Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

If your enjoyment of the hobby is going to be based around what other people online think of your dolls, then you're doing it wrong.

So long as you enjoy your dolls, what does it matter if a bunch of people don't? If some other people online like the dolls, then BONUS.

If everyone else's opinions are so important to you, go pay for the beautiful faceup and clothes and put the effort into beautiful photoshoots to get them to like you. Not everyone's going to like the same cup of tea you do, especially if it's not the general consensus of 'pretty'.

Personally, if I see something that's terribly executed I'm probably going to laugh at it. Everyone pays a lot of money for these dolls and even if we didn't, we're all entitled to our own opinions be they harsh or not, that's just how it goes. If you like your dolls anyways ignore people who don't share your opinion and continue having fun. It's not that hard.

 

I really don't care. But I was posting my experience to show that this BS that they are only being nice and making comments towards the dolls is untrue. That they are only making fun of people who deserve it/Scammers/etc... again, untrue.

Why does it matter that someone is making fun of me and other people? Because it's wrong, it's mean, and I am not one to stand by and watch people do so. Because it does hurt people, there are consquences to their actions, but people think that being behind a computer means they don't have to responsiability for their actions. And the bigger problem is that people take this idea that they have the right to give an opinion on a doll, and twist it into being able to make fun of said doll and making fun of the owner, which is a far different thing then stating an opinion.

 

If any of you have ever been out into the real world, you will know that people can be mean. They will say things to and about you that are much more hurtful than anything people will ever say about an inanimate object that you own. That's the difference. Those forums are to discuss dolls- and despite some people's unusual beliefs, dolls are simply lumps of resin that don't have feelings, and can't get upset. Unless the owner has done something really stupid (scamming, copying, pretending to be dead, etc.) usually, the conversation isn't directed at the owner. The world isn't sunshine and rainbows, people. DOA is a safe place where people can only say nice things about your dolls. Outside of this happy little bubble, people will express their real opinions. Ignorance is bliss. Don't go looking for the things people say about your precious pieces of resin if you can't deal with the fact that not everyone will like them.

 

A fair few participants in this hobby seem to need a re-introduction to reality. Or just to grow the heck up and learn to get over themselves... This thread is making me wonder how some of you ever made it out of nursery school.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about it, but damn, people... Is it really that big a deal?

 

Do you ever bother reading what others are saying? No offense but you're just going on tangents without addressing any of the points being made to you.


No one yet has defended anyone who bullies, abuses or harasses someone for any reason. That is never acceptable and individuals who are found out committing such arts are often cut a new one themselves. But you need to realize, everyone makes mistakes. And I speak form experience as someone who's been called out on my own bullshit in these snark communities. Rarely is any of it malicious and if taken with a grain of salt, the criticism can be insightful or at the very least written off someone else's opinion.

You seem to believe having an opinion that differs from your own is automatically mean, wrong and hurts other people. I may think your dolls aren't that attractive. So what, why care what I even think? All that statement means is that I have different aesthetic than your own.

If someone's mental stability is jeopardized and unhinged by critical, oppinonated annotations (about dolls of all things) then there is so much more wrong with that individual than simply owning hideous dolls.

 

What's with all this talk about 'victims' and bullying? I think it's an insult to actual victims of bullying to compare snark with what they've been through. There's being a victim and playing victim. A nasty comment about an ugly face-up, while offensive perhaps, isn't traumatizing, but someone telling you that you are ugly, is.

We are not as weak as we might think. A joke about our dolls won't kill us.

@Ciantha: In answer to your response to me, I still think - based on all the things I've read on the forum-that-should-not-be-named - that their responses remind me of art-school. It isn't 100% bashing, no-one is saying that an owner should die, or leave the hobby immediately. Instead, the opinions vented there are blunt criticisms. If I were to get one and got over myself I'd actually learn from it.

 

Its true that having someone make fun of something you have invested a lot of money and time into can be incredibly hurtful. I've been on the receiving end of some rather blunt truth when I posted pictures of my first faceup. It was awful, and my doll and I got bashed pretty hard. Instead of using my time to sit around and cry about it to anyone that would listen, I put my big girl panties on and got over it. My faceups still aren't great, but I took the comments I got and I'm working on improving the things that were pointed out. In fact, I've got better explanations for ways to improve from the brutally honest people on 'that other board' because they don't sugar coat everything.

Also, just because the person is saying what they think on the internet doesn't mean that they don't understand that there are potential consequences for saying those things. I'm fully aware that anything I post anywhere on the internet can be traced back to me if someone is willing to take the time to do so. I accept responsibility for making those statements, even those that might hurt someones feelings. I respect that the person on the receiving end of my comments will probably not take them very well, but thats life. You (the general "you") can't honestly expect to have everyone share the same opinion on everything. Thats one of the reasons that boards besides DoA are even around, and if someone doesn't agree with whats been posted there, they don't have to stick around.

 

Honestly out in the real world I believe people would be far more likely to try and defend themselves against a person telling them their doll is ugly then they would be on the internet. For example, if I were to go to a meetup and someone started bashing my doll i'd probably have a few choice words to say that person, but on the internet if a thread on my doll came up I probably wouldn't even try to defend it. After all you can never 'win' an argument on the internet as one party will usually start trolling.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that in real life it is easier to confront your 'doll aggressors' (heh that sounds so weird) then it is over the internet. er, well I hope what I said kinda made some sense..

 

I find the discussion of "real world" and "growing up" kind of strange. It might be that Sweden is vastly culturally different but I'm really befuddled.

Children say whatever they want whenever they want, no regard for whether it's appropriate or hurtful. Growing up would mean taking responsibility for what you say. If I see an ugly face-up I think to myself, that's ugly. I do not write it on the internet (which by the way is forever) where it may get back to the person who made the face-up. Would I have the right to? Sure, but growing up means realizing that you shouldn't do everything you have the right to do.

Did nobody watch Bambi? "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". In my culture learning this is part of growing up. Mocking somebody publicly (and the internet is public) is something one should grow out of after ones teens.

I really wonder what kind of real world some people here live in. My real world is populated by relatively grown up people. In my real world critique is perfectly all-right when asked for and mocking is frowned upon.

No my world isn't made of cookie-dough, rainbows and unicorns. My world is just a place where common decency is still valued.

 

I love it.

 

Suddenly, it really sinks in that this thread is about dolls. Not people. Not people's personalities, their families, their friends, their merits, their faults.

It's about dolls.

It just doesn't seem worth getting so riled up over and so hurt...

You =/= your dolls. You are a totally separate entity. Maybe you're a speshil youneek snowflake. Maybe you're like me, one of the nameless apathetic masses. Whatever you are, you're not your doll. Embrace that and let other things fall away from you.

Just my two cents.

 

I wanted to add to this even though it's a few pages back, but there have been plenty of people who had their egos built up by people not actually leaving critique in the Critique forum (this was before the new rules were enforced) who went off to open face-up shops only to get no customers and feel hurt. I have seen this happen a number of times over the years because I often check out other face-up shops to see what cool technique they're doing or whatever else piques my interest, and I'll recognize someone from the Critique forum who shut down their thread with "nevermind..." and even sometimes a melodramatic last message on their to be deleted thread. I can imagine the hurt they felt when people would not even take them up on free face-ups. I've seen these face-up shops freshly open right after a standing ovation from the Critique forum-- where the artist only has two examples and the examples are of their first two face-ups-- and I've seen them close rapidly and never appear again.

Everyone means well when they try to be encouraging and say nice things in Critique-- which is really no place to just give pats on the back and say, "Yeah, you're doing great! Keep going at it and you'll be one of those A-list face-up artists soon!"-- but as many in this thread as pointed out, honesty would have been better in those situations. This is somewhat offtopic for this thread because it's not about "talking smack" on dolls, it's about the extremely nice atmosphere on Den of Angels that some people take for granted and also take too far. Critique threads should have never been hugboxes, yet that's what they largely were for years.

I believe in killing with kindness, but I can recognize where it is actually hurting people too. Think of this in a sociologist's mindset: is the snark community a symptom of something else that is happening? Den of Angels is absolutely lovely for its nicety-nice moderation, which I agree with. The downside is that people forget that Den of Angels is made to be nice, and that the niceness should not be taken for granted or expected to be what the rest of the internet should be like. The snark communities exist for a reason, and are actually indicative of something else. This is not pushing the blame away from the snark communities-- this is my attempt to ask people to rethink their outlook on the snark communities what function they serve.

Snark communities are not just a gathering of the meanies who are just two-faced smug jerks who play nice on Den of Angels and then go elsewhere to show their true side. I don't know of many people who joined the snark forum because, "Man, I just want to tear so-and-so a new one!" If you read the introduction thread on the forum-that-shall-not-be-named, most of the people who introduce themselves say that they came to Den of Demons because they needed that breath of fresh air from the sometimes suffocating niceness of Den of Angels. Den of Angels is not in the wrong though-- it's not a Big Brother that can control its userbase. Its userbase acts as it will within the limits that Den of Angels set up, and I think the niceness sometimes gets too far. The person who opened their free face-up shop thinking they'll get swarms of face-ups to practice on because of comments like, "Oh I'd totally get a face-up from you!" and "You're ready!" is not some egomaniac who really believed their face-ups were made of gold, but some bright eyed new artist who was buttered up by the userbase who meant well and thought that a little encouragement wouldn't hurt anyone.

Think of the snark forum more as a place that was created as a result of the frustrations that arise from the rainbows and kittens atmosphere that I do not think Den of Angels meant to create-- at least not to the level it has become. I'm sure they meant well, but then it became something else when being blunt became intolerable and that everything had to be rewritten as a euphemism. The rest of the world is not as nice and fluffy as Den of Angels. Den of Angels' nice policy is not applicable to the rest of the world.

 

Out of curiosity, do you post on this forum at all? If so, what's your conduct like? Are they making fun of you, or your behavior? I've lurked a bit, and much of the snark I've seen go down usually takes place after a doll's owner appears and gets a bit aggressive. I get that a lot of people don't really care for criticism, but when someone is genuinely trying to be helpful and providing tips they tend to get offended when their comments get thrown back in their faces. For example, if someone believes a doll has been poorly painted and offers a suggestion for improvement, they wouldn't appreciate being told to shut up, or being otherwise insulted. It's easy to say that posters on snark sites don't see their "victims" as people, but the same can be said for the "victims" who can't see the posters as people either. It's a forum, not a beehive. I'm willing to bet that there are people there capable of being reasonable or understanding. It'll be hard to find them if you jump in on the offensive, though.

 

VA: I think your experience with the other forum is rather unique. I've only seen two ways that people get threads dedicated to them. One(the mainone) is by being a known scammer, the other is people who have a blend of ugly dolls, horrid behavior and personality(as directly experienced by members in person via meet-ups) and repeat offenses. None of these threads are updated on a regular basis, some haven't had an update in years.

The only times I've ever seen anyone be directly insulted is when the "victim" is on the forum and taking a full active part. Giving out insults as good as they get(well trying to anyway) and generally throwing a fit that some-one somewhere didn't like their doll and had the gall to actually say it.

 

And the idea behind snark forums is snark. It was not started as a second DOA full of rainbows and happiness. It was started because saying anything that wasn't 'hey great job!' was too easily taken as an insult by sensitive individuals and now no one is allowed to say anything that can be perceived as negative, because should the OP take offense and report it you are out of luck. And unsolicited critique even in PM could get you into trouble as well.

So what you are saying is we should just coddle the people who could use more practice because someday some one else will tell them the truth? FYI, first face ups often get dismissed as just that. A first attempt at something new. Its not all 'OMG that thing is fugly!' comments either.

 

I'm not saying awful faceups hurt anybody. I'm saying motivation isn't a bad thing.

 

My recollection is that the instance she's talking about, she came to the forum to defend doll-based depictions of underage people in sexual situations, and people got pretty heated for, uh, obvious reasons.

 

I used search to go back and look up the past history. As far as I can see, she was participating on the forum itself, snarking as a member, at other members, on the losing end of a heated debate.

The "threat of violence" she has mentioned here repeatedly was worded, and I quote, "Holy shit I want to hit you." That is it in its entirety. It was in response to one of her posts in the discussion about underage sex.

I am not making any further comment about this; I just wanted to establish the facts since I had looked the actual posts up.

 

Agree with this totally. When you post something online, you're sharing and pretty much looking for other people's opinions. You get good and bad reactions and if you really wanted all good opinions, then take what they said negatively to heart and fix what they pointed out.
But if you don't want to change anything about your dolls then don't. It may hurt but what you yourself find beautiful may not be beautiful to others. A person should be buying and face-uping based on their taste not for the gratification of other's praises.

When you're sharing anything, whether online or RL, I think a person should have a thicker skin since there are some with and without filters when it comes to opinions. For example, my friends constantly tell me that my doll hobby and my kiddies are creepy. I laugh it off and tell them they're welcome to take pictures and scare other people with it.Xd

 

I "snark" and I make no appologies for it. I'm not going to go out of my way to tell someone their doll is ugly or whatever, but I'm really not going to care if they happen to find out about it. I don't care if you're going to get your feelings hurt because someone said your expensive piece of plastic looked like it had been scribbled on by a two year old, but a super sensitive owner is. (which one of us has the motivation to keep the snark out of the owner's hands here, them or me?) If you don't want to see comments like that, stay away from snark forums. I'm not going to do it for you. I go to snark forums to say what I really think about ugly dolls, ugly cosplays, stupid/obnoxious people, etc...Kittens and rainbows all the time get stifling. If I could say what I wanted to on DoA, then I would say it to the person's face but I'd add why I thought it looked bad and how they could fix it. If you're posting on a snark forum there's no reason to give a well rounded critique since the chance the person will ever see it is extremely low. If I'm posting my doll pictures even if it's not in critique, I'd want to know what people really think rather than "oh it's so beautiful!"

I can't believe people are getting so upset over the possibility of people making fun of their doll. On a separate forum that they will probably never see. By random internet strangers. If the thought of someone possibly making fun of you or your doll scares and offends you so much, the internet is not the place for you. Go sit in the corner of a sunday school class where there will never be a negative word spoken or grow up. Put on your grown-up pants and get some real self esteem rather than basing it on what random strangers think.