Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

Your post is an interesting take on the subject. I think this is where I would differ with you, and why the concept of a snark forum bothers me. It's like, I might get really pissed off at a co-worker or professor (as has happened plenty of times over the years), and I would go and bitch about it to my friends or family -- get things off my chest. Everybody does that to some extent or another. But I wouldn't go posting about it on my Facebook page where who knows who could read it and have it come back to bite me on the butt later. If I talk to my offline friends and my family, stuff is going to stay pretty much between us, but as soon as I post my opinions somewhere public, I have no control over who reads it. So to me, posting dolly snark in a snark forum would be akin to posting about my boss on Facebook. Privacy on-line is an illusion -- especially considering the number of unexpected places I tend to run into people in, lol.

No, but again, doll hobby does not equal art school. Not everybody has been or wants to go to one, and even people who do don't always want to deal with the same stuff in their hobby time. Actually, crit, as long as it's constructive, can be very very helpful, but if you're really trying to help someone and not just wanting to laugh at their expense, then there's a time and a place and way to do it. This is probably the least convincing argument for the existence of snark forums. I can accept people's tendency to gossip much more readily than I can believe all the people who are poking fun at a faceup or whatever are really just trying to help.

 

A few years ago one of my face-ups was being ridiculed and someone pointed that out to me. I signed up on the forum, but waited a while to see what people had to say so my enthusiasm for my new face-up had dimmed down a bit. (All my new face-ups are fabulous! and fantastic! and my older face-ups are reasonable to good. ) I read comments like "zebra lips" and that it looked like someone did something physically unpleasant to the eyes (my "suitable for children" description of what was said). There were comments that I brushed off as comments made by people who need to put down others to feel great (i.e. useless comments), but some comments had a certain value in them if you managed to pick them apart for their usefullness.
I figured out a few new ways to do my face-ups and look at them differently. It really helped me improve and I did not get any similarly constructive advice elsewhere. A comment like "That's pretty/beautiful/nice/OMG so fantastic!!1!!" is pleasant to hear, but is not helping me see where I can improve.

To be honest, if my dolls invoke a response as violent as, just picking something random, "OMG, it looks like there's poop smeared all over it!" I'd like to know. In that case there can be two things possible: 1) someone is exaggerating for whatever reason and I should not care or 2) my doll does make people think of poop and there's something in my work that could use improvement.

I do understand that not everybody can or wants to deal with snark this way.

 

My view is that I find it sad that people can only find joy in the hobby and with their own dolls by trying to cut down others and make fun of other people's dolls to make themselves feel better about themselves and their collection/dolls.

If someone does not ask for critic of their doll, then don't give them critic. The old saying, If you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all.

What annoys me the most is when people think they have some right to tell me how to collect or what I can or can not do with my own dolls. I've found that I draw negative attention because of people's jelousy (I have a large collection). They will state they are not jelous, but then why are they even bothering or spending their time worrying about what I am doing with my dolls if they really don't care?

My favorite thing is when people complain that 'ugly' dolls offend them, because it's an art form, and they are only being mean because of some upholding of quality to this 'art form', yep...bs. If they care about the 'standards' of the art in this hobby, they would give tutorials about how to improve skills, they would go out and try to help people, vs making fun of them and trying to cut them down.

Those who truelly wish to help in the hobby (and are happy in this hobby) will build people up, they will never cut people down.

 

First, I will outright state that I don't really post at The Board Which Must Not Be Named, but I do lurk, and I do greatly enjoy some of the thrashings handed out over there.

It is my opinion that a snarky personality needs a place to be snarky, especially if the main hub of a prominent hobby is one that encourages sunshine, rainbows, and only critiquing something when you're asked. If someone who is naturally inclined to be blunt is forced to fluff things up at best, and keep their opinions to themselves at worst, it's going to lead to them exploding EVERYWHERE, and that's going to lead to more hurt feelings than having a place in which to complain and rant and be snarky.

I would rather see one forum full of people complaining, than to see this forum lose these same people, many of which have a lot of good insight and tips for people who will LISTEN, because they have no where to go and rant.

 

This is why I make my snark-involvement very clear. I accept that it's going to make a few people judge and dislike me. Like I said, I would never be rude on DOA or any other inappropriate forum, but I certainly do NOT say "ooh I love it!" and then turn around and say "eeew!".

But then you're NOT doing it to be nice. You're doing it to save your OWN butt.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with protecting your butt in this way - after all, I clearly don't think you'd deserve reporcussion. But do you see what I mean?

I personally think it is less two-faced to have specifically defined social boundaries. Like bars and wank comms.


I DO however agree that snark does NOT equal con-crit. It is a common troll tactic to claim that they're "trying to help". Trolls who say this are full of it.

 

Exactly, you have to consider the source.

 

People believe that they won't get in trouble for stuff posted on the internet but that not true. If you want to complain about the boss, people have been fired and gotten into legal trouble for such public statements. And while you may post to just your friends, there is no guarentee of privacy. My own sister was arrested (and did time in JAIL) for posting a comment on-line, that was read as a 'death threat' (this was all mixed up in a messy break up and so the jail time was maybe more for other things but the on-line logs were part of everything). So while people think it's funny and a laugh to be snarky, there is legal reamifications that may come and bite them in ass. People always think it won't happen to them...until it does.

 

Yes agreed, and I will say if there is something that isn't my cup of tea. I don't have a problem with that at all.
But I have met people that have been only too helpful to give patterns for clothes, and tutorials to make themselves look good, and at meets fawned over people and their dolls, and known for a fact that they've been elsewhere slagging them off. Not cool!

 

I just want to point out that being blunt and being snarky are two different things. "That dress doesn't look nice on you" or "I don't like that dress on you" is being blunt "That dress makes you look like a fat a** eviscerated cow" is being snarky. One can be blunt without being snarky. *shrugs*

 

Nonetheless there are people who will let you know that your doll is being snarked about, because the talking-behind-one's-back thing makes them think that you will want to know. So you can't just avoid the snark. Someone may tell you even if you want to try to avoid it. This whole "just avoid snark sites!" thing seems to me like an excuse not to have to address what happens when a person gets hurt, by blaming them for seeing it-- when in fact it may be out of their control.


So they take it elsewhere. They can't win for losing. Say it to their face, say it behind their back. The argument is constructed so that no matter what, they are not allowed to express their opinion as they wish?

Actually, I don't see a single person constructing this argument ("don't say it in front of them OR behind their back"). I for one actually suggested that saying it behind their back, privately to your friends, might not be so bad, where no one's feelings can be hurt. Some other people have suggested that they would want it said to their face, but not behind their back. No one so far has said you shouldn't do either.

Saying that you aren't bothered by people talking behind your back doesn't really address the problems of the people who are. But I'm going to let people who feel that way deal with that issue.

Back to this whole thing, though, where you're afraid that people who don't like snark will tell you that, because either "to their face" or "behind their back" it might hurt someone, you can't express your feelings as you wish. Well, first of all, you still can, no matter how many people say they think it's mean. The question isn't whether you can, it's whether you should. If you're dealing with the feelings of strangers and you're concerned that you might hurt them either way, maybe you shouldn't be expressing your opinion as you wish. Is your precious self-expression of how craptastic you find someone's faceup more or less important than deeply hurting someone's feelings? If so, go ahead then, but I reserve the right to think it's a jerkbag thing to do. I don't think "but then I can't Express Myself!" is a trump card that wins over other people's feelings. Particularly because nobody's telling you that you can't do it anyway-- just that you can't do it and be nice at the same time.


When did we become so controlling of what other people think?

No one in this thread, not even the harshest critic of snark sites, is "controlling" what other people "think". They are saying that they find impolite what other people do. Pointing out that people might think someone's rude as a consequence of certain public behaviours is not control and it is not about their thoughts.

 

This thread is just making me wish everyone would grow up. There will always be people that pick on you for one thing or another. It's life. Get over it.

 

Sort of OT, but the NPR geek in me HAS to address this.

There was recently a case where a woman complained about her boss on her Facebook. Other coworkers jumped in and agreed with her. She was fired for these comments...and fought it. A court ruled this was a wrongful termination, as discussion of work conditions is considered protected speech. If I'm remembering correctly (I'm not able to actually search this right now, as I've limited computer time herre at work), the Facebook status wasn't exactly nice, either, and was along the lines of "My boss is a psychopath."

You do run a risk of being fired for a multitude of reasons, sure, and I'm sure that posting things like this publicly isn't going to help your chance of longevity with a company, but you absolutely cannot be fired for complaining about your boss anymore. Even in an at-will state.

 

Well, you can be, you're just likely to win your court case if you have the resources to fight it. =D

 

Well, in the case of my old boss -- or actually, he was my boss' boss, it would be to cover myself, lol. I can't in truth claim a nicer motive for that one However, when it comes to co-workers, fellow students and the like, it really is to not be mean. Sometimes people do things that drive me nuts, but I don't want to hurt them either. So, in the case of that real life non-doll example, it would depend on the circumstance. When I post somewhere like Facebook, I'm aware of both. I don't think people should get in trouble in their professional lives for what they post on Facebook, but the fact of the matter is that they do. It's one of the ways people get tripped up with social networking sites.

In the case of dolls, I really wouldn't want to hurt anybody -- especially newer folks who might be struggling to learn the ropes and need some encouragement along with tips from more experienced people. But anyway, the point I was trying to make is simply like it or not, even a separate comm isn't really like venting to a few friends in a private setting. It includes a lot more people, some of whom you may not be aware of. Having a separate comm is better than people snarking here, but I don't know that it's really as separate as people make it out to be, which is really an internet issue. The internet is very different than interacting with people in real life physical settings.

It's unfortunate too, because it's really confused the whole constructive crit thing. You get people who are afraid to ask for them, because they've gotten flamed by some troll in the past (been there done that), and then you get people who think if they're giving criticism then it's ok to be a complete jack ass. Well given crit is immensely helpful, and not hurtful either. The best profs I've ever had both in visual art and non art classes were the one that would point out what you did wrong and need to work at, but also make you feel like you you really could do it. People like that are invaluable, but often seem to be few and far between sometimes.

 

It's more the 'legal problems' that's an issue. That is one person who got fired due to a FB comment, how many others have been fired but haven't bothered to fight it due to lacking the resources to do so?

Being Snarky is another term for being a Bully. And internet Bullying is becoming more and more of an issue and having more and more legal ramifications.

And those being Snarky don't even realize or even care that what they are doing is wrong, and bullying.

 

So then, what? Are people only allowed to have one facet to their personalities? If I'm mean sometimes, in a certain setting, this means that I have to be mean all the time, in every other setting? It's either always bright and cheerful or always snarky and mean? There's no changing once you've chosen one or the other?

I'm on said other forum just about every day. It doesn't mean I'm always mean and nasty everywhere I go. It doesn't mean I can't obey the rules and play nicely elsewhere. It doesn't mean I can't try to be helpful when I post on this forum.


I'm all for snark forums. I agree with the earlier comparison of the workplace vs. the bar after work. We play nicely here and keep the complaints and snark on the forums specifically made for them.

 

Why do even feel a need to be mean or 'snarky'? Do you care about how the other person may feel if they should see your comments? Obviouslly not if your posting in a very PUBLIC forum/manner. Do you care that there are potential legal ramifications for what you do?

It's not a matter of changing how you behave for the situation, I think it's more a show for how your true nature is, when one looks at the worst of a person. A good person can be looked at in person, on-line, etc.. and their nature is still good. Just having an illusion of nice doesn't change what you are if you choose to be nasty in other situations, and for that I can only pity you.

Just because another forum says it's okay to be mean in that forum, DOESN'T make it right. It doesn't give you an excuse to turn off your own morals, and say that because the forum says it's okay to do, that it's okay to do. That because the forum says it's okay to be mean and nasty that your not actually being mean and nasty, and that it's okay to do so.

 

But again, you're just protecting yourself, not others. Nowadays, because of widespread media attention, you have to live under a rock to think you can't get caught on the internet. (I don't mean anything personal to your family.) If someone is dumb enough to post "I'm gonna kill so-and-so for ruining that doll!" and gets in trouble, I really have no sympathy.

I actually agree completely with what you're saying here, even though I come to the opposite conclusion.

I'm sure that a lot of people on snark comms are shallow/immature enough to never consider the consequences of their actions. Occasionally there may even be a sadistic person who really enjoys hurting people. But I think most people really are aware of the rammifications of it, and have decided that a couple of chuckles are worth the off-chance someone's feelings might be hurt. As I've said - I know people won't like me for and I've accepted it and I respect their choice. If I'm allowed to have opinions about them, they're allowed to have opinions about me.

And yes, I DO believe the freedom to think and say anything is more important than people being hurt by a few sentences typed by a faceless anon because they have their priorities out of place (aka taking the net too seriously).

And so, ultimately, there IS no issue, because it is guided by the laws in the country where the website is hosted, by the policies of the host, and by the policies of the site itself. Whether people like it or not.