point out a lot of flaws in it, especially if you just finished and it's still shiny and new and wonderful to you. However, if you really want to improve, you'll have to take what they're saying to heart, even if it's not worded in the nicest way. If you're just looking for praise for your effort, then stick to showing non-artistic family and friends.

I completely and utterly agree with this, except I see this sort of situation in people's posts all around the forums. It's like they never could cope with the fact that people were mean to them years and years ago so they use dolls as an escape, which is honestly quite frightening. It also seems like the people with this sort of mentality are the people who believe there shouldn't be any snark in the world at all, which is impossible due to human nature.
People are going to be mean to you. This might include people saying mean things about your dolls. However, this doesn't mean that everyone in the world is out to get you all the time. All you can do is accept it and shrug it off.

 

I think they have every right to be offended. I brought it up however to remind people to not confuse a remark about a doll to be a remark about the owner's character. Your artistic choices are definitely personal commitments, but whether you like skirtbois (whose owners sometimes get looked down upon depending on the crowd) or supergawthdolls or anything does not directly mean anything about you. Someone is not making a direct remark about who you are when they say something like, "I really don't like this company's molds." Alternatively, I think people are in agreement here that you are certainly right about standing up for your rights-- it ties into the principle of free speech.

However, they and I are cautioning people against being so destroyed when bad things happen and not be so quick to assume that just because your doll was posted on a nice forum it means it's safe from critique. Hell, doll owners have shown up on People of Walmart. I, of course, thought the face-up I did was adorable since it was my latest work-- so I was completely taken off guard when I found a snark thread about it. Then I revised my face-up and, looking back on that old face-up, am glad I started going in a new direction with my face-ups after the snark thread. In fact, I'm so proud of my revision simply because it looks so much better that only the revision is in my commissionable artist gallery-- not the original one that I thought was really good until its flaws were pointed out.

I didn't roll over, take the remarks and cry for forgiveness. I was a good sport about it, rethought my face-up, and delivered better to my liking. The best part was that it's not like the snark forum is made up of unforgiving jerks-- after I posted up my revision, basically everyone told me, "Cool, good job." I stuck up for myself without crumbling into a mess, got better, and actually gained friends from it all.

 

I think this is a difference of perspective, in the end. In my personal view, we're all targets, all the time. It does, absolutely, suck -- but no matter how much it sucks, it still is just a matter of how things are. I mean this in regard to the serious as well as the silly things, also. Is it fair? Probably not. But the only way to not become a target is to just not interact in any way. Maybe I've just had a little too much of a hammering from the world out there, but I tend to see the nine days out of ten that I don't get dumped on as more important than the tenth, when I do.

For instance, there are certainly people who I've posted comments to in a perfectly calm, rational (albeit wordy) manner on this very subforum, who have taken it as some sort of horrible personal attack that means I want to eat their first born. (Again, not you -- this is in other threads of yore.) I'm talking about full-on freaking out with personal attacks and accusations flying over the fact that someone strongly disagreed with their opinion. Unless the person carries their grudge around like a sack of wet sand -- and plenty of people out there do, often less subtly than they imagine which is sometimes unintentionally hilarious -- I write it off as being that tenth day for all involved. I don't see the snark thing as much different, depending, again, on why it's happening.

 

I've never seen anyone say that they shouldn't own a doll or that they have no right to own it, only that they should really rethink what they're doing if they're continually ruining their dolls with harmful faceup materials and so forth... and even then, it's their right to ruin their dolls how they please. Still no insults directly to the person.

 

No. No it's not. You may perceive it as such, but that doesn't make it fact.

 

Cosign. I didn't even know there were doll snark forums, and now that I know I'm gonna do my best to forget it. I once had a friend--and i do believe she meant well, but--tell me a fanfic of mine had been ripped up on a fic snark forum, and I was almost as upset with her as i was with the event, cos I'd've been much happier in ignorance. Ditto for dollies.

 

To be fair I think I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times but...well people snark differently what can you do? I'd rather the mods make sure that the actual rules aren't broken instead of going around and slapping the hands of someone who says someone doesn't deserve a doll or whatever other slight. I'm honestly of the opinion that no one deserves a doll anyway as they're luxury items. And besides if you buy an expensive doll and then 'ruin' it why do I care? I might point it out but you're the one that has to live with a 'ruined' doll.

Since this argument is going in circles in can probably be summed up as thus: Some people do not like snark. Some people do. Snark and drama is prevalent in almost every single hobby and is a facet of life really and there is nothing you can do about it. No one is going to change anyone's mind on this.

In the grand scheme someone snarking your doll on a private forum is a very minor thing and if you find yourself linked back there one day by your "friends" then I would suggest not taking the steps to register an account as you are then knowingly exposing yourself to the snark and have no one to blame but yourself.

 

I'm a member on the snark community, although I'm pretty much just a lurker because I have a tendency to say stupid things and have the common sense to keep my mouth shut because if I say something stupid I deserve to be called on it. But, if anything this thread has made me want to participate more, because if people are going to think I'm some horrible, awful person for just being a member and getting a laugh out of what other people have done to their dolls, then I'm going to do something to be earn that opinion of me.

Its also because as I've been reading this thread, and thinking about my experiences of what I've read on that forum, I've realized that the regular posters over there are awesome people who don't deserve half of what is being said about them. I have watched at that board has gathered around and supported other members who are having a hard time and have seen awesome advice handed out. The members of that board are so far from being bullies that I'm actually slightly annoyed to have seen them called that. The people on that board are, as far as I can tell on the internet, people who I would be honored to call my friends. I can't say that about the vast majority of the people on DoA.

Now for the victim blaming, which I'm fully admitting to doing, because I'm not at all a nice person. In case people are confused, we collect dolls. Large expensive hunks of plastic. This is not, as they say, serious business. This is not your sexuality, your race, or any other of a endless list of things that is serious. This is about as far from serious business as you can get (with the exception of business transactions, which as they are business transactions are serious and should be treated as such). If your self-worth is so tied in to what someone thinks about your hunk o' plastic, you need to put it down, step away from the internet, and seek help because you obviously have some self esteem issues. Just because someone thinks your doll is ugly, badly dressed, or whatever does not mean they think the same about you. You are not your doll and I promise you that your doll doesn't care that I think it looks like my cat pooed on it.

 

In Sweden we call what they do in these communities "skitprat" which roughly translates into "talking shit" or "shit talking".
Where I come from it is something shameful and very much frowned upon. It does not matter where or why you do it, if it is legal or not or if it is valid. As soon as it turns into "skitprat" it holds as much value as human excrement and people doing it are... well assholes.
Even if you are "venting", as some of you are calling it, to a friend in private it is still seen as something bad.

I have done my fair share of "skitprat" in my life but it is not something I am proud of and certainly not something I try to justify in any way. I truly believe that there are better ways to ventilate your frustrations or negativity than to participate in discussions where people are trying to outdo each other in witty nastiness about other peoples choices, talents (or lack thereof) or taste in dolls.

I am not judging anyone for doing it or even for liking it. I just do not think it is nice, that is all.

 

I've been told I shouldn't be allowed dolls, and I've never used harmful materials. I've modded dolls to MY liking, so what's wrong with that? Removing a nose may seem like a 'ruined' doll to some, for me, it's a crucial character. I also have an expert friend who would be able to sculpt a new nose if I wanted. So heck, is it really ruined then? But that doesn't stop people from saying things about ME. That I shouldn't be allowed dolls. Because yes they have said such things, in the past, present and future. And not just to me.

 

If someone posts pictures of their doll/their mod/their faceup and asks 'what do you think?' or 'do you like it/him/her?'
That is fair game for honest opinion.
DoA is full of gushy squee and people crack down on people being 'mean', and I think it's ridiculous. If you ask for my bloody opinion, you're going to get it. And if you're offended- well boohoo, next time dont ask.

 

As a member of at least one of the mentioned "snark" communities...

(THIS)*∞

 

I sense you are bitter toward The Other Place because a few people said a few mean things.

In general - honestly, why let what someone else has said about your dolls get to you so badly? Why let what someone else has said about YOU get to you? Do you still love your dolls? Play with them and enjoy them? Then why does it matter what a stranger on the internet thinks?

I also keep seeing people say "no one has the RIGHT to say anything bad about another person's doll". That isn't true at all. In fact, people need to stop saying "they don't have the right", because we do - in fact - have every right to voice our opinions about things we don't like. Just as I am allowed to say I do not like doll x, someone else is allowed to say they don't like my opinion of doll x. That's fine. Everyone is allowed their own opinions and voicing them is perfectly healthy behavior.

I personally lurk in several non-doll related snark communities, because I get a giggle out of them. I don't usually snark publicly myself because everything I have to say on the subject is usually already said. But I will readily admit to snarking with friends over IM. Does that make me a bad person? No, it makes me human.