Cracking on other people's dolls where do you stand?

As mentioned above, yanking a person's images from another site and posting them there doesn't even happen-- it's immediately smacked down upon. And the person isn't insulted-- the doll is. Like chibaraki mentioned, insulting the hobbyist as a person is looked down upon and people have suffered swift punishment for things like "lol did you know that collector dresses badly too? What a loser!" I'm glad that this may have changed your view a little on the nature of the site. If anything, the-forum-that-shall-not-be-named is more often a source of baking recipes (pumpkin loaf was brought up recently), nail polish reviews, and sharing Youtube links along with pictures of cute animals than it is about dolls. Thank you for reading. : )

I do feel that there are definitely people who are in the hobby for praise. I enjoy the praise, and in some ways knowing that there's going to be praise and critique determines what photos I post. Photos of work in progresses and thoughtless snapshots are hidden away in my journal-- never to see the likes of forums where they are to be looked at as a completed piece of artwork. I do this because I understand that what I do post publicly will be scrutinized by others, and their judgment may be positive or negative. I accept that what I choose will determine what people think of my art-- not me as a person, but my art-- so that I make the effort to post up my genuine efforts. This is what I have determined I should do if I want people to respect me as an artist.

It's true that everyone has different standards on what level of finesse should be minimal for public viewing, however I think we hobbyists who do publish our work here should at least accept that when posting online in a forum like this we are placing our work for an audience to experience, and the audience has the right to provide feedback. This isn't about if they're mean or nice, because as I said before if you are willing to take praise then by the same stance you should be willing to take critique regardless of you liking it. If you do not like something, the adult thing to do is be assertive and move on. Even when my face-up was being criticized, there were still elements of it that I did like that I was willing to defend. This is about knowing and acknowledging what you're doing, and accepting the consequences with dignity and grace.

 

Unless someone wanted advice or critique I would keep my mouth shut. It doesn't do anyone any good to tear someone down for something so innocent. It's not like their ugly doll is going to destroy the world.

 

All of the doll "snark forums" I'm familiar with require membership to see any of the threads. There's no way to stumble across them on accident, in Google or otherwise. This is not to say they are top-level secure places and that members shouldn't be prepared to take full responsibility for what they say, should the posts made there get repeated in a more open location, but they're not nearly as "public" as they're being made out to be in this thread. (A minor correction, but one that needs to be made as the impression appears to be that all of this snark is being trumpeted in the open, if not advertised and spread like a virus.)

Blissfulchains, while I do sympathize with your extreme sensitivity, the truth of the matter is that at the end of the day, the world cannot be padded to a degree that will protect your feelings at all times. By taking their discussions to a private forum, snarkers are already doing all they can do to remove themselves from your sight while still remaining true to themselves. As I have said before, if "friends" are reporting things to you that you do not wish to hear, you must take that issue up with them.

 

Blissfulchains, you seem rather intent on ignoring the fact that people have refuted what you've said more than once. Instead you seem to prefer repeating the same refrain over and over again, which honestly makes me think you're less interested in debate than in forcing people into agreement with you. If your enjoyment of your 'expensive stuff' is tied to someone else's opinion of it, then you bought that expensive stuff for the wrong reasons. I also strongly disagree with you on the notion of there being a 'victim' at all. Your depiction of the average posters of subpar faceups/photographs/etc as swooning damsels is just silly.

 

Every individual is entitled to his or her own opinions. Even if they don't coincide with your own and are even unappreciative of you or your possessions. So what if someone thinks you're ugly, your mother dresses you funny and your dolls are nasty? That's their opinion and it shouldn't bother you. You should just ask yourself, 'They don't know me and so what do they know anyway?'

I've read almost everyone's replies and many of them are reminiscent of high schoolers who were made fun of and never found a healthy method of coping with it. Also, this hobby has a great deal of over sensitivity whenever criticism is brought up. Many individuals, at the drop of a hat, will take personal offense to comments not even aimed at them; although, there is a fine distinction between vocalizing an opinion and outright harassment which I am not defending.

Quite simply, not everyone is going to like you or your dolls, get over it and move on.

 

While this makes sense, there's a flaw in there: from what I've read in this thread, not everything is done for the laughs. Some is venting, some is simply voicing crit that can't be done here. While that isn't a necessary aspect of the rest of what follows, it is relevant, because motives are relevant. After all -- 'being nasty' is apparently a bad thing. To put it bluntly, if you are going to assign negative character traits and judgements to people based on your opinion of their actions, I feel it would likely be wise to actually base it on their actions, not what you think their motives are.

...back to the general stuff.

In reading more of this thread, and noting that it's the scammers that tend to get reamed repeatedly, I have to confess, if I was among the scammed, I would be all over the place there just to have venting space to bitch up a properly blue blue streak, and not for an instant would I give a flying fig if someone considered it 'mean'. And yet, it also wouldn't be for laughs, would it?

People should expect feedback that is both positive and negative for anything they do. This belief that only positive feedback should be allowed to be experienced is an utterly faulty one -- the condition only exists in artificial environments like the forum here, when the rules are properly followed. The world is not an artificial environment, where everything potentially sharp or awkward is bound up in bubble wrap, and it really shouldn't be, either. Maybe these people never realistically expected negative feedback, but that expectation, in itself, is an unrealistic one. I would go so far as to call it absurdly unrealistic. I genuinely do not understand where the mentality comes from that doesn't accept that both good and bad will be experienced out there in the world.

Beyond that, some people are oversensitive to a fault. I could randomly say 'I am not a fan of pink' -- because I'm not -- and out of any batch of people of any reasonable size, at least one of them will find their panties in a wad because pink is their favorite color and oh mah gawd how can I not see the brilliance that is pink and it's their favorite color so my not loving it is a horrible criticism of their lifestyle and mocks their childhood and is somehow also grossly sexist and dang I should be ashamed of myself. And that person will rarely have any trouble expressing all of that, to boot, while they verbally gnaw your face off like a rabid weasel, and hey, calling you anything is fair game, because 'you were the mean one'. (Sadly, that is far less comedic exaggeration than I sincerely wish it was.)

Yes, this kind of person does actually interfere with my enjoyment of life in general.
Yes, there are a lot of them around -- more every day, it seems.
Yes, I do think this sort really does need to grow a thicker skin, or, more accurately, realize the whole world does not revolve around them, and their likes are not somehow any more sacred or immune than everyone else's.

The talk of bullying, in general, is gross hyperbole to me. I've been through the brutal physical kind of bullying, and real emotional abuse. Seeing people liken 'I don't like your doll faceup' to that is, well, I don't know whether to feel insulted or to start guffawing, really. Perspective appears to be the core issue here and it doesn't seem like people really want to touch it with a bargepole when forming their opinions about this topic, and I can't help but find that a bit ironic.

 

You know what? This is very true. Some people think that saying 'your doll is ugly' makes it OK for them to insult you, wish you harm, criticise your lifestyle, your clothing, your body shape- I've even seen people crack on the sexuality and religious beliefs of the people who have dared to say that they do not like their dolls. Funny how people rarely mention that, or try to vilify them for saying things that are infinitely worse than the words that originally offended them....

I wish I was joking, but I'm not.

Now, I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for what you say, and if someone insults me because I dislike their doll, I will take that on the chin. Just so long as the person who does it understands that then turning around and saying 'if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all' is both hypocritical at that point- and also kind of pathetic. Responsibility for words and actions goes both ways, after all.

 

If this is true, it must be a recent change to how Google Images works. I think I found out about the existence of DoA in the first place by finding images on Google Search with urls leading back here-- no, I couldn't see the thread, but I could see the images. And if the url is back to a snark site, people are going to know they have been snarked. Regardless of whether it works that way anymore or not, it's not as private as you're claiming it is. Can't you just lol about it with your friends? Why do you feel you can only express your feelings if you put them on a site that is basically open for the public to join and see? Did people never express themselves before the internet existed?

It may not be "friends" you even know very well. It may not even be "friends", just well-meaning acquaintances. You can't just insist to everyone you meet, "Before you start interacting with me on a basis where you might feel inclined to do me the favour of letting me know if someone talks behind my back, I want you to always know and remember that I don't want to know if it happens." It's not like it has to be one specific person who is secretly out to get you. It could be genuinely well-meaning people who just don't realise that you might prefer not to know.

You know, I just keep hearing people say this, like-- "The world already sucks, so it doesn't matter that we're the ones making it suck." It's the snarkers' responsibility to accept that they are the ones making it suck. "Being true to themselves", in this case, means that some people are going to think they're kind of mean. Snarkers are being true to what IMHO is meanness in themselves. If they don't like that, they can make a change in themselves.

You say,

And I say, the truth of the matter is that the end of the day, my opinion that it's mean and nasty will not change to a degree that will protect snarkers' wish to see themselves as nice and innocent. You can't have your snark and still be the "good guy" in my book. One or the other.

 

...actually, no, I keep bringing up the things that have not been addressed or refuted. I keep hearing the other side gloss over my stuff and not respond to it, which is really annoying. Like, the post directly above you was the FIRST time anyone has ever said anything about whether you could find images on Google Search despite that I kept on saying "won't someone PLEASE address this possibility."

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but that is exactly what I am doing. I just happen to do it on a forum because these people live in another country. If they lived next door to me, I'd do it in the kitchen over a nice cup of tea, but alas, they are not so close at hand.

You are well within your rights to dislike people for being snarky, but you keep insisting that we are victim blaming. We are not. As has been said before: the unfortunate truth is that not everyone in the world will get on with you and share your views. And there is no reason why these people should keep their mouths shut just because you don't like what they say- if that was the case, then by rights you too should say nothing, ever, in case you offend someone else. And that would lead to a very quiet, dull world indeed.

As for google pictures... I honestly couldn't say, I don't know how it works. All I know is I have never found my own doll pictures either here or on the other forum by using it- even if I search the exact picture titles and/or phrases in the threads. I just tried it. (But interestingly, one did pop up on Deviantart- and linked right into my account there. Even though I deleted the picture from the account a while back. O_o Weird.) I can only assume that they have changed how it works, or... I dunno...

 

The people who say "it's your responsibility not to put the pictures on the internet" / "it's your responsibility not to know about it" / "it's your responsibility not to be so oversensitive and feel hurt by it" are. If you're not doing that, I'm not addressing you. I am addressing the multiple people on here who are doing that.

Yeah, and I'm exactly exercising the same right as you are, right now, to tell you that I find public snark mean and offensive. If you are bothered by it, you should take your own advice, and realise that not everyone in the world will find your behaviours polite, acceptable, and kind.

ETA: About the public/friends-next-door thing, what happened to email? Private messages? Why put it on a dubiously public forum when we're not sure how easy it is for people to find out about it unintentionally? It's not like you are unable to contact your friends in private just because they aren't next door.

 

In that case, I apologise- because you and I are in fact in complete agreement on the matter, and somehow I have been misreading your posts.

 

And I love all the excuses the Snarkers give. PLEASE explain to me why there is snark on a forum about doll snark, that is directly insulting to me. That I'm insulted repeatedly (my dolls as well, but there are plenty of attacks directed at me, and not removed by mods) there, that someone even mentioned 'punching her [me] in the face'. Please tell me how this isn't harassing, and threatening. That I found the site not because someone told me but due to the site draining my band width. And I have done NOTHING in regards to being a scammer or a bad person, etc... (check out my feedback). I (not just my dolls but me) get snarked on, why? And it's even from those people in this thread who are claiming innocence. I frankly don't care for the most part, because I know it's mostly jelously and I keep enjoying my dolls. But yeah, it's laughable when people give excuses to why they are doing such, and yet I am here as an example that what I'm saying happens is totally true and what they are claiming to happen is a lie.

Oh and trust me, I have been keeping records to press charges should their actions continue (expecially if they get worse), because I don't put up with it, and guess what, I don't have to.

 

"That forum" doesn't grab and rehost pictures for snarking purposes because they belong to the person who originally took them. They just post a link to the thread on DoA (or LJ or Resinality or dA or whatever) where they were originally posted by the owner.

 

So if you can't see it, its ok? If this were going on in say emails or meet ups you would be ok with it? As long as there is no chance of you stumbling over people talking about you?

And you can have snark and not be a 'bad guy'. Have you ever actually been to the site in mention and actually looked? No one is talking about the people. Yes it is possible that people could stumble upon a photo of their doll on a snark site on Google. To read what is even being said you'd still have to sign up and log in. There are also threads there devoted to beautiful dolls and dolls in general. Chibaraki mentioned one of the most popular threads is about Soom Monthlies. Not ragging on how hideous the mold is, but people talking about what they like and dislike about each one, things being said, what they'd do with parts, general stuff.

 

Actually, yeah. I said earlier in the thread that that doesn't bug me nearly as much.

I'm taling about snark sites in general, not just one particular snark site, and yes, I have looked at (other) snark sites, though not that one. And in my opinion, talking about someone's hard work on a faceup or their aesthetic choices does reflect on them, so yes, if the talk gets nasty enough, it could be pretty insulting to that person.

I realise I may be in the minority, but I'd rather someone tell me my face (which I didn't put out as a personal expression of my inner self) is ugly than that something I designed is ugly. Not saying I'm particularly omg sensitive to either, just that I think this argument of "attacking the dolls is not hurtful; it's not like we were calling a person ugly or whatever" is not universally applicable to everyone, and it sort of assumes a lot about the feelings and motivations of the strangers being targeted, when maybe we shouldn't assume.

 

Piyoko - Sorry I call BS. They do talk about the PEOPLE. I have been talked about, and I'm not a scammer, or done anything wrong as far as transactions, so please try another lie to justify their actions. My dolls have been refered to, but also they have directly made fun of me.

 

I'm a legal assistant. I work in an office that specifically handles trial preparation for some absolutely insane cases. Your attempts to use BS legal validity to prop up your personal opinion and argument are incorrect - as has been pointed out every time you've raised one. The bandwidth issue - if they were hotlinking for profit, or infringing on intellectual property, then yes, it would be a legal issue. Otherwise it's just impolite. Most sites that discourage hotlinking do it because it's either against the ToS or because they don't want any IP-address trackback. Not because they fear teh legalz.

Also, really? You think bringing the drama of a lawsuit will help /stop/ a snark situation? Because history has proven that getting your panties in a twist and posting butthurt on the internet is pretty much the fastest way to make sure the original issue goes viral and global in the shortest amount of time.

As for snark on the internet, I'm all for it. I'm on a bunch of snark comms. That does not make me a libelous bully. It makes me opinionated, and means that sometimes my opinions aren't all sprinkles and marshmallow fluff. Being aware of that, I keep them to a private, members-only community where they are least likely to upset or offend anyone when expressed. It's also a community where, if I stick my foot in my mouth, someone else is going to immediately stick a foot in my.. you can figure it out from there. It definitely doesn't make me two faced - if asked, I'd give the exact same opinion to the person in question. I'm entitled to my opinion, I'm not entitled to shove it on someone unasked.

If the people in That Community started ganging up and doing things that would have an effect in /this/ community, like deliberately bumping posts in the marketplace to 'bury' an item they were snarking on, that would be bullying. That, however, isn't what goes on and I'm absolutely certain it would be stomped flat if someone attempted to start it and the stomping would be immediate and merciless. The forum is opinionated people expressing sarcastic, sometimes negative opinions in a forum where they will be validated, mocked, or shot down - sometimes all three in the same thread. Don't want to read them? Don't go there. Nobody's forcing their opinion on the general public. It's a moderated, members-only forum. You have a choice whether to go there. Don't like what goes on there? Choose not to go there.

The Internetzwebz are not a Nice Place. Den of Angels is, by the terms of use for it, a designated Nice Place, and it's kept that way by the users and the mods. It's safe for children. I really appreciate it being a Nice Place and wouldn't blast off here with my sometimes negative opinion specifically because I appreciate that it is a Nice Place and as a user, I want to keep it that way. The Other Comm is a place to blow off steam with other snarky, sarcastic folks that I know will not get upset or cry or lose their will to live or sell off all their dolls because I've just destroyed the hobby for them by saying "Man, that faceup is awful!"

/rant

 

Then I have good news for you. The site mostly being talked about here isn't public. Its like a bunch of friends messaging each other. We set up accounts there just like here and until you log in nothing can be seen.

 

So does that mean they won't show up on Google Images? See, I don't know what that means. If this actually refuted my point when people said it earlier, I didn't understand it. I only knew that I'd found DoA links on Google Images somewhere. Long tangent short, I wasn't trying to press on something that had been refuted, just... it wasn't clear to me how that refuted my point about Google Images.

Still doesn't get to the well-meaning acquaintances thing, so yes, I am going to continue to act like no one's refuted that one. Because, er, they haven't. Unless in a way that was totally unclear to me. And no, "you need to take that up with so-called friends" doesn't address the fact that people you don't know well enough to know you wouldn't like it might do it. Or even, gasp, someone who doesn't like you and does it to hurt you on purpose.