Debate format: Culture of Debt

Against
You can't really function in society nowadays without some amount of debt, wether it is school loans, car loans morgage for a house etc... Credit when handled properly is a tool, rich investors very often invest the banks money and not their own!
However individuals have unhealthy relationships with money sometimes, they spend on stuff to fill some kind of emotional void in their lives.

Putting a doll on a credit card and paying her off over several months is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the payments do occur. For a young person regularly paying off your credit card bills is actually good for your credit rating and will help you get that car loan down the road. Not having a credit card at all will negatively affect you when you do need a bank loan that requires some kind of credit history on your part. The greatest lesson my grandfather ever thought me as a young girl was to save the money he kept giving me to get a piece of doll furniture I had asked him for when I was about 7 years old instead of just giving it to me. I did it in a few weeks, and felt so empowered and in control when I finally went to the store to get it.

That being said, yes fandom makes you feel like you need that special edition doll, marketing also reinforces that instant gratification thing, and let's face it those dolls are gorgeous. To me they are like getting a piece of art, you don't need it but it brings beauty in to your life and that has value to me, however I would not go hungry for one.

 

FOR (for the most part).

The credit card spending among bjd collectors is one thing that has struck me since I've entered this hobby. As Fireflytranc above points out, much of that has to do with how many of these dolls are released. So many of the manufacturers put their best dolls out in either extremely limited quantities, or with a short ordering window (which isn't usually announced in advance). When one sees a doll which one likes, if you don't order it immediately the chances are slim that you'll get the opportunity again. This leads to credit card fueled "impulse buys" of hundreds or thousands of dollars. Then next week another "must have" comes out. As has also been pointed out, the culture of this fandom encourages buying more dolls, buying the very best you can afford, not settling for anything less expensive than that super ultra limited dream doll. While I can't argue with the idea that if you're going to spend this amount of money, you need to make darn sure you aren't going to have any regrets after the fact, I sometimes question the wisdom of encouraging some of the newer, younger bjd fans to go for the $1500 doll at all costs rather than at least look for something less expensive as a starter. Add to this the judgment that comes from selling a doll. Look at how many "for sale" posts have long, almost apologetic, explanations for why the doll is being sold.
I do my best not to use credit cards at all for anything other than emergencies. If I attend a doll event, I put a set amount on a pre-paid card to use while I'm there, just to avoid paying cash. I've seen several dolls over the past year that if I used credit cards, I would have snapped up immediately. Now that time has passed, I don't even want most of them anymore, which makes me glad that I didn't have the means to buy them at the time.

Obviously bjds are not the primary thing, or even a major thing, in the grand national culture of debt. Still, in our own little circle they do contribute some unique factors to the problem.

 

People fuel the culture of debt. We choose to spend within our means or use credit responsibly, and if our compulsion puts our ability to survive and live with the necessities in jeopardy then it is the individual that is serving a want before a need.

I have had my experience with building debt from buying ABJDs, but I worked hard to pay it all off and made sure it posed no threat to having the essentials and now I know I cannot afford to incur such debt so I am trying -- and so far succeeding -- to hold off buying any new dolls before I have the money in hand or promptly available to me.

But there's no question in my mind that WE drive the culture of debt and WE give over to it more than we should willingly and knowingly, and this is the dangerously perpetuity of the problem, in my opinion. We have the ability to save and deny ourselves, but we are creatures of our obsession sometimes.

What is important to is own the obsession rather than letting it own us, and then we can not only enjoy ABJDs but breathe comfortably while accumulating them.

 

actually i have to agree with u quite a bit. I do hope others will post again or else this debate will only be going for and against with seperate reasons but never debate.

anyways...i do have to agree, the BJG community is one of the problems for overspending. although the main fault lies with the indivual themselves. it is impossible to forget the influence of society. if we think of designer gear, are they necessary better than normal gear? not really, often we are buying the brand name the tag.

humans by nature are competitive creatures, we always 'want' and not everyone think about their 'needs' my mum reckons my 'want' does not justify my collection of dollies. I said i'll have one dollie, so i have one, but i realise i would want another one cos he's my fav so i'm saving up for him. my mum said "even if i let u buy this second u will not stop, u will buy more and more am i correct? u have started to think baout other dolls u can have." that itself is true. I have thought of a 3rd doll i want but he is further down my line.

I don't kno, i'm a type of person to thinking one or two of an object i'll be content. With my buying i could only have one doll, i don't mind really. but i can say it's not going to happen. as i have another doll coming from a contest and i kno i will buy an El. that's 3 in total. i'll like one extra head to work on like Shine, might get him hands and a cloth body but no more full dolls just yet.

It's worrying, it's nice the community encourage ppl to save, i do that myself. but i find it worrying when a few things happen,
1. young children at the age of 12- 16 unable to work are saving for a $800 doll.
2. young children that lie to their parents about getting a doll
3. people who spend more on their dolls than living

I reckon the only time to get a doll is when u kno u have no financial worries. getting my doll doesn't mean i have to resort to $5 clothes, i should still be able to afford nights out and $60 tops to see fit. my clothings range from cheap to expensive depends if i get them in UK or HK.

in our society we get into debt for various reasons, i'm going to start university and i kno i'll be in $20,000 of debt BEFORE i even start my 3 year course. but that's student loans which i find is an investment to my future. it's worth it.

but things like buying a doll and accessories really don't make sense to me as a must need. I understand some ppl are capable of financing their hobby and i'm very supportive of them getting their dolls. but when it comes to saving up all ur life money and surviving on cheap food, clothing and unable to pay of credict. them those need to re prioritize their money. u don't NEED to have a doll.

dolls are luxuries that not everyone can afford. before the luxury of a doll, we may need to think of the luxuries of having the bills paid, a roof over our heads, nice food and nice clothes. dolls make u happy i understand but having them but no life isn't as happy as some may see it. just my opinion.

still my arguement is Against

 

I don't really think that is the case, you see so many people saving on this forum.

 

I'm not sure if I'm for or against. I do think the BJD community pressures people that are already bad at budgeting into getting a doll anyway, just to belong. There's a thread in GD about getting a second job next to a full 40h/week dayjob to pay off that doll they already bought. It made my skin crawl (and yes, it might have been a case of OMG LE doll, must get NOW! before it's gone!, but still a doll is IMO not worth risking pure exhaustion, your health and subsequent doctor's bills over). Also, I've seen some people on other doll boards go: "Somebody sell me a BJD! I don't care what size or brand, I want a BJD!" The person in question being a 15-year-old girl who wanted one because she wanted to belong to the newest craze. So while I know most people are responsible enough to make sure they don't get in debt permanently, some people can't stand the wait or the community pulling at them and do unwise things.

 

It adds to it- but that is about it- Just as anything anyone is interested in adds to it, clothes, cars, whatever!

I pretty much live on credit, I ma not frightened of it and the debt dies with you.

However, I am no fool, I KNOW what trouble I could get in if I let myself get out of control. I can pay back amounts and regularly pay more than i need to into credit cards. I think it is a good idea to save, and some dollies have come out of savings, but I think if you have the means to pay off buying the odd one or two on credit isn't a bad thing. I f you are willing to take on the extra payment and understand it will cost you mroe in the long run, it is a personal choice.

 

I must say that BJDs certainly didn't help in my case!

I'm from Europe originally, so like fin5iver I was at first amazed at the American way of buying things on credit. But it seems the norm here! So it was all too easy to slip into that mindset... cars, houses, stuff like a new air conditioner, you just sign for it and think you'll figure out how to pay for it later. I'm not saying that everybody does this, some people are quite great at handling credit!!! But it is a problem, especially in the US, that is in my opinion perpetuated by the culture and businesses that advertise with slogans like "Want it NOW? Pay it off later!".

It is probably extreme in my case because I am bipolar and was badly under control last year, so among other stupid things I ran up a huge amount of debt. And, at least half of that debt is from BJDs. It was quite a shock to get better and realize just what I had done.

Now I have to go through the gut-wrenching process of selling some of my dolls to pay off my debt. Trust me, that feels much, much worse than having to wait and save up for a doll you really want. Luckily I only have one Limited that would be very hard to replace. From now on, I will save and save only for dolls. At least that way, I know I'll be able to safely keep them forever.

 

AGAINST:

I think that this is a society of debts. Honestly, the fact that we have credit cards and cannot buy certain things without the use of one of these things leaves us most open to debt. You can barely buy a car, house, appliances and heck even a hotel room without using a credit card as buying or holding said item.

It's not a matter of the item in question, but the way of buying and if you have to have some form of credit. Any item that you can't pay up front with all the cash in hand... will have the possibility to incur debt. So the fact that people are falling into debt isn't just because of the BJD obsession but the way of buying.

 

For and Against...


I think that any, non-necessary material good can contribute to this "culture of debt." It can be anything. Designer clothing, music, movies, anime and manga, video games, books, new electronics, a big home, collectible figures, and yes, of course ball-jointed dolls. So really, many things can contribute to it. It all depends on what poison ya go for.

As for myself, I have to admit, I am not the best saver. I spend lots on my credit card, but I am able to pay most of it off fairly quickly. However, my particular card has no interest, and that's primarily the reason that I spend the way I do. If my card did have interest, I certainly would not be spending like I do now. Some people do though, so I'd say it really depends on the individual person.

However, I do think that this society we live in is very materialistic, and it seems that a lot of media and even other people try to push you into "keeping up with the Jones" so to speak and there's a lot of pressure in having the newest, best things that come out. I work at a certain yellow-tag electronics store, and a lot of people buy things they do not need and could possibly put them in debt. No one NEEDS a 60 inch plasma high-definition television. Not that I'm complaining about them buying it, because it gives me a paycheck.

It's just how society is, really, long before BJDs. ^^

 

Depends on the individual

If you have established credit and are good about paying your bills and have an acceptable credit score, go for it.

If it's your first credit card and you're spending yourself into debt real fast before you can pay down your balance, you're headed for trouble. It's especially tempting when you're in college, don't have a job (or don't have a job that pays particularly well) and get that first, shiny card, and then you go bananas with it.

I think in general, it's good sense to pay for things with money you have on hand by saving. While I'm doing fine at paying off my big ole' heap of consumer debt, I am scared about what would happen if I lost my job (well, aside from doing things I'd rather not do, like selling off my dear, sweet Jun Tachibana and sweet Evenstar repainted Mai for mucho bucks). There are things one can do in this event, of course, but it's still scary. You don't want to be in that situation. The way to not be in that situation is to put things on your card and then pay off the balance immediately. Credit card companies dig that. They dig it more when you make those minimum payments, but they go for that, too.

At the same time, having credit isn't a bad thing so long as you don't do dumb things like run up your balance in the span of a week's time or defaulting altogether. You need to have some established credit for things like buying a car or a house.

I think it depends on the circumstances and the individual's track record. If you know you're a bit reckless with credit (like me!), listen to the voice of your Catholic* upbringing that tells you everything you do is wrong and a sin and you'll go to hell and you'll die if you spend $700 on a doll with money you don't have on hand that you don't need to survive when there are children starving in other countries.

* = replace as needed

 

I say against....but on the fence the more I think about it

I say against cause I know many others that go into debt for a brand new car or a new outfit or any number of things they don't exactly need to be at the top. No one needs a new car, but they want one so they end up getting a loan and end up paying almost twice the value of the car in the end. Our culture here in the states is more about looking good and having the best car and house and name brand clothes that just don't really matter. The dolls do not really add to it as there are not enough collectors to feed the "must-have list" our culture has.

Now after having wracked up a number of bills (school and car mostly), I would take the time saving up for something as it helps prevent the impulse buy that putting a doll on a credit card would bring. These statements make it sound as if I am for dolls encouraging the whole culture of debt, but that is why I am on the fence with this. A credit card just for doll things would encourage wreckless spending by a person that has poor impulse control and it has been said in the thread before this response, it's a person by person. Some will save and purchase the doll that way, others will put it on a credit card and slowly pay it off and add to their debt. Although not to put a bad name to credit cards, it is often more secure to put the doll purchase on a credit card because it is often more secure and more accepted than a bank account hook up to paypal. If the balance of the doll is waiting in the checking account for the next credit card bill to come in, that is not wreckless. A secure payment was made with funds the person already had for the doll.

So in the end, just like the human buying the doll, the doll does not need "name brand" clothes or shoes or even wigs. There are sites out there that have a number of cute things for a lot less than a doll company might sell them for. A expensive outfit now and then would be okay, but if a person must decide between that item and paying a bill. The bill is more important than a doll. They are dolls and do not need anything, nor does one really need one. They are luxury items that are meant to be purchased as a rare treat, not a regular purchase.

 

I had a very big problem when I was heavy into cel-collecting. In cel collecting everything is unique and you are unlikely to /ever/ see a particular cel again, so I was possessed with the 'need to have' regardless of if I could actually afford it. $6000 later, I learned my lesson and am proud to say that the debt is paid off, and that now, while I do make use of 'layaway' on the forums, it is not because I cannot afford it, but because of the convenience of being able to spread out the funds over a month or few weeks, or in order to cater to the flow of my incoming cash. Now that I have 'fixed' myself, I intend to take the step further in saving up before buying, and setting for myself particular wants in order to avoid buying gorgeous dolls that do not serve a character purpose, or do not fit in well with my collection.

We have to remember, as collectors, that while our dolls are unique personalities, they are not unable to be duplicated. Make a habit of right-clicking the pictures of dolls you like, rather than charging them. You will always be able to find that doll model in the future.

 

Against.
Debt whether personal or professional, is a choice. You can chose to spend money you don't have in the form of loans, or credit cards. However, if you cannot pay it, then you have gone past your means. This action is a personal choice.

To blame a "hobby", regardless of how expensive or costly said hobby is, on the expenditure of capital to the exclusion of other debts, is rediculous. If anyone is to "blame" I would point the virtual finger at media. Media, vis-a-vis television, music and internet is the programmer of popular culture. The Big Brother of this generation.

It is true, as individuals we have the option to turn off the media, I for one exercize that option, but many younger people have not been taught, or have forgotten that they can do that. They watch the flashy images of delightful things being presented to them with the promoted concept of "buy this, own this and be cool". It's an old story, once that goes back to the very first entrepreneur. Flash sells. Sex sells. Glitter sells. And everyone wants to be "cool".

I find no evidence in and of itself that shows or states that buying an expensive doll is a credit disaster. Mind, the doll in question by no means matches the debt incurred by purchase of an automobile or house or land. However, for a minimum wage worker, a student, or dependant, it could be construed as a financial mistake.

However, no matter whether you buy the doll on credit, use layaway, or cash, it is not, I think, a matter of The BJD industry forcing an incurred debt. Has anyone gone bankrupt from buying a resin doll?

What may be at issue is whether the person contemplating or in fact purchasing said resin doll has the means to do so freely. And that is a problem they should have learned at their parents knees, to control their impulses, to plan ahead, to think before leaping. That is not something to be blamed on an industry.

 

It all depends on the person. Paypal, is a huge contibuting factor, along with buying things online and ebay. Though, when it all comes down, we must blame ourselves, not dollies.

 

Against mostly...

I don't think bjds are really the cause--on this forum, bjds just happen to be what people are passionate about buying. While there are plenty of people who get themselves into trouble with their credit cards, there are those that budget very well. Plus when it comes to using credit cards, it isn't completely cut and dry. You have to look at how much debt they have from the dolls, plus how much debt they have from other things, and how much it negatively impact their lives. That's all going to vary from person to person.

Now having said all that, I'll go onto why I said "mostly" up at the top--it is true that when hanging out with fellow bjd people on-line and in person, it's very easy to swept up into spending, especially when it seems like a lot of other people are doing it. However, I don't think that this alone causes people to decide to put a lot on credit. It all come down to how much debt a person feels they can handle.

 

Personally, I have a great distaste for credit cards. The idea of spending money I haven't yet earned is just unpleasant to me. However, I've come to realize that using credit cards is really a necessary evil.

Credit cards = credit. Good credit = loans. Loans = cars and houses. In a capitalist society like the U.S., credit is everything, and that really rests on the 'buying on credit' method which credit cards rest on.

Debt, as long as it can be managed, is not a bad thing. However, like anything, in excess, it is incredibly harmful and damaging.

I hate using my credit card, and prefer to use debit, but, like in so many cases cited by other members, the arbitrary nature of the BJD world does not always present an opportunity to save.

But, even if that doll is a "dream doll," you'd be surprised at how easy it is to find you can live without it. You can lust after a thing, but practicality can lead you to find something you love just as well, but that is more in your means.

I'm all for finding the doll of your dreams, but not for it to completely wreck your life and wrack up an unreasonable amount of debt. The BJD world is not a direct contributor to debt; it simply presents more opportunities. And debt, if manageable, can be, if not helpful, an unpleasant issue that is necessary.

 

Agnist

I suppose I'm lucky. The dolls I really want arn't limited or hard to get. I've managed to get five dolls without a credit card. (I did the stupid young person thing, and now I don't have any.) What you have to do is budget.

If you get a nice tax refund, you can get a doll. If you are stuck working mandatory overtime for four months of the year, you can get a doll or two. If you can manage $50-$100 over what you need for basic living expenses, you can probably get a doll on layaway.

I can see how someone who falls for the limiteds and/or is very stupid with money can get into trouble, but you just need a budget and a little willpower.

 

Actually, LKJ I am confused. Why would anyone pay scalpers prices and in doing so, go into debt deeper. If we refuse to pay scalpers prices then they'd quit.

Paying for a buying service is another matter in and of itself. Most of my Unique or limited dolls came from a buying service. (It's cheaper than me going to Japan or Korea to get the doll myself....not to mention that horrid flight outta Minnesota.) I paid a fee for a service rendered. I also have no debt.

 

Mostly against.

Honestly, I doubt debt culture can be so easily attributed to any one thing. It's got a lot to do with societal values and views, rising cost of living, bank policies and promotion of credit being the answer to everything. Americans on average have like, 6 credit cards each. I'm 22, a full time uni student, and I regularly get mail saying I'm eligible to sign up for a gold visa card or some such - which is ludicrous! I can't afford to maintenance a card that has huge limits, large interest and short payback periods. Credit cards and other such companies make it so easy to fall into debt, as does a consumer society that is so fast paced, in which everyone 'needs' the newest thing, now.

Myself, I'm strangely terrified of debt. The idea of getting a home loan even scares the bejusus out of me, even though I know it's pretty much a necessity unless I somehow win the lottery. The idea of buying anything I don't have the funds for gives me the heebejeebies, and although I've bought dolls on credit cards before, it's only because that was the only form of payment. I'd had the money in my bank account ready to go and repay the card asap. I'm a squirreler, and I save quite easily. I tend to forward-save, and have the money just sitting around ready for whatever I want it for, rather then seeing something and then saving up for it.


Hobbies, by nature, are not necessities. They're things we do for fun. As such, I think people that go into massive debt for hobbies or leisure activities are cutting off their nose to spite their face. If they can't afford to live, then how how are they to enjoy their hobby? You need to be able to prioritise - it's fine to spend, but it needs to be the appropriate amount at the appropriate time, not just when you're in 'want' with something.

I think however what yukihotaru and northern_raven said though has a lot of truth. This kind of hobby, along with other trends such as designer bags and such, is a lot to do with peer pressure. We talk ourselves into buying things easily, and we see other people doing it freely, so we figure it's OK. It also somewhat desensitieses us to price. Dropping $1000 on a doll, or any such thing would have been utterly ridiculous to me some years ago, and I never ever would have considered it. But as you get used to the hobby and get into the community and such, it all becomes 'relative', and sometimes $1000 doesn't seem like much at all. You start thinking, 'oh wow, that's a great deal'... when in fact, looking from the outside, it's utterly ridiculous. Spending a $100 on some wigs and stuff seems like small change. And the internet maybe gives it that extra little boost from the fact that it's all abstract numbers on the screen (isn't that the beauty of credit cards? All just little numbers) - you don't have to look at that huge pile of cash in your hand and think 'cripes, what am I doing? Do I need to spend that much?'... you just click a button and the little numbers change a bit, and you get some nice stuff in the mail.

That's the other thing with this hobby too - it seems like we gear it up that it's always about the 'new arrival'. We get so excited about something new, that it's almost like we're not properly participating in the hobby unless we're planning, saving for, buying, waiting for, fixing up, creating etc for a doll. I'm terribly guilty of this. I like the excitement of having a 'project' of some sort to work on, wether it be putting together a new doll or fixing up an outfit or doll look, 'just right'. All of this unfortunatly costs money, and promotes a lot of money flowing about.