Debate format: Culture of Debt

Shido ^^ $30 for jeans... well if it's made from the factory and it's something plain i would say $30 is a lot but if it's made by a seamstress like a one off or a special one, it's a good price. A doll themselves cost a lot of money, my mum was going on how their clothes can cost more than ours after a while. it's true that's why i intend to learn to make him clothes. 1. to get a best fit and 2. to learn to sew and 3. save a bit of money ^^ it all works. back on topic

Against: I do reckon the case is up to the individual and every case varies from person to person.

If personally speaking, i would not overdraft or get myself into debt. why? It's not in my moral to, i hate borrowing money of friends even if it's cos i forgot my purse and i really need a drink. we always split the price between us. it's just how i am.

but i've seen ppl draw up their dolls on their credict cards. i personally don't like credict cards, it feels like spending future money. I would make a purchase when i kno i can afford the product. i.e. i save up longer to get my doll instead of lending money / layaway. I dunno it feels better for me i guess.

There are ppl who get themselves into debt for dollie purchases but equally ppl get into debt for non-dollie purchases. I kno this girl, in a week she spent $1400 or £600 GBP in a WEEK on clothes... not including other stuff she uses. then there are ppl spending much more than they earn on drinks, clothes, acessories or going out. it's not all dollies so i vote against.

 

AGAINST.

The defination of "culture of debt" simply states the person incuring debt through the credit card by way of purchasing an item with money they do not have at the time-- the reason I reiterate this is because there is no situation given where the person is "forced" to use this method. There really isn't a situation in BJD collecting where doing this is the only way.

I already hear an arguement to this: limited editions. Just because it isn't bought from the original company doesn't mean it can't be bought ever again. It might cost more, but down the road it doesn't effect you in a major way.

It all comes down to the person themselves- they don't need anything in this hobby, for the fact of the matter is BJD collecting is a hobby. To go the the lengths of charging a multiple hundred dollar item on a credit card that the person may not be able to pay back in time just doesn't seem like a very smart descision, at least in my opinion.

So they are late paying back the amount for the item- last time I checked, that reflects on your credit score. Also last I checked, that's not as easy to fix.

Ok... onto another point. Say this person gets into a habit of using their card to pay for the dolls, and they are able to pay back the sum by the time required. They have made this habit, and have been able to accomplish their goals in a good way.
What if something catastrophic happens? Death in the family? Loss of home? Even something as simple as not having direct desposit can throw this situation into disarray. Would the person be able to handle this finacially?


Now don't get me wrong- I am not saying that no one is capable of handling their own credit cards. That obvisouly isn't the case. For me, the risks outway the benefits, especially for something that quite possibly would be an impulse buy on my part.

In short, I'd hurt myself if I buy dolls this way.

 

Against

It's very easy to believe that BJDs perpetuate the culture of debt because most of everything in this hobby is expensive. The dolls are expensive and the accessories (clothes, extra heads, face-up, mods, etc) are expensive. The companies are frequently releasing new dolls, limited editions, that anyone who likes BJDs find it hard pressed not to buy another new look or style, with new clothes and accessories to go with them.

However, I believe that people who do spend a lot on BJDs, probably spend a lot on other things. If someone goes into debt, it's usually not over one single type of item but a multitude. I have read of people who speak of how little they have to spend, but was surprised to learn they continued to buy new BJDs, new games, new entertainment units... I think the culture of debt has more to do with the existence of credit cards and a lack of control on the part of the individual than because of the BJDs themselves. And...I'll end here before I get more incoherent.

 

Against

I do not believe that BJD purchases perpetuate a "culture of debt". What perpetuates a culture of debt are things that, in today's society, are essentials whose prices have inflated drastically over the years.

When I say "essentials" I mean things like mortgages, university/college tuition, and car payments. For example, in the small German town where I'm living this summer, everyone is completely reliant on their car or tractor to get from point A to point B, as buses are very infrequent. Or in my hometown in rural Canada, someone may have too many children to live in any home that is for rent, so they purchase a big enough house for them and their family. Or, as is in my case, I have decided that I want to work in an industry that requires that I attend university. So here I am, racking up the debt, regardless of the fact that I have purchased a BJD.

Further to that, I do not understand why it is - at least in the pages of this debate - seen to be a "bad" thing to use a credit card to buy a BJD. If one has or can get the money to purchase/make the payments on time and can manage their credit card appropriately, I do not see the problem with this tactic. In fact, it can be, when handled appropriately, a great way to get the dolls you want and pay for them on a schedule that fits you best.

Is putting a $600 doll to credit and putting $200 back on your credit card once a month for the next three months any worse than just forking over $600 that you saved? To me, buying on credit and managing that effectively requires the same amount of patience and penny pinching as throwing change into a jar. Sacrifices still need to be made.

And if one can't pay off their doll immediately, it doesn't mean they're bad with their finances: Sal's on my credit card and still hasn't been fully paid off, due to the fact that I had to replace my laptop computer about two weeks after she arrived. The money I had put aside for my Visa payment went toward that computer. So now I'm making minimum payments until my job begins. The point I'm making here is that we can't forget that sometimes circumstances add to debt as well: cars breaking down, computers dying, someone getting sick and going to hospital... It's not just BJDs that contribute to debt. Sh*t happens sometimes, and you may have to go about being financially stable in a different manner. Keanna has already stated this wonderfully.

Sure, there are the people who view their Visas and Mastercards as free dolly vouchers and continue to rack up the debt, but those people are ineffective at debt management and money spending habits and would most likely view those Visas and Mastercards as free [insert high priced item here] vouchers regardless of what they're into.

"I have read of people who speak of how little they have to spend, but was surprised to learn they continued to buy new BJDs, new games, new entertainment units..." LKJ, I am just as surprised as you when I hear such statements. Frankly, to me, they don't make sense. I get a little frightened for people that I see who own tens of dolls and are stressing over money. However I'm inclined, as LKJ said, to believe that these people have money management problems anyway, and BJDs are not the cause.

But this is getting a little rambly now, so I'll conclude here: BJDs do not perpetuate a culture of debt. Expenses like tuition, mortgages, and car payments do this more than any particular consumer item. Using credit cards to buy a doll when you do not have the full price in your pocket is not necessarily indicative of bad money management, and can actually be a good way to purchase dolls in the right circumstances.

 

For:

I think the BJD Hobby lends itself splendidly to a Culture of Debt.

I think it's a given that doll people are sentimental by nature. If you fall in love with a pretty/cute face and you *have* to have it, it's very easy to find yourself slipping into debt on occasion... or even perpetually.

Of course as responsible adults we can't blame anyone but ourselves if we go into debt, but I think it's easier to do in this hobby perhaps, than say, stamp collecting... often "collectors" of things will have to buy something to 'complete' the collection per se, but that will up its value and help offset whatever initial investment is made.

With BJD it's (supposed to be) about heartstrings and 'bonding'. It's hard to remain practical. We are also encouraged to buy but never sell, and those who *have* to sell to buy anew may feel as if they're being frowned upon.

There is a strong social component to this hobby, which may be hard on people who are terribly sensitive to such things, and that can exacerbate the situation.


Raven

 

I disagree with the debate statement.

I notice that when people state that they can't afford a doll, they get loads of suggestions on how to save up the money, ready to buy it. There are, as far as I can see, very little comments encouraging borrowing the money for a doll. People do make little jokes about dolls running up their debt, but I don't see it expressed in a serious way.

The dolls don't force us spend money we don't have. They are just one of so many temptations in this world and it's up to us how (and if) we afford them.

 

For -

People are absolutely responsible for their own buying habits. But if a person is already inclined to budget poorly, the doll culture definitely encourages more debt.

Limited editions and limited time deals say "buy it now or lose out!" There are dolls I will never have because I was not in that first time frame.

And the community definitely does ignore some dolls and reward owners of others that are more popular.

The statement is not that it causes or is the sole source of a culture of debt, which is what most people are denying in this thread, but that it adds fuel to the fire, and it certainly does.

BtA

 

Against

Yes, the case varies person by person, but in this case, talking about a debt means someone who cannot financially support the cost of the doll, or whatever it is they're buying, without using a credit card.

Bascially it comes down to if you're willing to bear the consiquences of your actions. Yeah, it's an instant gratification at the moment, being able to get the doll, but there are going to be a lot more things to deal with if you create a much bigger debt than you can afford to pay back. Your credit will stink, making interest on just about anything you NEED (car, home, etc) sky rocket, if you can get financing at all. It puts stress on you, your loved ones, you SO (if you have one). It's not healthy.

Pretty much it's whatever you personally feel like dealing with. Me? I'd rather not have to worry about the water guy coming to shut stuff off.

 

Well. It really depends.. I'm sort of "for" and "against". While I do understand the price of the dolls (most of them anyhow), I feel the prices for wigs, eyes, clothes, ect can be outrageous. But I suppose, since people will pay $600 for a doll, they'll pay more for doll clothes than HUMAN clothes. ($50 for a pair of doll jeans? Jeez, I need a pair, I'll get myself some for $30.) But of course, there are ways around that, such as sewing your own clothes, trying to make eyes and fur wigs, ect. Even if it doesn't turn out successful, it was good to try, right?

There needs to be a BJD Goodwill.. XDD

EDIT: Okay, reading other posts, I don't think I expressed my opinion correctly. Basically, "against". Everyone is responsible for what they spend, and no one NEEDS a BJD. Yes, they are expensive, but I don't think they "fuel" the culture of debt just by being expensive.

 

Against.

The objects don't fuel a culture of debt, the culture does. If that makes any sense. It's the social climate of on-upsmanship that keeps people in debt, not any specific luxury. I could buy a doll on credit, but I don't. If I did, it wouldn't be the doll's fault--it would be mine for trying to live outside my means.

Money is all pretend anyway.

 

For.

It is my own idea that every luxuries "fuel" the culture of debt, when people become addicted to them. And every kind of luxuries is indeed not needed to survive.
I think people that like dolls usually are "addicted" to them and the fast release of new kind of dolls could be a strigh way that leads to debts.
This is only my point of view, anyway.

 

Sorta for, sorta against, I belive.

I'd say that it does heavily rely on the people themselves and how they choose to decide what's OK on credit, and what's not. Currently, my credit is directly attached to my bank card. I don't use it as debit in stores very often as it makes me parinoid punching in my works-half-the-time PIN number. More places seem to accept credit rather than debit, but for me, it's the same account and I can be assured that what is already in my checking account will have paid off my credit in an hour.

A lot of debt I belive, is from too much reliance on a montly billed credit, and the idea that if you have something, there's something with more bells and whistles that will cost more, but have more "wow" to it (many whom I've seen with this particular spending style do so for social reasons).

Overall, I'd place luxury items very high on the list of debt causes. People don't seem to think as much about it when it's a hobby item*, or even a pricer car than the one they were first thinking about, as they do if they're attempting to take a student loan, mortgage, or the like.

* (in which I lump everything from BJD's to clothes to going to a fast food more than once in a while)
So no, not the dolls alone, but people's habits, understanding of how credit works, social pressures, items, they're all a part of it, people just need to be aware of what they are doing when they are doing it, not after.

On another note, I don't feel that the "get out of debt now" commercials help in the sense of "whoa, i should be careful" as much as it helps their own business to go "hey look, spend, then come to us and we'll make it all go away".

 

For

I think the Marketing side of the hobby definately does fuel consumer debt. For instance many companies annouce a limited doll only weeks or days before its release making it so there is no time to save. Unless you continually save for what might happen (which many people do not) you get stuck either not being able to buy a doll or having to pay for it over time.

Personally I haven't ever bought any BJD stuff that I didn't already have the money for but its been very tempting several times and if there is something I want badly enough I may do it.

 

Slightly For but Mostly Against

I actually had to sell a doll because of real world problems, but it was really my bad habit of checking just my bank account balance instead of balancing my checkbook. I thought I had enough money but I hadn't realized that a rather large rent check I had written a couple months ago hadn't been cashed yet. By the time I did realize it I had already paid for the doll, the check got cashed, and I wasn't sure if I was going to have enough money to pay for the coming month's rent. I'd blame society, but really I was being an idiot for not balancing my checkbook more often.

As a college student just completing her third year I am currently about $45,000 in debt with school loans. With books being about $500-900 a year, rent, food, gas, and a really crappy part time job during the school year I'm really tempted to pay for a lot of things with my credit card and pay the minimum payment. However, almost everything I'm tempted to buy like that is always more essential stuff. Clothes that don't come from the Goodwill. Food that isn't ramen. Anything that doesn't come from Wal-Mart. For dolls I seem to realize that they're enough of a luxury that I don't buy them like crazy (except for the one time when I had the rent problem). I've bought each of my dolls a nice outfit, a cheap spare or two, and after finding an eye/wig combo that works for them I've had no problems with leaving them in a hairdo/outfit combination for months on end with no desire to change it.

At the same time I have been slightly jealous of people who've had money to spend on the newest LE's and a couple times I've been really tempted to buy dolls on credit when I know I can't afford them. I would have loved to buy a Reisner from the last Dolpha. Man I wanted one >< but I knew I hadn't the money to afford him and the NY Dolpha so I'm saving for that one instead in hopes that I'll have enough money to afford a the trip and a doll. I was really, really tempted to just put it on my charge card instead.

 

Against:

In my opinion, something contributes to a culture of debt if it is <i>impossible</i> for someone to buy it without borrowing. In most cases, that means it is both expensive and something you need to have in order to start paying for it. If you need reliable transportation to hold down a job, you're going to have to get a car. If you find a job in a certain city, you're going to need to move there first. If you're going to have a really cushy job, you've got to get through school. People don't write checks when they buy thier first house, or even a new car, they argree to a payment plan they can afford while meeting all thier other monthly monetary obligations and goals. Even people with high salaries don't get the whole big chunk of their yearly wage to carry around in thier pockets all at once, and in today's world there are alot of things it's just not realistic to expect to be able to buy outright.

A BJD, even a top-of-the-line expensive one, is a purchase someone with limited means could make with a little budgeting. And it's not anything you have to have. Furthermore, when there are essential things one MUST buy on credit, a BJD, paid off in a timely fashion can help show potential creditors that they're responsible enough to handle one of those bigger debts.

 

Dispite arguments to the contrary this hobby is very community driven.

Companies don't need to advertise aggressively when the community encourages their friends to "treat themselves".

There have even been threads about how to justify doll purchases, how to convince parents to allow the purchase. There have been threads about the "benefits" of this BJD hobby and the most insideous: how to convince other people to get into it.

Infact many people said they learned about BJD through their friends or that they got into it because of their friends.

By and large some assume that if things go bad financially, they can just sell their doll and make their money back. So there isn't a real sense of consequence.

Ultimately, people just aren't policing themselves as well as they should.

 

I expect it does fuel the culture of debt, but things are expensive and I believe a little debt is OK, as long as you have a regular pay off plan that you 100% stick to, and you keep it under control.

On the one hand, it's important to preserve money for your future and create stability for youself, but I think it's also important to live in the moment a little, recognising how fast things can change and that a little 'carpe diem' can be very life affirming.

As usual, everything in moderation.

 

I am against that...

My doll has actually helped keep me out of debt. Instead of going out and buying a lot of cheepy junk I don't need, I have one high quality doll and I hand make all her clothing from scraps. She's helped me from compulsive buying when I'm bored. I also have the rule that I'm not allowed to buy dolls on credit. They have to be purchased with money I actually have. This is why I don't have a second doll yet. I plan on getting one soon, but not until I can pay for him all at once and still have money left to pay all my other bills. >_<

School, on the other hand, is what has put me in debt.

 

Against.

I think the over-spending comes from the person and not the habit. I know a LOT of people who do NOT collect, or have any interest, in BJD dolls who do the exact same thing with other things.

There are also many people, like myself, who collect BJD's and NEVER put them on a credit card. It is VERY difficult to have to wait all that time to save up the money, especially when once you have it it's another month (at best) that you'll have to wait.

In other words, BJD's are like any other hobby--some people will go crazy and have to have it RIGHT NOW, and others are able to wait out the time to save up for what they want.

 

Well, since it was turned into a for and against debate, I will say against because, as others have stated, it's not about the hobby it's about the community.

I think the culture of debt, as it's so called, is related to the hobby in that it is a luxury item much like Louis Vuitton purses and anime cels. Neither are necessities, both are desires, many people feel the desire to own such items more strongly than others and put themselves into situations where they simply shouldn't be spending the money due to the other high costs of living associated with being a young adult in just about any society.

I think another part of the issue is the age of the hobby and the people it attracts. As the age of the hobby declines, as it appears to have been, you have many people who are struggling with the real problems of debt like student loans, rent, medical, and anything else that unfortunately is part of being an adult. Getting even younger, there is the appeal of the hobby combined with youth which, depending on how young, means that the person aspiring to be an owner/collecter either is too young to work or simply isn't.

It is about the individual, but I have unfortunately seen a lot of situations in this hobby where I've been concerned about the financial situations of some who do fall into the immediate gratification lure. It's fine if you are financially independent and secure, and really no one can tell anyone how they should spend their money, but it does worry me because this problem exists in so many areas outside the hobby.

The price of the dolls is only a factor in that truthfully for most people they are expensive. I am happy when I see people encouraging proper saving and hard work, that is something about this hobby that makes me pleased. I am, though, equally saddened when I see people max out multiple credit cards in order to afford a doll which they admit feels like an impulse buy. Layaways are also fine. Some people work better on spread out budgeting.

In short, the more expensive the hobby the greater the consequences of irresponsibilty. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the hobby, just that with any investment it should be given careful thought. No one can tell anyone how to spend their money, but there's nothing wrong with encouraging responsible behavior, especially in a hobby with a growing youth population that may be attracted to other expensive hobbies.