Debate format: Culture of Debt

Absolutely For

Like the environmental harm done by the manufacture of these doll, the debt surrounding them is an issue that is denied or minimized by many of the posts here on DoA. It's frequently a case of, "Well, it's not good, but x, y, and z are all so much worse that it seems silly to worry about it". I find this Ostrich-like, head-in-the-sand attitude quite disturbing, but I am usually quite shy, so I try not to say anything about it.

However, as this is a debate thread...

First of all, the very fact that people do joke about going into debt to get a doll suggests that it is a well-recognized component of the community. People often joke about serious issues that make them uncomfortable, often as a way to make these issues less real and threatening. If debt were not a major issue here, then we wouldn't see so much talk about it on the forum. We would, in fact, have no "DEBATE: Culture of Debt" thread.

Second, regarding the overwhelming feeling that debt is fueled entirely by individuals; I find this to be as unwisely dismissive as the view that the 'American Obesity Epidemic' is fueled entirely by individuals and their specific vices. It is true that no one is holding a gun to my head and telling me, "This month, you're going to charge $2,000.00 worth of dolls and doll paraphernalia to your credit card, eat at McDonald's no less than once a week, and spend increasingly unhealthy amounts of time on the internet. Or I'll blow your brains out, and your little dog's, too". However, the umbrella cultures and various subcultures that we are immersed in do set the standards for what is acceptable and what is not. In America, eating many of your meals out is accepted as part of a modern, 'fast-paced' life-style. On DoA, using a credit card and dropping thousands of dollars with little pre-planning on a Limited Edition doll is socially acceptable.

This does not mean that there are not financially sensible people in abundance to be found on this forum. A lot of those sensible people have commented here, most of them to state that BJDs do not fuel the Culture of Debt. I am happy for those people, and shall strive to emulate them in the future. However, I do find this to be a little bit like a person of a healthy weight saying that all obese people are obese entirely because of their own inborn vices (laziness, stupidity, a weak will), and that it has nothing to do with the culture in which we live at all. If these sorts of things were entirely individual, then why don't we see a homogeneous mix of indebted and debt-free, slim and overweight, etc. individuals throughout time and space? I refuse to believe that human nature itself has changed much throughout history, or that the people in one geographic location are intrinsically more or less virtuous than others. So what does vary, and can explain the cultures of debt that arise? Geography. Physical resources. Technology. Culture. Not people.

Third, to address the thought that yes, debt is linked to culture, but BJDs and the culture that surrounds them do not themselves fuel the Culture of Debt; I will relate a personal account. Don't worry mods, it's not too personal.

I have known about BJDs for a few years. I've wanted one for ages. However, I never bought one. Then, I found DoA a few months ago. Before that, I had seen the dolls themselves, but never really immersed myself in the culture surrounding them. Within a month of joining the BJD culture, I purchased my first doll, and yes, I put it on my credit card. I will not lie and say that I had never put things on my card in the past that took me a few months to pay off. I have been in credit card debt before. However, it may be noteworthy that I had not put anything on it at all for the three months leading up to that doll purchase, with a $0.00 balance. I think that at least a small part of the reason that I ended up breaking my financially sensible streak was that I was lulled into a false sense of security about using my credit card due to the support that I noticed here on DoA for that behavior. Am I about to run screaming through the forums, bellowing, "Peer pressure made me do it!!!"? No, that would be absurd. There were plenty of other factors involved, including my own disposition, life circumstances, and emotional state. However, it is possible that I would not have spent nearly so much money if I had not found a community where it is socially acceptable to do so.

In closing, I would like to add that the dolls themselves do not really effect the Culture of Debt at all. The culture and attitudes that surround them do. Just like the saying that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. It's true. However, it's awfully hard to shoot somebody without a gun. And while BJDs and their fans do not single-handedly drive people to the poor-house, they have the potential to be the drop in the bucket that makes it overflow.

(Thank you for enduring my meandering mini-essay on the topic, folks. Despite occasional concerns and/or criticisms, I really do love this community )

 

-- Against --

As others have stated, the culture is fueled by a mindset of people buying things beyond their means-- that 'thing' can be a doll, electronics, vacations, etc. It's because instant gratification is a strong pull for a lot of people (myself included) and the idea that you can have something now instead of waiting to get it is always very, very tempting, because I personally believe it's very much human nature to go for what's in front of you rather than what might come later.

 

For

Like any other expensive, highly desired item, dolls do contribute to personal debt. In just a few months on this forum I have seen many posts about people who realize they cannot afford a doll, but buy it anyway, and there are always people who sympathize and say that it is okay. It sometimes seems like the view of expense is unrealistic- I have read posts where people have said that a 3-4 hundred dollar tiny doesn't really count as a big purchase because it was so inexpensive in relation to their other dolls. Yet they still might not have had that money to spend... it was an impulse buy. It just seems like spending a lot of money on impulse is perfectly normal here...

 

last year, I got into a very big debt.
As you may know, a 200 USD to americans is 1000 USD in my country. lets say i got in around 10,000. i cried when i found out, and wondered why since i always pay every month. well, in cc they have all this hidden charges, like currency fees, foreign purchase fees, etc.
most of them were on dolls :/ my illness was worsening at the moment, and i buy them to make me happy because im trying not to depend on anti-depressant and stuff. i know its a very stupid thing to do, but many cant help it but get sucked into this buy-now-pay -ater scheme.
with the help and support of my significant other i lowered it down from hazardous level and he gave me a lower spending limit card instead of that 10k spending limit.
im usually in control of my spending and thrifty in clothes and household stuff, but when my mood plummets dangerously, would turn to dolls. instead of convincing that "I" need a new outfit or jewellery to make me feel better, I convinced my dolls need new wig or eyes or outfits and you know the price of their stuff is inhumane at times but i told myself its worth it because of the quality and i rarely pamper them bla bla bla.
so i too feel its safer to have a lower spending limit. we also make sure that some part of our combined paycheck goes to that debt, and i do feel better seeing it getting lower. I went to look for financial advices, read about it and even watch oprah's debt diet
but what i think nots helping is people would take a loan to pay off their debt and probably that work for certain individual but more than often things get worse.

 

mostly against


I have to be I put 2 dolls on my credit card. No problems no stress and my card is payed off less then 2 years later.
I also have a loan for a new car and house. if you want all those things in life you need to have good money managment skills. And putting 20$$ a week into your savings account isnt a bad idea either.

my income is soso . honestly i'm 24 work in safeways meat dept and live alone and still have enough "CASH" to have fun. So my theory is if i can make it others can too.
i know that others can get charge happy with credit cards. I guess i really cant understand way because i'v never had that problem.

 

Not Relevent
Sorry, but i can't go with this idea that BJD and debt are interlinked.
What people do with their finances is entirely up to them and if they want to put a $2000 doll on their credit card it's up to them.
You can't portray people as stupid or uninformed just because they want something badly enough to whack their puchases on a credit card and damn the consequences. We live in a world where we expect to have things sooner rather than later and i've seen a lot of people here on DoA that are saving for their dolls so obviously not everyone is prepared to get into debt for a doll.

No-one would question whether it was acceptable to get into debt to buy a car or house on credit, they are acceptable it seems because they are so expensive and people are not expected to have the odd $50,000 - £250.000 laying around in their bank accounts - so what's the difference with an $800 doll?

I don't see anything wrong with credit and i certainly don't see that there is a culture of credit abuse here on DoA. Individuals should be able to do what they want with their money and not have daft discussion threads posted to try and make them feel bad about their decision to buy a doll on their credit card.

All this is MHO and i'm feeling grumpy

 

I think a lot of people are getting credit cards and debt a little confused. To me, credit and debt are only related when you don't have the money to pay the purchase off in a reasonable amount of time. A lot of people on here have commended those that are responsible with their money and spending. I use a credit card, though not often, but I pay it off immediately. Debt, to me, is spending money you don't have.

I think the problem is the influence on the younger less experienced users that do fall prey to the desire for immediate satisfaction. The more they are encouraged to save and to enjoy the benefits of that the better. No one here is telling anyone that they can't spend their money on how they want. Seeing as this is a doll community for people who love and purchase dolls I think the reaction is more out of concern for those that might feel pressured to buy now and pay later and unfortunately suffer consequences because of that.

I have been concerned when I've seen people suggest not eating lunch and saving that towards dolls money, and have been concerned when I've seen people maxing out multiple cards and admitting honestly that they really shouldn't be spending that much. It doesn't mean these people shouldn't have dolls, nor do I think I have the right to tell anyone to not spend money in how they choose, but I am allowed to feel concern for someone's financial well-being.

There are also circumstances beyond people's control, such as medical costs and other life emergencies, those are just unfortunate. As for the difference in investment between a house and a car and a doll? As much as I love dolls, they are a luxury hobby and while they do hold some value as art objects, there isn't really the same amount of equity in a doll as in a house. People who are financially secure enough to invest in a car or a house aren't really the people that are at concern, it's those that have other financial issues and those too young to even consider mortgages because they are only starting to face student loans.

I don't think anyone was trying to make anyone feel bad about spending money. I understand that for a lot of people, even the financially secure, that the costs of these dolls is enormous and no one should have to feel more guilt at dropping money on this hobby. What I believe this debate was hoping to do was to ask why there is pressure on some to spend money so quickly rather than saving, and whether or not aspects of the hobby lead to this pressure or whether or not the pressures are more societal/cultural.

 

Arguably, any use of credit (as outlined in the original statement, money you do not have) fuels the culture of debt. Without the ability to borrow or buy with credit, there would be no debt. People could not buy things they do not have the money for at the time.

I don't believe the BJD market, or the auto industry, or any other producer of expensive goods, is at fault. The culture sprung from the growing mindset that buying things you don't have the money for is okay, which is a relatively new concept. We learn this mindset from those around us, our parents, the media, etc. We are told we need nice things to appear successful, and we deserve nice things because we work hard. We think we deserve them so much in this land of perceived abundance that we don't feel we should even have to save money for these things. We should be able to have them right now, and worry about paying for them later.

There is also the idea that certain types of debt are okay (putting large purchases of "necessary" items like cars, home appliances, furniture on the credit card, renting to own, borrowing from the bank). There is no question that there is a business in loaning and credit because most people end up not paying it off on time, and end up paying a lot more for things than if they simply saved up for them.

We have the choice to not use credit for frivolous purchases, or at all. That is personal responsibility, which is inherently required to preserve individual liberty. Blaming the "culture" for your debt, alcoholism, terrible job, overeating, or any other problem in your life is a way of saying someone should be in place to stop this from happening to you. I don't think that is the point of this discussion, though. I don't so much believe that the BJD market is feeding the culture of debt. The culture of debt is feeding the BJD market. Because so many are willing to go into debt for these dolls, there is a lot of money to be made selling them. It's not the dollmakers' responsibility to keep you from using your card. Until there is widespread denouncement of the use of credit there will be fewer people saving and more people buying things outside their means, including these dolls.

I'm proud to say I've never had a credit card, never will, and have never bought a doll I did not have money for in the bank. I think it is very sad that apparently a lot of people do buy their dolls on credit and go into terrible debt over it. I'm amazed that some even say that it is not possible to live without debt in today's world. I could never enjoy any item, expensive ones especially, that I knew I could not afford at the moment and would be making payments on. I urge those who are troubled by the culture of debt to not be a part of it any longer, no matter how difficult that may be, even if you have to sell some dolls to get out of it. I also think those who aren't troubled by it should not cry in the forums about how hurt their wallet is now that they "had" to buy certain dolls or items, because that truly does fuel the idea that debt is okay, even comical.

 

In a way, BJDs to especially perpetuate credit and debt. With so many limited dolls, there is a constant mentality of 'I must buy this now now now or I will never be able to get it later!' Panicking, people put it on their credit cards because it's the only one they can purchase the doll right at that point. And honestly, you can't really blame people for not wanting to miss out on the things that they want. It's not easy to give up and let something slip through your fingers when you have the means to get it, even if the only means is credit. With most other items, like TVs and cars, they're going to be there later. But with dolls, you have a month, a week, mere minutes or seconds to be able to make your purchase. So yes, I do believe that dolls might make someone whip out their credit card where they otherwise might not.

But it's also ENORMOUSLY the person as well. It's absolutely fine to use a credit card when you know you can make it back immediately, or at least very shortly. As long as you're responsible and make your payments in full and on time, there's not much of an issue. But when people buy doll after doll on credit and don't have a job and don't make their payments and wrack up interest and debt -- THAT'S when you have a problem. And that's not the fault of dolls, that's people. Credit cards themselves aren't the issue -- it's responsibility.

 

I have no words. (actually, I lie...)

I consider myself in trouble when I have even 1/5th of that on my card, and I'm speaking as a person with a full time job, and a paid off mortgage.

And to chip in something more directly related to the topic, I consider any balance on a credit card to be debt. If I have a balance, I am in credit card debt until it is paid. Even if I have the money in my bank account to pay it off immediately, it is a debt owed until the credit card company receives that money from me.

To me, the word "credit" is nothing more than a euphemism for "debt".

 

Nice quote. This irkes me, but it's not surprising. That's like saying being homeless for a few months builds character. It only causes stress and keeps you from building wealth.

I've had people tell me to get a credit card to "build credit." You don't need credit if you plan on being responsible with your money. Another favorite is the car dealerships that say they'll finance you with bad credit. Of course they will. They want you to owe them money so they can repo the car you can't pay for and sell it to someone else! I'm just glad the concept of leasing dolls has never developed! I'm sure there are people that would do that.

 

I still reckon, no doubt we all have our love of a limited doll. But is it important enough to reduce to debt? I've seen people save up long and hard for a doll and when they receive it they feel like they've achieved something. Right now i'm saving for Cain. I'm spending extra hours of work so i don't need to cram my lifestyle even if i'm buying a $700+ doll.

I don't know, although i'm against. I find the mine-set of some indiviuals of needed to own each one of them ridiculous. Maybe it's me. But somethings we should be satisfied. If someone told me you can have one doll and one doll only. I'll be absolutely content with Rae. If two then Rae and Cain and i'll be as happy as can be.

I don't like credicts as it influences ppl's spending. My friend was saying, paying on credict is gr8, u pay like $20 a month for something expensive. There are necessities we need to be in debt for, like my university fees. My parents have the money for my Uni fees but it would become a burden for them. So i lent a huge amount of money that i will receive in 4 months time. I don't like it but i need to.

No way do we NEED dolls. At the end of the day, they'r hobbies, we don't die if we don't have the newest must have. I've seen some ppl like that. If they enjoy their hobby that way then i'm fine with that. I like to enjoy my hobby with hard work and satisfaction also knowing i don't owe a bank some money. Then i can look at the boys and think 'they're mine and i earned them'

 

Somewhat -
When I got into bjds I became sort of obssesed with it. I did not buy all at once but my collection started to grow alot buying lati, dollshe, custom house, luts, volks bjds etc. etc If I have money I reserve it for bjds. I did not go into debt but if I continue on like this eventually I will be. I have to step back and focus on what I really want. Now I am happy with 11 in total. I have one bjd I really like to add into my collection but I will wait and not in a hurry to spend my money like before. There is lots of things other than bjds in my life and I can not focus all in bjds so this helps me control my urge to buy every single bjds I like.

Basically self control and focusing alot will help control how you spend your money. Debt can be fueled by bjds, bags, shoes, clothing, gambling etc etc.

 

Against

People should learn to save. It teaches them the value of a dollar, and it teaches them to value what they buy, instead of buying lots of meaningless crap. When you have to wait to get something, it becomes a lot more meaningful then something you buy on a whim.

However, some things are near impossible to buy without credit of some kind - houses for instance. Cars can be if someone has a great job, but otherwise, you'll need credit for things like that.

BJDs aren't really expensive enough to warrent a credit card though, saving is best.

 

Well, if you ever need to get a loan for some reason, then you do need credit. Having good credit will make it easier to get loans at lower interest rates, and there are some things that most people do need to take out loans for (cars, homes, education etc), since the amount of cash needed is generally much higher than what people have in their accounts at the time. Though racking up large amounts of debt on a credit card can do a great deal of harm to a person's credit if it gets out of control--and with bjds, that's really the issue. Not weather people use their credit cards, but weather or not they're biting off more than they chew and that isn't the dolls' or doll companies' faults.

 

OK, this is getting a bit off topic, but it is actually a good idea to build up some credit, since if you have no credit at all it may be hard to get something like a home loan (no matter how responsibly you live, it's unlikely you'll ever have the money in your bank account to buy a house). Some landlords don't even like to rent to people who have no credit. Same thing with getting a non-prepaid cell phone- a friend of mine was turned down by a couple of cell phone companies because she had no credit (this was a few years ago, mind).

While it's not wise to live in debt or use a credit card for everything you buy, it can be quite difficult to go through life without using credit at all, and at times you may come across emergency situations where you need a credit card- buying emergency airline tickets when you haven't had a chance to set the cash aside in advance, for example, or being able to pay for a prescription, or any number of important expenses that pop up suddenly. I don't think dolls usually count in this category , but it is good to be able to pay for something that pops up like that.

 

For -
It is solely the responsibility of the buyer to make their payments. Credit is based on someone's ability to pay. There is nothing wrong with buying then paying back later, that's why credit cards exist. I usually charge first then pay off, just because I want to build my credit. But I may not have the money to pay it off first. But I definitely have a stable income that I know I would eventually pay off in time. But this is one of things that really depends on the individual.

 

Against.

People who are likely to overspend on a doll are just as likely to overspend on something else. Being unable to manage one's finances has nothing to do with owning BJDs. Personally, I have never owned a credit card (and trust me, I'm definitely old enough that that's really odd), because I don't see a need to be able to spend more money than I actually have. If I can't afford it, I can't afford it, plain and simple. Yes, that means I have little to no credit. I have financial references (landlords, etc), but no real credit. Unfortunately, I may have to get a credit card for that sole purpose, which seems odd to me. Though I have paid off everything that I have ever bought in full, apparently I am less financially trustworthy than some of my friends who continuously pay their minimum, but are still $10,000 in debt. Seems a bit ludicrous.

I actually blame a lack of education regarding finance management. I think people are getting credit cards at a younger and younger age as time goes by, with little knowledge of how to properly manage their finances, balance their checkbooks, or plan a budget. I think finance management should be taught in high school, personally. It would have done me a lot of good to realize how much money I was really going to be spending once I left home... I might have saved more of that expendable high-school part-time job income. >_<