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Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

Nov 24, 2010

    1. With all due respect, that is an issue that needs to be taken up with the "friends" in question. Just as you cannot control what people are saying on their snark sites, the people on those sites can't control what your "friends" are tattling to you even when you have made it clear you don't appreciate it. The people have taken their snark to their own zone, and that's about all they can do to keep it out of your sight.

      Here I have to apologize, because I was looking at the thread as a whole rather than a single individual's post. You are correct -- no single poster made that statement. But taken collectively, there is no consensus about the "better" way for those who like their snark to enjoy it, if they must. Is it better to deliver it face-to-face, or not? In that regard, the message is a confusing one. Anyone who particpates in snark forums of any kind, doll or otherwise, is doomed to fail if they try to determine what the preferred way to handle it is, because in general, they're damned if they do it one way and damned if they do it they other. That is all I was trying to express; my last line, in retrospect, was poorly worded and certainly derailed my point.

      Of course, here at DoA, there are forum rules that make it clear there is to be no snark here, so all of the above is moot anyhow.

      As someone who's never actually commented on someone's face-up, I can't say that it is more important than someone's feelings, no. But I admit I have snarked over other things I have seen on doll forums. Mostly behaviors. People who whine that their blurry photos of an unposed doll with no face-up laying on a dirty floor didn't get as many comments as the amazing elaborate photostory with unique but inexpensive props, for example. People who ripped off someone else in the Marketplace and then got ripped off themselves. There was a user I found amusing who kept telling the moderators how to do their job. And so on.

      If it makes me a jerkbag to find these sorts of antics in the hobby face-palmingly amusing, and to comment on them with fellow hobbyists that agree, then I guess I'm just a big fat jerkbag poopyface, and I'll go eat worms. At least I'm not pretending about who I am or what I think. I never have. I never will.

      Edit: Regarding the "two-faced" thing. I've never quite understood that accusation as it applies to behavior in different locations, either online or in real life. I do and say things at my close friends' houses I would never do at my grandmother's house, and vice versa. It doesn't mean I'm two-faced, it means I'm an adult who can adjust behavior according to the situation. I might tackle a friend to the ground and noogie her until her hair is knotted. My grandmother? Not so much. She would prefer me to pass the tea instead. But I'm still me in both cases. I like noogies and tea.
       
    2. It's one thing obeying rules, and playing nicely elsewhere. It's quite another then trying to be Teacher's pet.
       
    3. This. I've read a few comments about people who had 'good intentions' telling their friends or acquaintances about their dolls being posted on wank forums as a reason why people who don't normally seek it eventually find it. I think the people with 'good intentions' may be looking for more drama than anything else. There's no point in telling someone that their doll pictures are being picked apart in a forum they never go to especially if they are likely to be hurt about it - them turning up at that forum to defend themselves will never end well.

      tl;dr: If you know someone will be upset with the knowledge of being the target of snark, it would be kinder not to tell them and let it all blow over.
       
    4. I'm not sure I understand this statement. Issuing a threat of personal harm via the internet is against the law. Defaming someone's good name with untrue statements is potentially against the law. Posting a snarky opinion about someone's doll is not against the law--on the contrary, it is protected speech (in the U.S., at least).
       
    5. This is true, and I guess it has to do with the "levels" a person considers acceptable or not. Is it okay to call your boss a psychopath on Facebook? Is it okay to say it to coworkers at work, or to your boss's face? Is it discriminatory against people with mental illness? Who has the right answer?


      This is a GIANT problem in Lolita right now. It's almost impossible to get decent concrit.


      I think you're making a stronger moral judgement here than a lot of the other posters. To say I am doing something "wrong" in the way you write it doesn't imply just "incorrect", it implies "bad" and "evil".


      Here, here. That's why I immediately forget the people associated with wank (on either side), because I DON'T want to judge them by some stupid internet opinion. (I will likely not remember anyone specifically from this thread. XD )


      Snark is well within my morals - I don't "turn them off".
       
    6. That's correct, and if you mind that, you shouldn't snark. Personally I don't mind. I don't say "mean" things directly to people's faces because that is, well, mean, but if the things I said happen to get back to them, well, I stand by my opinion. Granted that opinion was probably expressed in a way that was intended for an audience that wasn't them (if they'd asked me I'd probably have used less foul language and been slightly more circumspect) but the underlying opinion? I absolutely stand by that, and if that puts someone off being my friend that is okay with me. Given the kind of person I am we would make very poor friends.

      They're really, really not. They're attacks and ridicule on something the person has done, not on the person. On the forum I moderate I try to shut down personal attacks when I find them -- we've had occasional instances of "soandso is sooooo fat" and "soandso is a bad parent" and I've shut that bullcrap down to the best of my ability. A doll is not an immutable fact about you personally; a doll is a doll. If you cannot separate yourself from your dolls sufficiently that insulting the doll's faceup is an assault on your very soul I'm afraid I cannot help you.

      So are you suggesting that it would be preferable if no one ever expressed a negative opinion in a context in which the subject of that negative opinion could find out about it? Because that only leaves one option, and it's expressing one's negative opinions to oneself in an empty storage closet. People talk, the internet is indexed by Google, and email gets forwarded. Everything CAN always get back to the person. TBH I think a snark forum is maybe one of the easier ways to AVOID it getting back to someone, since they're only going to find it if 1. a "well-meaning" (this is never actually helpful) friend tells them, or 2. they go looking.

      Believe me, I have never labored under the delusion that the stuff I say won't get back to people. I only say things that I DON'T MIND if it gets back to people (am I happy when it gets back to someone? Not really. But I am not crushed.).
       
    7. So how is it being mean in any way, okay or good? Sorry but I see people who want to make fun of others and their dolls as being bad, and yes EVIL in my book. Justifying being mean in anyway shows a lack of conscious and morals. Just as breaking the law is still breaking the law even if you don't get caught, and not getting caught doesn't make it ok or right.
       
    8. Legal ramifications? For something as simple as, "Ouch, that faceup is hideous!" I'd LOVE to see that go through a court.

      Save your pity, I'm happy as I am and I don't need it.

      And again, because I have the potential for meanness and snarkiness, that makes me mean and snarky all the time? That's my "true nature", anything else is just a fake show? I have yet to meet a person who is that flat and simple. I'm not some cheap cartoon villain -- only pretending to be "good" so that I can further my own needs and boost my own name and ego. There are times that I am a truly kind and caring person, and there are times that I am cruel and cold hearted. Being one doesn't make the other any less genuine. I'm not pretending in either case.

      Tell me which is more genuine -- the person who admits and accepts that people can be both negative and positive, and sometimes somewhere in between, or the person who insists that we're only one thing, all the time, and that everything that falls outside of that one behavior is just an illusion?
       
    9. If your opinion was not asked for, and it's negative, then keep it to yourself. Why do you feel a need that your negativity go out into the universe? Why some need to express your negative for others to see? (If you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all!)
       
    10. There is a saying, judge a person not by their equals, but those they see beneath themselves.

      The issue isn't about people being negative and positive, for people have good and bad days, the question is about why people think they have a right and a need to express their negativity (that is directed towards others/people and their dolls) in a public forum.

      Just as someone mentions people should have an emotional detatchment from their own dolls, why do you have a need to post negatively about someone else's dolls, and vent your own emotional connection to something that isn't your's. And often you will find if you look into your true motivations for doing so, it has nothing to do with doll, so why direct it towards the doll/owner?

      And ugly face-up is in the eye of the beholder, making comments about an ugly face-up is a reflection on the speaker's desire to do something different with the doll, showing their own desire for the doll (even when they say they don't want it), and thus a jelousy that they don't own the doll. If they didn't have or want a connection to the doll they wouldn't care. I look at a faceup I don't like, I go 'ehhh' and move on. I don't have a need to go and comment and bond with others about how much we all hate the face-up. Which this desire for acceptance from peers by congrating around negativity is never good or healthy.
       
    11. Actually - call me distrusting - they make me feel uncomfortable, especially when they're being said in a place where the policy is "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". I can't help but wonder what those people really think of my pictures, my work etc. I prefer getting a snarky, but honest response. It doesn't come across as two-faced and at least then I know where we stand.

      But I agree with Taco in that we should all take our responsibilities. If we post something on the internet we should be prepared that not everybody will think your work is a piece of art. If we say something, we should likewise take responsibility, and not hide behind lame excuses (no one in this thread is, btw).
       
    12. Ah, it's good to be evil. :apirate:
       
    13. The entire thread is making me wish I could listen to Voltaire while at work. Their tears are all the pay I'll ever need.
       
    14. Seconding this. A person who does this is almost always a person who craves drama, even if they can't admit it to themselves.


      This is another very excellent point. Would I be good friends with someone who was so sensitive to these things? I doubt it, because our personalities would likely clash about a lot of things. But I *could* certainly be an aquaintance, or part of a larger group, like a forum, and probably like and enjoy the person.


      Thank you - I was trying to say this too. I RARELY get insulted by the internet...I can actually remember very well the last time I did from a year or two ago, because someone read a comment I made on someone else's blog and told me I was racist. THAT is insulting, for someone to judge something SO PROFOUND about my character from FOUR WORDS I'd written with no context, without knowing anything else about me. I was pretty angry (but also, I confess, amused). Who thinks it's really acceptable to make that kind of judgement call on a person over four words?? (And no, they weren't "I hate (insert minority)".)


      I never said it was "good". I am saying things are not black and white, but you apparently disagree. Basically you are saying that me making fun of a faceup is as bad as killing a person....or being racist. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to think that there are shades of grey in the world.



      And a side note to everyone - please start watching how you're wording things towards each other. That will start REAL fight and end this debate quick. We can have a mature discussion about wank without it turing INTO wank, can't we?
       
    15. So...being snarky makes you a bully. Good to know, after all these years. I'll be sure to properly embrace this new aspect of my personality.

      You know why I'm snarky? Because I find it funny. I like the dry wit, the straight-faced quips. I'm enthralled with gallows humor. When things go bad for me, I keep my head above water by snarking at the situation, and that makes it easier to handle.

      You don't have to be snarky. You don't have to like snark. You don't have to visit places where the snark runs rampant and is encouraged. What you DO have to do is respect my right, as a private citizen, to free speech. I have never seen, in any snark community, someone make a comment that could have legal reprocussions; and I'm sure if someone DID, they would be promptly banhammered because hey buddy, that ain't cool.

      But hey, you've already made your mind up, so I'm just blowing hot air. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm kinda hungry, so I need to go beat someone up for their lunch money.
       
    16. I think this pretty much sums it up for me. I never actually knew there were doll snark sites until finding this thread, but I've seen it in many MANY other sites. People saying things that they KNOW are rude and hurtful, then hiding behind the excuse "That's my opinion and I have a right to express it". Look, no one's arguing with you're right to say something. You have the right to say whatever you want, but why oh why are you choosing to be hurtful? I just have to roll my eyes at these people. It's easy to be mean when hiding behind the anonymity of your computer. I doubt very much anyone of the same would say something rude in person, because they know it's inappropriate.

      I do agree with the people saying if you don't like the snarkyness stay off those sites. If it's aviodable and you don't like it, then you should just avoid it. I've found DoA to be a very kind and accepting community, why bother looking for trouble?


      note: I thought it worth mentioning that I think there's a difference in the intent behind being humorously snarky (and therefor playful) and spiteful snark (posted just for the intent of hurting someone/starting something). I can be quite snarky in person with my friends who know it's a joke and can throw 'em back at me. snarkyness is not equal to snark?
       
    17. Quickly before I go out, re: why ever say anything negative about anyone:

      Talking crap is, IMO, a natural human propensity, and it's a release valve. Every once in a while I need to shout and stomp about how my father is an emotionally illiterate, empathy-disabled oversized 14 year old, and this is what allows me to maintain a relationship with my father -- I let off that steam.

      Talking crap about dolls is how I let off doll-fandom steam. It relieves the pressure of all the little stuff I find annoying and allows me to carry on enjoying the hobby. For better or for worse I'm a pretty pessimistic, negative sort of person -- it's how I'm wired and if I try to fake being something else it goes badly for me -- so even if I enjoy something very much I do a certain amount of snarking and muttering about it. When I grouse about how someone behaves or how someone did a horrible faceup, it is emblematic of every obnoxious behavior and horrible faceup I have seen in the last few weeks. Anneke, I suspect this means we would not get along. But that is, in fact, why I snark. And I still don't have a problem with it.
       
    18. If you'll pardon the dramatic flair, I believe that human beings not only have the right but the NECESSITY to express their negativity in a public forum. And that's not just for dolls, that's for all matters. Anything else is oppressive to the human condition.


      I really don't think most snarkers do that. I just occasionally glance and go "huh", I might make a witty comment, and then forget about it. There is no "bonding". There is no "emotional connection".


      This line made be burst out laughing because I thought of the workplace/bar analogy, and some of the very rude things I've said to people's faces there. When people come into the bar and act obnoxious, I often tell them to their face. (I feel the need to mention that I don't drink alcohol, so it's not because I'm making a poor drunken decision either.)


      Also, Micchi, if I had any leftover internets, I'd offer them to you. You pretty much sum it up.

      If I'm a bad person, I already have prepared my reply: lulz.
       
    19. Wow, that's convoluted.
      No, I'm not jealous. Not even a little. I promise.

      It's not so much a connection to the doll as it is a dislike for people who stop and say "This is good, I'll go post it!" without even looking twice. I hate complacency. When I see my doll's faceup needs work, I do the work until it is worth showing to others. If I don't feel I'm at that point, I don't post. Before I post photos of my dolls, I try to make sure the photos are appealing and in focus, and that my background isn't distracting to the viewer. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to do these things.

      Hanging out on snark forums has given me a lot of pointers in how to do what I want to. I don't wish to speak for anyone but myself, but I don't need their acceptance, nor do I think they need mine. Just like on this forum, we congregate because we have similar views on some topics, not because we want acceptance for our opinions.
       
    20. Guess what, your allowed to ASK for people to give honest and negative responses. It's when people give negative unwanted commentary that is the problem. If I ask your opinion and I don't like your given opinion then I should never have asked. But when you give your opinion and I didn't ask for it, then you are in the wrong.

      And yes expressing your opinion that wasn't requested is a form of bullying. Your putting your opinion out there knowing it wasn't asked for, and why is that? because you feel your more important, your opinion is more important, and that it needs to be out there. Your pushing your opinion on something out for the world to see, because you feel they need to see it. That is being a bully. Your saying, that this person can only enjoy their doll if your allowed to be negative to them in response. What is bully if not a difference in opinion, where one believes they must force their opinion upon the other.