Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

You've never really been the victim of a real bully, have you? Bullying is a whole lot more than a negative opinion and some snark.

If I followed someone around to every single thread they made to express how much they SUCKED, that would be bullying, and it would be harassment. That is not snark. there is a difference.

 

See the problem is YOU dislike when someone posts not to YOUR standards of what YOU want. There is no rule to this forum that you have to stop and think twice and meet YOUR standards. Obviouslly they are happy with what they posted, or they wouldn't have posted it. So who are you to then judge them if they are happy with it, and didn't ask for your opinion? What makes your opinion so important that you must post it for all to see?

 

Ehhhh maybe I worded that poorly. I'm not saying one should be nice to everyone all the time. I think there's a difference in saying something to someone who is being loud obnoxious/invading your space/doing something that is affecting you. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to say something to someone who did something that was affecting me directly (ala your example). That's totally different. I think saying something harsh about someone's faceup/whatever (we're assuming they're not asking for critique) would be the equivalent of commenting snakily on the person who's sitting quietly next to you at the bar's makeup. It would be awkward and out of the blue, and well... inappropriate. :P

 

Actually I have, all my life actually (by a family member). And Bullying isn't just when it becomes harasing and physical.

Generally bullying is when such attacks occur multiple times. How often in a snark forum is a single comment made and that is all? No, the community as a whole will continue to drive home their negative opinions. So while the single person isn't doing the act repeatively they are contributing to the group as a whole and their repeated negative comments and thus bullying.

 

They are also doing this among themselves, not directly to the doll owner. On a forum that can easily be ignored and not visited.

 

I'm left wondering how people making snarky comments about a doll on a post in a forum dedicated to snark - not via email directly to the person, not on multiple sites where it isn't allowed or their private blogs, on instant messengers or private messages to the person - can count as bullying. The person is not being directly contacted or confronted by the so called "bullies." The "bullies" aren't doing a very good job of "bullying" if all they're doing is meeting up at the local McDonald's and having private conversations with each other about how they thought so and so's whatever doll looked like crap with its purple nail polish faceup. They are not infringing on the person's rights. They are not physically harming them or preventing them from participating in the hobby. And really, posting in a snark forum is exactly like getting together and having conversations in a more public place than say your bedroom/your online blog, and nowhere near the level of cyber stalking that would need to occur for it be actual bullying.

 

Just so you know, wild-eyed ranting like this undermines any credibility you may or may not have had in this thread. (But it's entertaining, so carry on! )

 

Now if I have nothing nice to say, I usually say nothing at all. However this is situational - if it's a place for critique I'll kindly state my opinion of both the good and bad. Constructive criticism is important. While I don't post on the sites in mention I do snark about things to relieve stress. Usually to my best friend who I share this hobby with. Be it in person or on MSN. To be honest if anyone tries to claim they never whine or snark about anything I think they're lying to themselves. It's a natural thing to do and is often a coping measure with things you are frustrated with or by. I think bad mouthing someone in a unconstructive manner in a very public way may be in somewhat poor tastes but I don't think criticism is bad. I think having no opinion is far worse.

 

By the same token, it appears that YOU dislike when someone posts (content, opinions, snark) not to YOUR standards of what YOU want. There is no rule to the dungeon that they have to stop and think twice and meet YOUR standards. Obviously they are happy with what they posted (about a doll or a bad faceup or a histrionic tirade), or they wouldn't have posted it. So who are you to then judge them if they are happy with it, and didn't ask for your opinion? What makes your opinion (of whether something is "legal" or "mean" or "evil") so important that you must post it for all to see?

For the record, commenting in any way, be it snarky or positive, does not automatically equate 'jealousy'. That is one of the biggest logical fallacies out there and a rather puerile attempt to derail the actual discussion.

 

You've never been out with your friends, been appalled by some stranger's horrendously ill-considered outfit, and said "yikes" to your circle of friends? Because I sure have. That's not "commenting snakily," that's a normal human response to something someone else chose to present.

I also don't feel that it's "two-faced" to be polite (not a liar, polite) in one social setting and more barbed in another. The vast majority of people behave differently in their interactions with various individuals and social groups.

 

''t is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or 'fighting' words--those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.‘”
Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942)

The internet is a written form of communication and thus falls under rules of libality. And your not attacking 'something' your attacking the person by attacking their doll. (Because your attacking one person, one doll, and their choices in such matters, not making general statements in regards to the hobby.)

 

Because I do have legal backing towards things. I have no problem if you want to make comments about how you don't like badly done face-ups, and talk about how you don't like blue eyeshadow on a doll. Your more then within your legal rights to do so. My problem is when you feel a need to state your opinion on a specific doll and thus individual.

And again written (the internet) falls under completely different rules and laws then spoken communication.

 

Stating that someone else's doll is ugly is not libel. Libel (in the U.S.) is a false, published statement, stated or implied to be true, that causes a person actual harm. How would you go about proving that the statement, "Person X's doll has an ugly faceup," is false? It can't be done, which is why opinion, fair comment and criticism are all defenses to defamation. Otherwise, ever single op/ed writer who claimed that GW Bush was a "warmongerer" or Obama is a "socialist" would be facing legal action.

 

I do think that you'd rather hear something negative about someone you're about to ship your doll to for a face-up than have people say only nice things or nothing and then find out that this face-up artist used materials that are harmful to your doll or modded your doll without asking you first. People who use harmful materials are snarked at. People who have no respect for other people's property are snarked at.
Not everyone dares to leave negative feedback and here at DoA you are not allowed to comment on a transaction you were not part of. So certain information comes from certain sources.

I'm not implying that people who say negative things about other people are saints saving the world, but at times (even if it's not often) saying something negative is better than keeping your mouth shut.

I have the same feeling. That's why I said "OMG, so pretty!" is nice, but doesn't help me improve. I'd rather have someone tell me my doll looks awful so I can fix it if I want, than think it's awful, but tell me it looks great and I shouldn't change anything.

 

Conflating a person's opinion of an inanimate object with a libelous attack against the owner of said inanimate object? No.

If you have legal backing, I would like a court case for precedent where someone said things about a person's doll on the internet and a judge ruled that as being libelous. Proving libel isn't just as simple as accusing someone of writing something that hurt your feelings:

Per the Wikipedia entry on 'defamation':

First, the person must prove that the statement was false. Second, that person must prove that the statement caused harm. And, third, they must prove that the statement was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement.

When it's an opinion such as a specific doll being ugly, poorly styled or having a bad faceup, that really can't be proven false. It can be disagreed with, but as with all art the perception of the audience is just as valid an opinion as the person who created it.

 

Libel is to make a false claim about something or someone. If my opinion is that something is displeasing to look at, then it is true for me. I'm not making any claims for the feelings of anyone other than myself. Just because you don't like my opinion does not mean I'm not entitled to it.

Just as it is someone's right to post their pictures in public view, it is my right to formulate and post my opinion of them. If you don't like my opinion, you don't have to look at it, especially considering it is posted on a different forum!

 

There is NO REASON a person would be posting pictures of their dolls to the internet if they didn't want opinions.

Secondly, that is why there is a snark comm - the people are NOT"giving their unwanted opinions to someone who doesn't want them. They're giving those opinions to people who DO want them.

And not all "unwanted expressed opinions" are bullying. If someone says "I like cake!" and I say "I only like vanilla!" am I bullying?

No, no one on a snark comm is trying to FORCE their opinions on the other person. That's why, again, the comm is separate from here.

I think you may be confused as to the difference between specifically snark comms and general online harassment.

 

I'm just going to echo the wisdom of this yet again, and since I'm outspoken enough, I'm reasonably sure I take a pounding on some of these places. I just prefer to not have to care or worry about it, so I don't go there. It's not advice that's hard to put into practice.

I'm a fairly snarky person and I don't love everything. I deal with that a lot in my work environment, though, so I'd rather leave it there for the most part. In a hobby I took on to ease anxiety and enjoy, gossip is one thing, but I prefer to keep my crit on the 'asked for and constructive' side. That said, I will bust on my own collection amongst friends and talk about how girly one of my boys can't help but look despite his testicles, or how one of my dolls' bewbs look like she's been trapped in an anti-grav chamber, and so on. I pretty much shuffle everything else off into 'someone else's taste' land. I may love it or hate it, or wonder why on earth someone would buy this or that, but in the end it isn't my business to worry about it, since it doesn't have much, if any, impact on my life.

 

I just want to back this truck up a moment since I was gone for this part.

And yet here you are telling everyone else how they should post on other forums. You think you have the right to tell everyone else how to behave online and in life. I am on that snark forum and I do occasionally snark on dolls I think people should have spent more time on. I would never go up to someone in public and say what I say there, but I would not also tell them I love the doll when I don't. Its not being two faced. I'd use nicer language and be more constructive when they ask for it. It would be the same opinion, it would just be different words. Some people ask for critique, but don't actually want to hear it. Telling them to spend a little more time practicing or research materials to use just isn't the 'critique' they are looking for.

Its not bullying. The people on the forums aren't the ones going to the people being talked about and letting them know. Its 'friends' who are on the snark boards, possibly even snarking behind that person's back about their doll most likely looking to start drama. Bullying implies the people making the comments want the intended 'victim' to see. Also, doesn't there have to be character bashing and do more hurt the person more than just their feelings of having their art talked about negatively to make it illegal? There is no loss of money being made because an ugly face up was posted somewhere and mocked.

Painters get told all the time what they can and can't use, what is proper technique and materials, and critiques rip on gallery shows when they don't like that style. Sure these people painting face ups might not have gone to art school, but if the only time we can critique art is when its made by someone who went to the proper school, then you cannot defend a face up as art if the person did not. There are a lot of tutorials and a lot of people who don't want to take the time to watch them. People want instant gratification. Take the extra time to make sure the wig is brushed, the clothes are straight, the light is right. Research the proper materials and practice before you start slapping photos all over the internet expecting praise.

I take hundreds of photos when I do my dolls and probably only get about 3 I'm satisfied with the public seeing. When working on a mod I make sure everything is smooth and painted lines are just how I want. I don't expect people to love everything I do, but as long as its what I wanted I'm ok with it. If people make negative comments then I look back at the work and see if I agree. If I'm doing the work for an audience then I'd better take the audience's feelings into consideration.

Snark happens, kids. I had a professor in university encourage snarking because it builds a thicker skin, because the real world doesn't have to be nice to you. You will be rejected. You will have people making faces at you.