Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

The main thing I like about the other forum is the brutal honesty. I just hate when I see a badly painted, badly made-up, ratty-wigged doll dressed in a sock with the toe cut off, and the owner is posting a thread begging for attention and praise, as if they deserve it just for owning the doll. I internally roll my eyes at this. Especially if I am at a doll meet and someone is trying to get me to praise such a doll, where in person I can't just walk away. Think about the art class people have mentioned, where if you were showing off something that looked bad and asking for compliments, you would be slapped down and told not to be so full of yourself, along with a critique of how you could have improved.

Not to say that positivity is wrong, but that is what DoA is here for! The other forum fills the gap, so to speak. Frankly, even the critique forum here is sugar coated somewhat. When asking for critiques myself, I couldn't help feeling that people felt a little uneasy with saying anything negative, when actually, I wished they'd be a little bit more brutal about it. On the other forum, threads will generally include people recounting ways that the owner could have done something better or made the effect they were going for look better. Harsh critique, but useful to those who are willing to look past the insult.

If you have posted something on the internet, just if you hang a picture on a wall in a gellery, you are opening yourself to oppinions of both sides. If some of those aren't to your liking, it's up to you to be the grown-up and either take is as harsh critique or ignore it all together.


I hope you get the general gist of what I mean XD; Having trouble wording this.

We have been asked to stop talking about you. This thread is about snark forums, not any specific case. If you are offended by what I have said, you can PM me if you really wish to argue about it further, or go onto the other forum yourself and argue there.

 

Thank you Nihmo, Sparrow.

I'm just curious, Wolfe. Why do you feel that honesty needs to be accompanied by 'brutality' [though i suppose that is a VERY strong word for it]?? Personally I've never had a problem with being honest in any of my critiques, but I have never been considered brutal by any person who has had any critique from me. This is for essays, art work, faceups, you name it. I've written in red to the point of having a person start from scratch all over again at no easy cost. But I did it in a manner which encouraged the challenge, without feelings involved. The outcome was positive without extremes.

It is one thing to be honest and frank. It is another entirely to be rude...? I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

EDIT: Adding.

Sorry, forgot to write this as well. People can ASK for varying levels of honesty and 'harshness'. I myself ask for it for my own works. But I don't think it's necessary to always assume that level of understanding for everyone else. Not all people are on the same level as what you may deem acceptable; there are varying levels of seriousness throughout this hobby.

 

Laelen: I suppose maybe brutal was a little bit harsh of a word? What I mean is, not a sugar coated truth. In the work force or college etc. managers and tutors are taught to give a compliment then a critique. But this often seems to get interpreted wrongly, in that the whole thing turns into a compliment and the critique is simply obscured and therefore ignored. Personally, although other people might not feel the same, I would prefer that if there is a problem with such a thing, the commenter comes right out and says it plainly. It is the choice of the person on the receiving end on whether or not they choose to be offended by it.

I'm not trying to sound like someone who going around "brutally" raging against people for small things XD;; Just using the wrong terminology I suppose. It's just that in the case of gallery posts for example, I think it's good if all opinions were expressed instead of just the good ones. DoA isn't a place for this, but it would certainly feel more like the art class scenario. I know in several of mine, we would often be told to go and look at another students work, and express your opinion on it, tell them what you think would work better if you don't like something about it.

I understand XD I think I'm probably coming off a little harsh, when I really just can't think of a better way to put it. Lol.

I just don't think negative opinions should be outright banished and never voiced, when they can just as easily be ignored by those who feel offended.

 

I concur with Wolfeclaw - those who legitimately look to improve their technique seem to get a lot of "candied comments" so to speak and those who post for the sake of a cyber-pat-on-the-back tend to be offended by constructive criticisms like "your eyebrows are uneven perhaps you could try XYZ"

I wasn't offended when someone told me in my first face-up crit thread I posted that my doll looks like a transvestite that worked at their local diner..... I laughed my bum off and though wow I really do need to improve.

On the other hand I wont post in a thread a critical comment unless its solicited. For example in box opening threads I have see comments not specifically worded thus but akin too "congrats on the new doll - Its too ugly for my liking" - whereas I think it would be more appropriate to take a comment like "too ugly for my liking" and put it in a general discussion thread as against a personal thread.....

 

Ah, I understand completely. But that's just the crux of it. I'm afraid I fundamentally disagree with you on this point quoted above. While I do not believe that negative opinions should be downright hidden, I also do not believe that one should go about giving opinions that people are not at the level to accept and work with.

Imho, each person has a level, and criticisms can be tailored to that level without much effort. A teacher cannot [well..i should say should not, since it's just my opinion] expect a young child to understand something which is far beyond their years and experiences; it causes unnecessary grief and stress. BUT...they can make stepping stones and encourage growth without being too crushing at the same time.

Simultaneously, if I find that someone is a gem and can handle a little bit more than what I initially give them, I will be more than happy to help them see things at a more advanced level.

:} Thank you for answering me though, I find these things very interesting.

 

Although true, this just means that this is the level of honesty and harshness that they expect to receive in response. In actuality, the internet is a place of free speech, and if it is inappropriate to reply in the same thread with such an opinion, there is nothing to stop people from going to another venue to discuss what ever it is. If you have posted the "offending" comment/photo in a public forum, it is open to interpretation and opinion, and not everyone will respect your requests of subtlety.

In a way, posting anything online is bringing opinion on themselves, favourable or not. It is more polite to not say anything, but just like magazines showing celebrities putting on weight or getting pimples, a lot of people love to gossip and discuss things they both like and dislike.

Honestly, I think the level of seriousness in this hobby has gotten a little unreasonable at times. I can understand feeling hurt and offended if someone where to call the user out, call them names based on their photos, but these are dolls. As it has been said several times in this thread, your self worth should not be based on what strangers on the internet think of your dolls. =X

I hope that makes sence XD

 

(Lol, I keep reading replies right after I've posted my last one so I miss stuff XDD)

Thanks for understanding, Laelen and whitewings =) I'm glad you understand what I mean!

And I absolutely agree that there is a time and place for critique and how severely to give it. The other forum IS that time, IS that place. There is absolutely nothing forcing the person being critiqued or 'snarked' to go looking for it. If a friend has told them about it, that friend is pretty tactless in my opinion.

Just like with the art school analogy - maybe the student is a little defensive and you can't be that honest straight to them. It is still not a totally bad and evil thing to maybe discuss/gossip with other students on what you would maybe have told them, should they be more receptive of critique. If that information got back to them, yes, they'd be offended, but only because a 'friend' has been tactless and told them, or that person has gone loooking for the trouble.


Edit to Add:

I absolutely agree with this part =) Frankly, I love it when people have a thicker skin and can take a harsher critique, because it helps them grow and improve so much more when they can take it

 

I totally agree with this. Especially this: "I have no idea who it might be behind the doll with the bad face up. There might be a person with a mental disorder, someone sensitive or someone who is just really young still. Knowing that I could hurt someone's feelings just for some cheap lols just isn't worth it." You just said exactly what I wanted to say. All the focus from the snarkers seems to be on themselves - "I have the right to say what I want" without any consideration of the other person involved. There just seems to be a lack of basic consideration about possible consequences of YOUR actions and a lack of acknowledgement that people have varying levels of sensitivity, and that that doesn't make them the ones in the wrong.

If caring about other peoples feelings makes me a "bleeding heart" then I'm proud to be one. I don't take that as any kind of insult or as a weakness actually. To deliberately seek out a platform to get enjoyment from belittling something that someone else holds dear seems pretty weak and immature to me.

 

Ho boy, what was the original question? Oh yeah, "cracking" on other people's dolls ( I have never heard that term before, I am supposing it comes from "cracking wise"?).
Which led to the inevitable discussion of snark sites. Which I don't go to any longer, as I have enough to do in life that does not involve getting my Irish up over insults, imagined or otherwise.
As for my dolls, crack away. As someone who is an Art School Survivor, I don't care. I don't enlist nor do I ingest anyone's critique. I love getting positive feedback, and finding someone who's aesthetic is akin to my own. I don't need any help though in realizing my own artistic vision, but I would not mind technical advice, and I have sought that out. I don't usually give artistic criticism if I don't care for the work, but I might offer technical advice myself if it was being solicited or if something obvious was stated, like if someone said they were going to use nail polish to do their doll's lips or something. I find it touching that some actually use internet criticism to refine their own artwork, but then I forget that many approach this doll thing from a hobbyist stand point as opposed to an artistic one. Also, if I didn't have a severe disengagement from caring about other people's opinions I would not be playing with dollies in the first place.
As for the personal attacks of which I have been the target of, oh well. I am sure that my personality invites it. I don't hang out with snarkers not out of being sensitive which I assure you I am not, but out of the knowledge that when provoked I can be as much of an obnoxious idiot as the next guy, so in the hopes of refining rather than degrading my own character I don't do it, just as in the hopes of not weighing 400 pounds I don't eat a bag of Oreos every night.
As for the existence of those places and the so called rights of those who hang there, I am forced to defend the rights of their free speech (although I notice that my speech is what the snarkers always want to squelch) in order to have mine.
And it would take a nation of millions to hold me back.

 

I can't agree with this more than I already do. I've been beaten, stalked, sexually assaulted, robbed, spit on, and was told on a daily basis that I was ugly, didn't deserve to be treated like a real person and I would never have any success in life. All for laughs and entertainment for my classmates. That's real bullying. The children that bullied my cousin tried to strangle her for fun, so I find myself kind of offended when people compare snark with bullying.

Someone saying my doll looks so ugly it looks like a dog ate it and it came out on the other end and a handful of people agreeing is not bullying. Bullying would be if people continuously tell me that my doll is ugly, that I have no right to own dolls, that I'm unworthy to even touch a doll. Bullying would be if people would put up pictures of my doll with the caption "ugly doll" where ever I go.

It can be hurtful if people say something nasty about your doll. I'm not going to deny that, but let's have it clear that incidental cases do not equal the continued assault that is bullying.
One of my dolls has been snarked at at "that other forum" and not once did it remind me of the years I've been bullied, because "ugly doll" does not even come close to what I've been through. Maybe I can handle it, because I've learned to deal with nasty remarks, but no one is going to tell me that you need to be terrorised first before developing some thick skin.

 

I hate it when people are saying negative thing about a doll or clothing or a person... anything. Sure, we all have our opinions, but unless someone wants to hear it, I wish people would try and stifle their negative opinions. It's just being polite and civil... stuff that can't be paid attention to enough in a forum...

 

This is what I've been trying to get across.

 

I think there are always people who will be mean about it.

I, for one, have seen people who's dolls have really terrible faceups, or the doll doesn't even have a faceup. And they go around the forum,

"Here's that spam you all requested! Look at her new faceup, isn't it gorgeous?!" And sometimes, when I see people who've ordered un-attractive or badly made dolls (like bobobie in my opinion. I think that they, along with resinsoul, make very ugly dolls) I make note that I don't think the doll is pretty at all, but I'm not gonna be all,

"Well, that doll's ugly, and stupid, like your mom."

It's fine to have opinions, but be nice. Then again, when you see someone flaunting around this doll who has been made a fool of because of ugly clothes and a faceup that looks like it was done with sharpie marker, requesting attention and praise, spamming the forum, you might want to drop a little hint.

 

No matter how I or we feel that people shouldn't be making fun of the other's belongings,(I'm expanding the range to not only dolls.)
there will still be these people existing~_~'' .Worst to mention that they might or are our close friends=_=...........
I'm kind of used to seeing these people around,well,as long as I did my part of not doing the same(because it makes me feels like I'm some ill'mannered weirdo~_~")to the others.The first time my friends met my son,they were like gosh,he looks scary bla bla bla...Only few could appreciate and just the few is already more than enough at least they gave me hope that not all people are acting like idiots in this world.
I think,just react normally...Think of it the other way,not all people likes BJD,therefore not all could learn to appreciate and making funny comments,thinking that it is just some casual remarks~_~"Best way,act normal,pretend nothing happened,I guess that's the smartest way to stand out among a group of people who doesn't know how to give the minimum respect.

 

Your post is kinda rude in itself. Though you make it sound like a hypothetical, you still just pointed out that people shouldn't buy BBB/RS because they're un-attractive or badly made in your opinion and then try to back track by saying what you just thought is okay as long as you don't put "like your mom." You should follow your own reasoning since you just said something rude without needing to. >_>

See there is the difference. You =/= your doll.

Yes you chose the doll, it fit your aesthetics and you worked hard on it, but the fact that it's still a piece of plastic still stands. For some reason, some people are equating attacks on their dolls (which you just have done with BBB/RS) to attacking the person. Right now, I'm pretty sure you've offended many people although you didn't specifically make it personal.

Again, I think people just need to get over it and grow thicker skin. The internet is much harsher thing than real life and to get your panties/briefs/etc in a bunch just cause people make fun of your dolls is kinda the best way to ruin your day by being overly sensitive.

 

Although I think people should try to be considerate of others when expressing their opinions, people shouldn't bend over backwards to avoid offending people. I mentioned I feel offended by the comparison between snark and bullying. That does not mean people should stop making comparisons between one thing and something that is a touchy subject to avoid offending someone. I won't cry myself to sleep tonight, because someone was inconsiderate by making the comparison.

There's a good chance you are going to offend someone if you "talk" to a large audience. I will probably offend someone if I say "I think the colour green is an ugly colour and I prefer red." There's an even larger chance they feel offended if they have a green dress or shirt hanging in their wardrobe.
Personally I don't think saying you think dolls from company X are ugly is that offensive. It may not be polite, but it's not the same as saying "People who buy dolls from company X are stupid. Who would buy these ugly dolls?"

 

Yes it may not be offensive to you but well a couple of pages back, it was brought up that people were taking attacks on their dolls personally. I too don't really think it's offensive. In the whole, other people's opinions just make me laugh and try harder to "convert" their tastes. xD

Actually my line of thinking coincides with yours and sorry if it didn't seem that way. I find snark funny, unfunny, brutal, pointless and useful all at once. Sometimes they're done with good taste (funny), other times they suck (very very unfunny) and through those posts you see things that you could improve on (your face-ups ugly cause of so and so) and things that you can't really change cause they're just a nameless person's opinion (your dolls suck).

Bullying, which I don't think I've ever experienced, is something that I find very peculiar. I don't understand the care and attention people dedicate to bullying someone online or the "victim" paying attention to said bullying. I don't understand why either really cares to do what they do. IRL it may matter because often bullying coincides with physical abuse but online... I see no point in either bullying or paying attention to bullies.

That being said, snark =/= bullying in my book. Bullying = harrassment, stalking, physical abuse || snark = people betching and whining, blah blah blah, stupid thing here and there. Doesn't really look similar to me at all.

I don't really believe mental abuse through bullying as I believe healthy person should have some type of coping mechanism or at least the right mind to not listen. I know low self-esteem comes to play but that's a problem that should have been dealt with before the bullying occured.

 

Actually, if you re-read her post you'll find she didn't say that at all. She said she didn't like those dolls, and didn't find them pretty. At no point did she say that her opinion meant other people shouldn't buy them.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm singling you out, I don't mean to, it's just something that happens on a daily basis in this hobby: Someone says "I don't like X" and other people take it to mean "no-one should like X and if they do there's something wrong with them."

All the more reason for the majority of the hobby to avoid the snark forum like the plague. It has its place but needs to remain hidden under a log-in.

On the other hand, I'm totally against the Encyclopedia Dramatica entry, because it's out there in the open where anyone can google their username and find personal attacks about themselves. I think the people who wrote that went too far and I can't find a way to defend them. At least the snark forum members don't try to publicly humiliate anyone.

 

But with how this hobby goes, sometimes a careless thing as she said does sway people's buying. Instead of singling out a company, you could easily have just made a general statement of "I think so and so company is ugly." Also, I was writing in response to some things pointed out a while back, in which people take negatives towards their dolls as an attack to themselves.

No biggie, don't really care if I'm singled out. Doesn't concern me a bit unless I'm being misunderstood. (which I seem to be). Dx

LOL not going to answer the rest since I don't think attacking someone's doll = attacking the person themselves. I was just pointing out the contradiction in what she said. xD

Encyclopedia Dramatica = stupidity. Stupidity in who wrote and who's in it. It's a bunch of collections of butthurt and people who can't stop talking about the butthurt. >_>

 

I did not say I think it is not offensive, I just think it's not that offensive. Not something I would compare with things like being flipped the bird at or being called a fat, old cow. That's what I find much more offensive.

Being not allowed to play with other children, have your friends pressured to stop interacting with you by intimidation or lies, have people pretend you're not there, and so on, that's all non-physical, but still abuse. How can a child cope with being denied social interaction by "not listening" or "having self esteem"?
This is not a topic about bullying, but if you want to understand it, I would suggest you read up on different types of bullying and at what age it can actually start.