Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

I really feel that there's a difference between being constructively blunt and being snarky.

If you'd painted a picture of a ballet girl your teacher could say "Shit that's ugly" and maybe offer some constructive pointers. That would be relatively blunt criticism.

I however find it less likely that your teacher would say the following: Shit that's ugly, my 2 year old makes cleaner brush strokes than that The way you've painted that girl makes her look like a hippopotamus on crack who believes she's a daffodil. What the f**k are you doing here? Shouldn't you just go home and hide in a hole so as to not hurt the collective eyes of the world?
That would be snarky in a way that would serve little to no purpose.

Yes when somebody posts a picture on the internet they should be aware that they run the risk of ridicule. However there exists a social contract in most societies which calls for at least small amounts of politeness, somehow the internet seems to be exempt from said contract.
The fact that something isn't illegal doesn't mean that it should be done, everything from how we greet each other to how we converse is guided by rules which aren't necessarily written down (though I sure would appreciate a handbook). Snark and harsh criticism isn't the same thing and publicly critiquing something that wasn't offered up for critique accomplishes nothing.

 

Wow - this thread is a real eye opener for me. I actually had no idea that snark sites exist. My initial reaction is - really? and then why? Why would anyone take the time to just make fun and ridicule something someone else has posted because they are happy about owning it, or proud of their first attempt at a face up or proud that they finally have a doll or they just want to be part of a community / hobby? I find it disturbing and sad that there are people whose idea of fun is to rip apart something that someone else has shared online.

 

There is a marked difference between some people saying "this doesn't look good" to your doll/work being basically displayed as a joke and linked to through various sites for the express purpose of being laughed at. This is what I am talking about - and that kind of thing hurts.
How can you say that it doesn't reflect on the owner at all - that it's not about them?
Either some people are completely out of touch with what they have the right to feel or completely out of touch with how other people feel.

 

I comment only on the dolls that I like. If I see a faceup I think is not pleasing or a doll who's clothes are ill constructed or I have nothing nice to say, I keep it to myself and don't comment. If the person is asking for tips then I guess it's ok to comment constructively on their post but I don't think it is fair to ever flame someone else's work just because it is not your taste. There is a difference between critique and hurtful comments. Something meant to belittle the other person is bullying and just plain wrong.

 

No one is stopping you from buying dolls or doing whatever you want with them. There will exist people who don't like your dolls. There are people who don't like my dolls. There are people who don't like those dolls over there. They will talk about them. There are threads about dislike for people who mod limited dolls and it has been said off handedly that 'some people shouldn't be allowed to have dolls' because of 'ruining' them. By the way I am not speaking about you directly, just pointing out. That doesn't mean they are taking away your right to own a doll. They aren't writing to companies to tell them not to sell to you.

Its all personal opinion if someone does or does not like your noseless doll. Yes, he is Voldemort and I don't think Voldemort is particularly pleasing to look at either so sorry, I'm not going to like your doll. That doesn't mean I don't like you. I'm actually pretty indifferent about you. I know we aren't going to agree. You have every right to buy whatever doll you want and do whatever your little heart desires with it. I reserve my right to express my dislike. We're going out of our way to stay out of your way, you are the one going to the trouble of going there knowing what the site is and what is possibly there.

 

Do you actually have absolutely no remorse that you've made another person feel bad? That you've maybe diminished their enjoyment of the hobby? Do you have no empathy with another human being? Can't you see yourself in her shoes? and maybe sympathise? - instead of attacking her. Honestly.

 

I want to reply to this, because I get a sense that it's addressed to all the snarkers.

No, I, at least, feel no remorse for making "another person feel bad". Why? Because unless they go digging, they won't be hurt about it, and the need for a "safe space" (to use a melodramatic term) to let off some steam about hideously funny and funnily hideous happenings in the hobby, pretty much outweighs one person feeling a bit low for a second or two. Would you wander into a Stuckist meeting and start crying because they were insulting Tracey Emin? No, you'd know from the outset that that was what they were likely to do, and you'd just let it wash over you.

Yes, I have empathy with other human beings. I have lots of it. In fact, when people get this sensitive about something that is this utterly trivial, I get quite concerned about them and, if I'm in a position to do so, try to get them to calm down and look at it from a less personal perspective. If you have a thrombie over someone calling your dolls ugly, and joking that they should be taken off you by the RSPCDolls, then you must be putting your mental health at serious risk whenever you try on clothes in a shop, have an opinion, or do anything that doesn't quite toe the party line. I mean, think about it - If you're in a cubicle and trying on clothes, then have to open the door to go to the mirror, what if someone else in the changing room sees you? What if they have a giggle with their friends and call you a whale, or a pig-in-a-wig, or whatever?

I've been snarked on the snark forums (I'm a member, and did a quick search for my username after reading this thread.) It was more directed at me as a person than at my dolls (Which is expected, since I've got some pretty strange views). It's not the end of the world. I had a bit of a laugh at my own pompous attitude, then clicked the back button and went right back to sticking the metaphorical fork in someone else. Because that's what snark comms are about.

And finally, again, if being talked about ruins your enjoyment of the hobby. Stop. Posting. Pictures. I'm pretty certain that for every photoset on this forum, there's someone chatting with their mates about how much they hated it.

 

I think you're taking this to an extreme it doesn't need to go to.

I have been snarked and made fun of and I've been told my dolls are "truly horrifying" by someone else. I know what it's like to be in the other person's shoes. But does that mean I can't poke fun at something I don't like? Hell no. I have empathy for other people. And I try to help when someone is reacting badly to being snarked - because it is NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

You are acting like all snarkers are heartless people who stomp on puppies and make little girls cry for fun. That is not true at all; in fact, a lot of snarkers I see are just trying to help, albeit bluntly. Many are pointing out legitimate flaws that could use some work and it is up to the owner to listen or not to listen. Saying all snarkers have no empathy for other humans is like saying all BJD collectors are weeaboo anime nerds with no lives. It just isn't right to generalize like that.

And again I ask - if you love your doll, and you don't want to change it, why does it matter what someone else thinks?

 

Um, wow. I wasn't attacking her. I was stating a few facts about my feelings, just as everyone else is and trying to point out that its not as bad as it is being made out here, mostly by people who haven't really been there at all or have shown they have a long standing grudge.

I do have empathy and I have been in her shoes, just so you know. I haven't had my dolls talked about, but I have had my art poked fun at. Yeah, the things said hurt, but I also took the things they were saying and worked harder. If they think its so bad then I need to step back and look at it, and me feeling like their right means I'm not completely satisfied either. It made me put a more critical eye to what I put up on the internet. If I can't handle people expressing dislike then I don't post it online. I show my close personal friends, ask for opinions to fix it if I'm not happy with it, whatever. I like warm happy comments and praise sure, but without having people tell me I suck, I'd have never put forth more effort to get better.

 

Hmm. I have to admit I come at this topic from the end where I find Encyclopaedia Dramatica hilarious but also educating. It's like a huge laundry list of Stupid Stuff Not To Do On The Internet. So I have less than absolute sympathy for people who are offended by other people's opinions. Personally, if someone was bashing some aspect of my doll, I would take a good look at my doll and decide if 1) they were totally wrong and my doll is fine as she is or 2) actually they may have a point, I could do X, Y, Z to her to improve her.
The world is not a magical land full of unicorns and rainbows where no-one says anything mean or hurtful. The sooner people learn to accept the honest criticism and dismiss the stupid, the better.

 

I truly absolutely wish people would stop saying things along the lines of "Snarking on those sites means bullying" because you are diminishing the perceived impact of bullying by making such a comparison.

Bullying is usually done by someone in a position of power, whether it's financial, social, etc. Bullying is repeated harassment. Those kids at school who are traumatised for life? Or those employees who take their own lives? They are victims of bullying. They are not in a position to escape the constant, daily harassment. They are often left feeling like they have no options.

You have Den of Angels. It's your safe zone where most everyone in the hobby interact in. You have a snark forum, which requires a sign up and log-in to access, and has a small minority of the community. They snark about everything there. You have options. YOU HAVE MANY OPTIONS. Even if a stupid friend tells you that your dolls are being snarked about there, you still have many options. You can choose not to sign up. You can choose to participate. You can choose to ignore.

If you join the snark forum and you participate, then yes, you may be subjected to bullying. Snark sites are a lot like high school; if people dislike you, they can be horrible about it. But unlike high school or your workplace, you have the option of leaving without losing your employment or the opportunity for education.

So yeah. I would ask people to think twice before treating a snark forum about dolls as the equivalent to bullying.


(And yes, I have enough empathy to recognise why people might get hurt when their dolls are being snarked about. But no, I do not agree that this is evil and is an act of bullying.)

 

Just replying to this because I was thinking about it earlier today.

In regards to snarking on faceups... Well, lets face it, some faceups, especially first faceups, are BAD. There are so many times I see someone post their first faceup, and say along with it "It looks so good! It's perfect!" And the only comments they get, because this is DOA, are along the lines of "That looks great!" when it really doesn't. Then this person thinks they're an awesome faceup artist who gets it perfect on their first try, and they never ever ever bother trying to improve their skills. Which, by the way, is a kick in the face to people who've actually worked to refine their skills.

If this person then finds out they've been snarked on on a wank forum, maybe it'll be a heads up that maybe they need to actually, you know... practice before they consider themselves awesome.

If your doll shows up on a snark forum, you can whine and cry about it, or you can use it as motivation to try again. ... Or you can do nothing. But I'm trying to say something like it's what you take from it.

 

If you were really supremely butthurt on the other forum that shall not be named then talk to the moderator there about it. Years ago people were laying into me personally and I messaged them about it and they dealt with it.
However on the doll side of things: If it wasnt for their snark against the clothes I was making at the time I would have never pushed myself to get better at it. Thats how I work, someone makes jokes and I can take that kind of criticism. Now I have so many customers and people telling me nice things on a daily basis that I can afford some constructive snark. And I take it alot better than I used to as well.
Its kind of like the pushing your doll around in a supermarket trolley analogy, where the owners cant believe that theyre being stared and laughed at. If you present yourself in a public forum someone is going to pick up on your main quirks. I went to to a meet up years ago; I was the oldest there, male, who had brought his mother and I have alot of heavy scarring...Who ISNT going to say something about me after?? Its naive to think otherwise.

 

I think comments like you mention in your post are totally thoughtless and rude. There are plenty of faceups, modifications and outfits that I really dislike, but I would never say anything. They aren't my dolls. It's none of my business what other people do to the dolls they are excited about. I would expect someone to either refrain from commenting if they didn't like what I did to my doll, or comment if they wanted to if they liked it. The whole idea behind these forums is to share our love of dolls and our own special and original ideas. I love looking at everyone's personalizations. They are all so unique and make each doll's look so different from others. That's the idea behind BJDs, isn't it? And I've gotten some great ideas from photos. Many times I think WOW I never would have thought of that, what a great idea. So keep those pics flowing of all your wonderful creations. And BTW I don't belong to those other forums for exactly that reason.

 

This is an excellent point. If I know the person based on personal contact off the forum or contact with the person on the forum, I would send them a PM making suggestions about what they could work on to improve. If I don't know the person and think I can help, I would send them a PM asking them if they would like some constructive comments on their work. If they reply, I tell them. If they don't, I let it go.

 

[My comment is not directed at the writer of this post but rather the general opinion that has been brought up by the many and that this post illustrates.]

What on earth is it that makes people in this thread equate harsh useful criticism with making fun of something?

Let's take the example of a first face-up in the critique forum. It may be god-awfully ugly (I've seen a few).

Critique: Your brushwork is a bit heavy, try thinning the paint. Your pastels are a bit muddy, you might want to lay them on in more layers. Your colours seem a bit off, you might want to borrow a make-up book from the library.

Criticism point out flaws and generally aid in betterment.

Snark: Haha, your face-up is so f***ing ugly, I mean this really shows how some people should never ever pick up a brush... omg I hope the fugly isn't contagious, talk about ruining a good mold.

Snark, though it conveys that the face-up is ugly, doesn't point out the flaws and it doesn't aid in betterment. It serves no point.

 

Nope. And I say that from the perspective of having been in those shoes. Had one of my dolls pointed and laughed at and my personal views, tastes and work ethic skewered and savaged. I still don't have one whit of remorse or sympathy, and you know why? It's just a doll, this is just the internet, and I'm a big girl that doesn't expect other people to feel shamed into being nice to me. Put your violin and your bleeding heart away, buck up and deal with it.

 

Except if they didn't post in the critique section, giving constructive criticism isn't allowed. Even bobbieoh11's suggestion:

can get a person in trouble on DOA. If my theoretical newbie artist is so sure of her skills that she didn't post in the critique forum, but in the regular gallery, how is she ever going to know she's not all that great? Sometimes people really just need to be smacked over the head with the truth before they'll get it.

 

I have quite a few problems with your point.

1, Why does she need to be told she's not all that great?
2, Why should someone smack her over the head?
3, Who gets to decide what's head-smacking worthy?

The list goes on...

The problem is the same as with shows like American Idol. At some point or other the young singer has asked her mother/father/aunt/friend if she sings well and instead of telling her the truth they've said that the young singer has a great voice. Once the singer comes to a real critique she gets ripped a new one.

If the newbie artist posted her work in the regular gallery and people chose not to reply because they thought the face-up was ugly then the newbie might ask for a critique.

What still baffles me is that people feel they have a right to: judge something they weren't asked to judge without having any qualifications, impart their wisdom to the person they see as the offender not in the form of a well-meaning critique but meanly and simply for their own amusement.

The point still stands: If the newbie post an awful face-up in the gallery, who does it hurt? Claiming that snarking is for the benefit of the victim is a laughable concept. Even if one in an illusion of grandeur think that one's opinion must be imparted upon the world without having been asked to why not choose to do it as a critique rather than a snark, as a critique it atleast has the possibility to be worth the time it takes to write the comment.

 

My reply will just be a re-iteration of what's been said already. If it's going to cause the person being bashed great emotional distress because someone didn't like their doll and decided to say it on another site, they shouldn't put the work out there on display. The point shouldn't be that the snarkers should feel bad for what they do, that's irrelavent; If you know your sensitive to harsh critisisim through to downright mockery, the wider world may not be the place to display your passion.

The internet just happens to be, in it's darkest forms, a bastion for concentrated trolling. Just as the person being bashed is within their "rights" to feel offended, so to are the snarkers within their own "rights" to say it. I'm not talking about niche individual cases where horrible, personal attack A was made;that wasn't what the topic was about, and is to specific to bring into a more general debate. Just, in general, this is what happens in the world. Sometimes, it's taken to far- that can't be denied. Mostly, it just seems so trivial a thing to get worked up about.

No-one has a privilige that frees them from being judged by any and all whom look upon their dolls. Yes, people spend hours making&painting&photographing and coming up with backstories. In the end, not everyone really gives a damn. Nor should they have to- people, as a whole, just will not react that way regardless of how precious the possesion is to it's owner.