Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

And they certainly feel very different. I've had both things said to my face, and you can't compare the feeling of mild annoyance of having your doll insulted with the feeling of upset of having your natural appearance insulted. Even if we choose to ignore the fact that a doll is a thing and has no feeling, it can always get a new face up after all.

 

I have had my dolls made fun of before, and quite honestly, my feelings about my dolls aren't hinged on what strangers think online. If faceless commentary will make or break your love of something maybe you don't really care that much about the object or you rely too heavily on other people's opinions. Yes, praise feels good and being told something you made is not as good as you think, but its not the end of the world. You don't have to change the way you do things because someone you wouldn't know if you passed on the street said you didn't do it right.

If there was actually bullying going on that would be one thing. You are basing your opinion of the site based on what you hear here. No one is being endlessly bullied and no one has committed suicide over their doll not being liked. Its not as bad as you seem to think it is. Anyone who goes off the site to harass someone is immediately given a virtual smack down by the other members. They aren't looking to hurt people, just express and share something that made them laugh with friends who have the same sense of humour.

There is no power trip going on so I'm not sure where that came from. People are not generally followed around the internet (unless they are scammers and making a big scene then an eye is kept on them and news noted) just for the next lol. The initial giggle is had and the entire thing is forgotten in a matter of days. No one is following those people around posting hate in all of their threads.

 

There's a difference between harassment and teasing, though I'll admit that sometimes it's a fine line (Usually demarcated by excessive repetition). If you can't handle a little teasing, about an inanimate object you happen to own - Notice that we're talking about dolls here, nothing as integral as one's appearance, or sexuality, or disabilities or whatever - You're going to run into problems.

 

Here is what you are not understanding.

Snark is not happening brazenly here on DOA. No one is PMing people and being "Hey, your dolls all suck and I think you're probably a mouthbreather." No one is bullying anyone else. There is snark. It is on different boards that are known for snark, that are known to say not-so-nice things.

Not everyone in the world will like you. This is a fact. Not everyone will have the same aesthetic sense as you do. Not everyone will have the same sense of humor, or the same morals, or see things the same way you do. These are facts of life, and this is the internet. If That Other Place offends you so much, if people being snarky offends you, then stay away. If you don't have the willpower to do it yourself, there are plenty of browser plugins and programs that will block you from being able to access it. I suggest you look one up and use it.

 

Everyone keeps repeating that it's the target's responsibility not to find out about their own dolls being made fun of, but no one has addressed my point that people might find out without deliberately going out to seek it. With no one addressing this, it feels like it's just a deflection of responsibility. "You're sensitive? Well, then don't KNOW about it!"

 

And while people claim that the snark communities are just making fun of the dolls, that is OFTEN not the case. It becomes making fun of the owner for owning said doll, for having done the face-up, for even liking the doll, etc...

 

I'm going to second this.

I'm surprised that a common putdown in threads like these is basically, "I pity da fool who spends all his time on the internet picking at other people to boost their own ego. They must have no lives. Those poor, wretched basement dwelling souls." Of course, that's exaggerated. However, the gist of it-- that people who snark must surely be pathetic individuals who spend all of their time snarking-- is still a pretty significantly reoccurring putdown.

It's true that the forum-that-shall-not-be-named has a bad rep, but if people bothered to take a look at it closely they'd realize that it's not some huge community full of "haterz" who open multiple threads daily that spiral into dozens of pages of "libel" which eventually lead into full-on raids to bully the subject of the threads. In reality, the forum gets one or two new "snark" threads a week that usually only last for about two pages. Those two pages are usually just back and forth discussions that usually derail, and are often something like this: "Hey, I've seen that doll before at a meet. The owner is really very sweet." "Really? Hey, speaking of meets-- did you go to that last one in our area?" Even the massive thread on the scammer chibaraki discussed in her third point has a large part of it devoted to derailed conversations about things like the cyberpunk fashion that the scammer participated in, and so a discussion evolved about how cool cyberpunk is and how to do it right.

I would even say that the-forum-that-shall-not-be-named is the nicest forum I've ever been on, even though I myself have been the subject of criticism on there for a face-up that was not successful.

Many people in this thread have cautioned numerous times that there is more than meets the eye-- just because someone snarks does not make them evil as a whole, just because someone who is snarked at did a tasteless photoshoot does not make them a vile person. My crazy, creepy Unoa face-up that got a thread on the snark forum did not involve people saying that I was a creep who should never paint again-- and I think I am a bit of a creep myself for making "bishounen" dolls of teenage superheroes. In fact, I didn't even feel like I was being targeted specifically. The discussion went in the direction where there was talk about how Unoas are often the subject of weird, experimental face-ups that really don't do justice to the dolls and why, oh, why is the the Unoas? I was probably forgotten halfway down the very first page, and no one ever directed a comment at me as an owner that I would consider bullying-- such as "this owner must have crap taste."

This is why I agree that when a doll is criticized, the owner is not necessarily getting criticized. I understand that when you criticize the doll you're criticizing the owner's taste-- but that does not somehow mean that you are directly criticizing the character of the person. I don't think anyone here really believes that a doll wearing a sock dress is indicative of character traits like someone who doesn't like to brush their teeth, is a cat lover, and is a staunch believer in ice cream for breakfast. I do think that we all agree that taste is subjective-- which means it's reliant upon the perspective of the subject-- and that we all don't have to like the same things. However, I think wanting to plug up your ears and refuse to discuss or even understand other people's tastes is not very cooperative. If you operate on the basis that you'd love to discuss what people like, then to be consistent you should be cooperative about discussing what people do not like too. To stand by your own beliefs strongly, you need to have this kind of consistency.

This does not mean that you have to like it-- you just have been to be willing to discuss it because you agreed to that part of the contract when you took your stance, or else you'll be contradicting yourself. It's like how as a carnivore who also supports animal rights, I have to consistently defend myself and accept that my meat-eating stance implies suppression of animal rights and that it may be contradictory. That's why we have philosophers scratching their heads about this and thinking up things like Utilitarianism, the Harm Principle, the Deprivation Account, Thomson's Minimally Decent Samaritan, and so on. You take a stance, discuss it, and stick by it. That is how you argue strongly. Life does not allow you to pick and choose blindly without poking holes in yourself and baring open your hypocrisy.

It never has to be nasty. A snark thread on the forum that apparently has a rep for being baby killers was made about my doll-- not me-- having a weird face-up did not get nasty. It would never have to be nasty unless the parties involved let it be nasty.

 

No, I'm pretty sure if you'll reference one of my first posts I pretty much said 'You're sensitive? Well put on your big girl panties and deal with it.' And that, I think, is the moral at the heart of this thread.

 

No one is going to shelter them from the real world, which is not nice. That statement is directed to the people who actively seek out the sites to see if they are being talked about intending to feel victimized.

 

It really doesn't. At all. Personal attacks are actively discouraged and often get slapped down the second they occur, as others have said, not liking a doll and sharing that opinion isn't the same as not liking the person.

 

My feeling on this is that it can happen with anything. If you put anything into the public domain, then someone, somewhere, will not like it. To me, it makes little difference if you never discover it, discover it by accident, or through someone 'helpfully' telling you about it- it will be going on regardless. It only becomes bullying (or criminal) if people are chasing you about, harassing you and actively trying to stop you from posting/collecting/whatever else you happen to be doing- but very few people do that (even in the snark communities), so at the end of day, all you have is a bunch of people who happen to have very different taste to you, and who don't happen to like what you have produced. It's personal opinion, shared among a small number of people who happen to agree with one another.

Ultimately, when it comes to personal opinions, the only way to truly protect yourself from them is to not put anything into the public domain, ever. It won't stop people in the real word from being snarky about you, of course (because that happens too, obviously), but at least that way you will never accidentally click on a link and find a load of people talking about how much they dislike your doll. And this isn't victim blaming- it's just the truth. If hearing bad things about yourself upsets you, the only way to prevent it from happening is to avoid the places where things like that are said- weather it be online, offline, in my little pony land, or anywhere else.

You haven't replied to my last comment. Which is a shame- I am genuinely curious to hear your answer.

 

The way I see it, I really don't care if people don't like my dolls, art, etc. To me, it is like someone saying they hate my favorite color. So what? Everyone has different opinions on what is good and bad.

My big problem, from all my years of being on Deviantart (where you just can't find more drama llama action whenever someone dares to give a critique), is that when people go from "I dislike/hate X" to "Because I hate X, I think you should CHANGE it to something I do like." This is the mentality that I can't stand. When people get upset that their critiques aren't resulting in an immediate change to something the artist likes. Sorry, but not everyone is going to have the same opinions. And some might like their crappy art/dolls/etc. just the way it is for better or worse. And while you do have the right to criticize them since they posted a public photo, you don't really have a right to "try" and get them to change through harassment (I emphasize "try," because it often doesn't work and just results in bad feelings all around).

That's the main problem with many snark communities. Some people take it too far, and try and harass the target. That's why I don't really support snark communities anymore. Too many of them basically link to someone, then a bunch of people who are new to the snark community or who are trolls take the opportunity to harass someone that NO ONE would have even known or cared about a few seconds before. It's just silly, because why should one BJD owner get harassed for terrible face-ups when there is lots of terrible face-ups out there? What makes them "deserving" of harassment when numerous others are guilty of the same and worse?

And don't say snark communities don't result in harassment, because I've seen it before. The main problem is that people, for some f'ing reason, think that bad art/dolls/etc. somehow reflect on the person. Instead of just posting a photo of something poorly done to laugh about, snark communities often tell you the person behind it. Why? Why do I care about the person behind it if I am just looking at some crappy faceup picture? It encourages the "newbs" and "trolls" lurking in snark communities to take it way further than it needs to go. Instead, snark communities should be set up like notalwaysright.com (a site complaining about rude and stupid customers), because most people only really care about the funny mess-up. They don't really need the person's name to accomplish the "snarking" effect.

So, my opinion of snark communities is that most of them encourage harassment instead of a good laugh. With so many dolls being the same mold, and so many faceups being similar, it's not unreasonable to think that some people might not even recognize their dolls if their names weren't attached to it. I would personally find it hilarious if I found some of my crappy things on a snarking community if my name wasn't attached for harassment. There's nothing wrong with having a sense of humor about oneself! But the trolling, it's just annoying. It's not even real bullying, it's more like stupid call-downs from people driving by in cars!


Edit:
Oh, btw, most of my complaints don't rest on any BJD snarking community. But snarking communities in general. I just added some BJD examples to keep it more on topic. I find that it is really how the snarking community is set up, and how easy it is to follow through with harassment.

 

And to say that people won't find out about the site without looking is wrong as well. I had snark sites link to pictures that were hosted on my own domain/webserver. I learned of them because of the drain on my band width. They were using and abusing my band width, and which can become a legal issue. Because band width usage is something that can be sued over due to having monitary value, just as spam can be sued over.

Lycansea - Aggree with your comments completely!

 

Really? I've never seen that. There is no one saying all people who like Bobobie have mental problems. You however are saying that anyone involved with these sites are terrible people.

 

So now it's a legal issue because of bandwidth?

Actually, yes- that is a justified reason (though not the one you spent pages going on about) which is why when people on the Oh-So-Evil-Forum-Of-Doom spot people hotlinking, they are immediately told to knock it off. And hey, I've even seen posts and threads deleted if the hotlinking wasn't removed.

EDIT:

If it helps put your mind at ease, I have only ever seen this happen once in the BJD Snark community, and the people who did it (a couple of newbies) were chewed out so hard it wasn't even funny. I saw more anger aimed at that pair than I have ever seen elsewhere- it was not cool, not funny, and they were told so. Harshly.

The BJD snark communities may upset a lot of people, but as keeps being said- personal attacks are very rare, and greatly discouraged. It really is just people sharing a laugh over dolls they don't like the look of.

 

I've never been to the site, because I was under the impression that it existed purely for the purpose of shredding people and their dolls. It's good to know it's not like that. I still don't really like the idea of yanking a person's images from another site and posting them there just to insult them, though. That seems a bit troll-ish and strange. But then, I am old, and easily baffled.

 

A thousand times, this. This is a doll hobby. We collect dolls, we make them pretty, and we take pictures of them. I've yet to hear of anyone suffering from major self-esteem issues because someone didn't like their doll. That's really not a serious matter. It isn't going to ruin your life. Maybe you'll be kind of upset about it for a while, and your feelings will be hurt, but you'll get over it. If a little snark drives someone to quit the hobby entirely I have to wonder why they entered the hobby in the first place - was it for personal enjoyment, or for praise?

 

People who say they think their lols are more important than the risk of hurting someone's feelings, and that snark isn't against their morals-- I don't think it's nice of them, but at least I can respect that they are taking responsibility for feelings that get hurt.

What seems wrong to me most of all in this thread is the people who keep trying to shift responsibility away from the snarkers and onto the people whose dolls are targeted. That is blaming the victim, and it's not cool or responsible in any context. It doesn't matter whether it's about doll snark or something more serious-- it's still the same bad argument that's used to justify things a lot worse than doll snark, and it doesn't magically become a good argument when it's used in a less harmful context.

Daring to take the risk of posting pictures on the internet (and come on, who wouldn't be tempted to?) Finding out, perhaps by accident, that your stuff was mocked, and being unable to un-know that. Being sensitive and feeling hurt (or, even if you are thick-skinned, just not being able to get the negative criticism out of your head when you look at the doll you used to love, and having the joy taken out of it for you-- I know that's why I wouldn't want to know if my dolls were snarked, not because I'd care whether others dislike my aesthetic decisions but because I have a bad case of Cannot Unsee the flaws in things, and it would annoy the heck out of me to be less able to appreciate my expensive doll stuff because of something I can't stop noticing. Still haven't seen anyone address this reason for not doing it, instead of just "baw, grow a thicker skin"). These acts on the part of the target do not constitute the majority of the responsibility for what happened. They are a cluster of things someone didn't seek out or small decisions they probably never realistically expected were likely to come back to bite them. Moreover, the target didn't seek out trouble. The majority of the responsibility lies on the shoulders of someone who decided to stir up trouble around a picture. If someone is willing to actually shoulder that responsibility and say, "Sure, I don't mind that I hurt people's feelings!" --then I will probably think they're nasty poo-poo heads, but at least mature and honest nasty poo-poo heads.

I still think it's mean-spirited to post snark in a forum, which is a public place, where word can get around and hurt people. But at least the people who are saying they're willing to hurt someone's feelings for their lulz are owning their own behaviour, not trying to dodge out from under the fact that they did do it.