Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

What would I do if someone was cracking on my dolls? I'd be shocked first (didn't see it coming) and then look at my bunch of resin to see if there was truth in what they said. I'm a perfectionist. Usually I don't post pictures unless I'm absolutely certain they're acceptable.

All those in-your-face remarks you can read on snark-forums remind me a lot of art school. There, if a student made something that looked like crap, the teachers would bluntly tell them. No rainbows, no daffodils, just a plain: "Shit, that's ugly". Even worse, if students acted upset and started to argue with their teachers, 9 times out of 10 they were told to do the assigment again.
We learned to get a thick skin and that's useful when everyone in the world has an (not always nice) opinion about your work and not everyone is very diplomatic in voicing it.

Stay away from snak forums if you know you're sensitive and that negative opinions of others hurt you. Don't go looking for them. Really, ignorance is bliss sometimes.

 

It's not a matter of balls. It's a matter of area. Am I brave enough to say something insulting to a person's face? Yes. Do I feel it is worth acting completely rude? It depends on the situation. I wouldn't ever be rude at a meetup. A meetup is not the appropriate time or place. I would find something polite to say instead.

Again, things are not black and white.

 

Ah. Yes. "Talking behind other people's backs" -- the boogeyman of the playground. It boggles my mind that this is an issue on an adult forum. Most discussion in the world would come to a grinding halt if we we were only allowed to discuss people and the events in which they were involved when they were physically present in front of us.

If my friends and family reported to me every time someone "talked about me behind my back" my phone would be lit up like a Christmas tree year round. It happens, and you can't always be there to control what is said and ensure that it is positive. Accepting this is part of being an adult. The world cannot function on a face-to-face basis only.

Regarding those who wonder why snarkers don't just say what they have to say to people's faces -- most of them would be happy to, but they've been told that is considered cruel in the doll community. So they take it elsewhere. They can't win for losing. Say it to their face, say it behind their back. The argument is constructed so that no matter what, they are not allowed to express their opinion as they wish? When did we become so controlling of what other people think?

 

I'm sorry, but this attitude is a major peeve of mine. While sometimes a person may have a bit more natural talent, 99% of artistic ability comes from immense amounts of hard work. You may see some amazing "first" faceups, but that skill with a brush and knowledge of color came from countless hours spent in other manners of artistic discipline.

 

No -- not obligated to be supportive, or to like something that they don't, or leave compliments they don't feel are deserved. Nor am I against constructive crit when it's asked for. However, I do think that it's better to avoid things that cause unnecessary hurt to others -- like ripping on people behind their backs for fun on the internet (as the net is not private in any way shape or form). Are they wrong to do so? In the legal sense, not at all, but legality doesn't always = good. Of course you are free to disagree as there is not one definition as to what qualifies as good or bad, but I'm not sure in what way being nasty is considered a positive activity???

Of course there's no enforcement when it comes to politeness, and people are going to say what they're going to say. But that doesn't make it a good thing to do no matter how much enjoyment it may give some people. By saying 'well you're the one who posted the picture' it implies that it's the all the owner's fault they got hurt, rather than placing at least some of the responsibility of the folks who were making the nasty comments. Yes the world in general is full of nastiness that people deal with day in and day out, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter, or should be encouraged either or that people want to have to deal with it in the hobby they use to relax and de-stress.

People can express whatever they like, and there are certainly no thought police, unless everyone has suddenly become psychic -- no one is stopping them, but that doesn't mean that people are always going to find the sorts of opinions that they express acceptable. In the same way that people take some responsibility when they post a pic, so do those who post comments. Again, even on another forum, internet is not private. Most of the time this doesn't even come up too much around here and people are given the advice, 'just don't go to those places if you don't like it.' Good advice too. However, like the sock dress thread, someone asked what others thought about snark -- is it any real wonder that people find it distasteful?

 

I like how Lizzard said it. The talking behind your back will happen for the rest of your life, that's just how it is. While I'm not much of a snarker, I am in support of their right to do it. I also have my own right to avoid it, the same way I don't care to know if people are talking behind my back. I really am textbook over-sensitive. As much as I have a right to post a butt ugly doll, I have to say they, too, have a right to post their opinion of it. That's probably not a very popular opinion 'round these parts, but the world doesn't offer gold stars for any and all work like they did in grade school.

Also in agreement that artistic talent is 1% born-with talent and 99% practice.

 

First of all, there's a big difference between being 'nasty' and being honest. Secondly, if I've got something to say that you don't want to hear, then how am I being 'mean' by going elsewhere to say it?

However, it all still boils down to 'it's your picture, you posted it.' You didn't have to, no one forced you, and if there was any question in your mind as to its quality or appeal, perhaps you shouldn't have. But you did it anyway. If there are consequences that stem from that action, they are yours to contend with. If a movie flops at the box office, is it the fault of the film critic? No, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

 

On this we absolutely agree. I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for what you say, wherever you say it and to whomever you say it. And if it causes hurt, one must take responsibility for that, too.

I guess I am simply frustrated that there seems to be an expectation on the part of some people that because they do not like snark in hobbies, all people who snark should simply stop, wherever the snark may be happening, even if they are not aware of it. It reminds me of something my mother once said about a particularly controlling individual we knew: "It's like she is terribly afraid that someone, somewhere, might actually be having a kind of fun for a moment that she doesn't understand."

FWIW, I am in full support of the right of people to snark away, but have been the subject of it as often as I have participated in it myself. Which, to be fair, is not particularly often in either case. I read more than I write on the Internet, in general. But I do so hate it when people express the desire to limit expression of any kind, and that's what a lot of the recent "people are mean" threads on DoA seem to end up being about.

 

I'm not a fan of snark, and so, I avoid snarky websites. I don't think they're funny or helpful. I was the victim of a snark website drive-by -- someone apparently yanked a couple of my doll pictures from my flickr account and posted them on a snarky doll site, calling them "eye poison" (or something, I never went to look), and it did upset me. More than anything, it aggravated me that someone took the time to tell me about it, when I would have been blissfully unaware otherwise (was that person hoping for a little drama?). But I don't begrudge the right to snark.

Personally, I would never insult anyone's doll, just as I would never insult someone's mode of dress, or the way they speak, etc. I don't see the point of being hurtful. That's not to say that constructive criticism isn't useful, because it certainly can be, but there are tactful ways to critique, and I would only offer critique if I was asked for it. In the end, though, it's all just a bunch of opinions, right? And you know what they say about opinions...

 

It's possible to be honest without being nasty, and I don't really know you, so perhaps you are 100% honest with 0% nasty, but my experience with the internet in general is that there are a lot of people, not all, but a lot that use being honest or being blunt as excuses for downright nasty behavior. You have the right to go elsewhere to do it, and you know what, even though I find it distasteful, I would never take that right away from you. However, I do question the logic of posting on the net and assuming that someone isn't/shouldn't be hurt by it. Posting on the net is like talking in a crowded room -- you never know who is around to hear you. IF that doesn't bother you, then post away. However, my opinion of snark forums was asked, and I gave it *shrug*

No one forced the person to post the picture, but no one forced people to make derogatory comments in a public place. When a film opens, the people who made it know that it might flop, they know criticism is part of the game. Same with all the art school comparisons that get tossed around. There are times when people do need to just accept the criticism, because it comes part and parcel with that they're doing. However, this isn't a film studio or art school, and the people in the hobby come from a wide range of demographics and bring with them varying levels of skill and experience. Some are more prepared to take criticism than others, and again, criticism offered constructively is not the same thing as having a laugh at someone's expense.

I was going to write more and totally lost my train of thought

 

If you don't have a thick enough skin for snark, then get one. You're going to need it for more than the internet, you'll need it for the real world.

I think about 95% of the dolls that are made fun of on snark forums are from people that don't know what they're doing, they're new or just trying something out. But the problem is, no one has ever given them a real critique so they go about their business continuing doing things 'the wrong way'.

I know when I first started the hobby, my dolls were poorly dressed, poorly faceupped, but I never realized it. A trip to the "dungeon" as Lizzard put, actually helped me rather than hurt me.

What doesn't kill you make you stronger. And if someone's opinion on the internet about a giant plastic doll kills you, well then you might have more problems than just needing a new faceup.

 

I don't like snark forums (as I'm sure you can tell), but I'm not on some kind of campaign to shut them all down either. I recognize that it's up to people as to what they're going to do and say -- honestly, I give the whole issue very little thought most of the time. I know I don't like it, so I spend my time elsewhere. Mostly I have more important things to worry about.

It just really bugs me when responsibility for something is heaped all on one party, effectively giving the other side a free pass.

 

This makes me grin because I think this is the real root of the whole matter - it's ends up being a matter of personality. If I met a person IRL who made fun of me online, I probably WOULDN'T remember that they'd done it. Or if I had, I might give a joshing "hey, remember me?" I certainly wouldn't hold a judge. (In fact there's people on LJ who I run into and we go, "Hey, don't we hate eachother or something lol?" because neither of us bothered to remember. People who take it that seriously need lives.)

I certainly can understand and respect someone thinking it two-faced, though. And I know that not everyone would "get over it" as I would. But that boils down to another point someone brought up - if you present yourself in public, you have to be ready for the worst. That's why most people consider it "okay" to make fun of politicians and celebs, because they knew what they were getting into by putting themselves out for opinion. By posting a picture of a doll, you are posting it for opinion - and so the snarkies believe it is fair game.

But again, it's personality. It's impossible to make everyone happy. And that's why it's important to understand the separation.

I compare it to the workplace, where it is important to be polite to EVERYONE, even if you want them to get hit by a bus. Then you leave and you can complain about them all you want. Imagine if you HAD to be nice, JUST IN CASE there was a slim chance they might find out? Of course, there always IS that chance, but does that mean you say nothing but nice things? HECK NO. Some people are mean, some are too nice, some are too sensitive, some people think it's okay to gossip at work and others don't... but nobody thinks you're not going to gossip once you leave.

It's not making it a meaner place, it just is the way things work. Saying it to peoples faces, or behind their back at work, or making their jobs more difficult by treating them differently is unacceptable....just as it would be on DOA. DOA = the workplace, where everyone's in it together. Wank Comms = the bar, where nothing is off-limits and nobody is really taking anything that seriously and will probably forget about it in the morning.

 

Depends on the film critic. Some critics are much more critical than others. I've read and heard some pretty scathing reviews in the past.

 

I wonder how quickly this thread will show up on other snark forums?
It is true that if you post photo's of your dolls on a forum you put yourself open wide to snarky comments.

I don't even care if people hate my dolls, and say so. certain people have said as much at times,but you also have to remember that it's their opinions, and if you like /love your dolls it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. After all have they bought your dolls for you?

Sometimes you can at least get a more realistic view on what others might think, because sometimes what you think is great really isn't at all. So I do like an honest opinion, even if it's not always one I'd like to hear. You can still learn a lot from them.

What I personally dislike intensly are those people that post on snark forums, and act all high and mighty like little know it alls, but then come to a place like this and are overly helpful and sweet like butter wouldn't melt in their mouths, That sort of behaviour just really pisses me off. Plus when particular people are constantly targets for snark for whatever reason, I feel that it isn't really an honest opinion anymore, just something else.

I've met actual people like this at Meets, and so rather than calling them out at an inappropriate time and place, I've risen above it, and totally ignored them.

People have posted here to say why they say what they say, and good on them for their honesty too. I've also seen certain things that aren't to my tastes , but again they're my opinions, and I'm sure there are certain levels to which we would all agree are bad, like using sharpies on dolls etc. To say otherwise wouldn't be honest.

If you're going to be snarky, and say so, stick to your guns with it, and don't be extremely two-faced elsewhere.

But also remember that even artists that are considered great by some, aren't by others....but if you try something different, love it or hate it it's getting people talking, and isn't that what it's all about?
Take a step back, either take on board what's said and learn from it, or disregard it

 

If you're going to say that we shouldn't critique artwork, then you might as well ban art schools.