Debate format: Culture of Debt

Against
I agree with fin5iver, I think it is the pressure of how others will perceive someone that compells that individual to 'need' things that are outside of their means. So whether it is someone's brand new Mecha Angel or the next door neighbor's brand new corvette, no one likes to feel inferior. And that goes for the people who can and cannot budget properly.

 

I guess what I meant to say is you don't need a credit card to build credit. My husband and I are building our first house, and we have excellent credit because the only debt we had was his student loan. This is just one way you can build credit without a card. Another is to take out a small personal bank loan, then pay it off immediately, which is much easier. Neither of us have ever had credit cards and we aren't struggling. A home and college are the few things that most people cannot outright pay for dispite careful planning, and you don't need a card to get those either. The lender for a home loan cares a lot more about how much you have saved than how many credit cards you have had.

Many other people have mentioned here that a medical emergency is something that should go on the credit card. When you are injured and may not be able to work for a while, you are in the worst position to rack up debt. Again, financial planning gurus would tell you to have insurance and have at least three months of funds saved for such a time. It's all about planning and getting ready for such circumstances. You can't do that if you're regularly living hand-to-mouth (or hand-to-Visa) making payments on things you didn't need.

The card issue is inextricably connected to the culture of debt because the cards are so accepted and make it so easy to spend more than you can afford to pay off. Not many people take out small loans anymore for things they have to have. They just charge it, along with the things they bought just for the fun of it. Again and again I will say it's about personal responsibility, and those who think they cannot live without their cards and dolls and the nicest car they can finance are setting themselves up for ruin. It's sad that the mindset that it's "normal" is so prevalent, but, hey, that's their choice.

 

Actually, I know I was one of the people that brought up medical issues as sources of debt, but not in relation to credit cards though I see how that could be misconstrued, I was merely suggesting that there are debts that are beyond one's control at times. This was more a reaction to people I've seen in the doll community, and other hobbies, either being struck with illness or, god forbid, being struck by a semi-truck and the fees that followed. Insurance can cover only so much and medical bills are one of the number one causes of debt in the US.

As other's have said, a credit card can be a tool. If you view it in the same manner as a checkbook or a debit card and plan to pay the balance each month it's extremely beneficial to some that are looking for some source of credit to help them when it comes to making a small car loan or even renting an apartment. I despise the abuse of credit cards and the notion of building credit through debt, but because I never spend anymore on a credit card than I would through a debit card than to me it isn't the same kind of debt. It will get paid as soon as I can pay it.

I do respect your opinion though because it is nice to be able to live without dealing with credit card hassles. When companies are now legally able to pay over 30% interest on late fees it is frightening and infuriating. However, as someone who has no student loans or other bank loans the credit on a card can help with car financing and apartment rentals and other small steps that also help build credit.

*edit* As well, credit cards, when used responsibly, can also act as an extra layer of consumer protection. While there are identity theft issues, which happen even with checks and debit cards, if there is a dispute over a product or a charge you can go through the credit card company to help you with your claim so you won't be completely out of luck. This is why a lot of companies prefer that you use credit cards over other means of payment because they are more secure.

But I have to add, I don't see why people think that credit cards and debt are not only interchangable terms, but that other forms of bad debt aren't really being looked upon which is simply living beyond one's means. You don't need a credit card to do that.

 

not both; either or.

I say these two lifestyles are mutually exclusive when it comes to each individual; not the hobby.

You sometimes see real champ savers; holing out for their one precious doll... some kids even, saving up allowances for YEARS... and god do I have mad respect for that.

And then there are those like me, for whom their paypal credit line is a bit too tempting... from time to time.

no one seems to be in the middle, or balanced though, in the hobby. its sorta like artichokes. No one "sorta likes" artichokes or "doesnt mind" artichokes. Either you love them, or you'll pass. KnowhatImean?

 

Hehe. I have to save because I don't have cc/paypal.
But its part of the fun for me.

I have missed out on some limiteds that I liked though ;_;
But my policy has always been - only buy it if you can pay for it. Even if/when I do get a cc, thats what I'll do: have the money in hand before buying.

If its a really limited thing though, I might break the rule xD

 

Oh I think a lot of people are, you just don't hear about it because it's not exciting. Someone may post "I had a few hundred extra bucks in the bank so I thought I'd buy another doll", but if you see a sig for months with someone's savings ticking away or see them mention it in posts here and there, it sticks in your mind more. Same with being in debt- anytime a new doll is posted there'll probably be a "if only I hadn't maxed out my card" comment, and in the marketplace you see it as well. But people who just buy dolls within their means.... well that's pretty boring and unmemorable, isn't it?

 

true. still never seen anyone half-like artichokes, though.

 

My bank account is overdrawn semi-permanently, due to the irregularity of my income as a student. I purposefully keep my credit limit very low because of that.

My doll money comes from extraneous income that I cannot get to my bank account to help with the essentials. Unlike a lot of people here, I cannot link my bank account and paypal, so basically, anything I sell online goes to finance other luxury purchases, online. This said, I did save for about 10 months before I got my first doll, about 10 more months before I got my second doll's head, and just now, a year and a half later, am getting her body.

The situation is way too complex to have a clear cut yes/no answer. It depends a lot on the individual, it also depends on the possibilities available to them, and of course, the culture. BJDs as an object are not responsible for debt. You never really need that doll. It's people convincing themselves of that need, or their deserving. Other people around them encouraging that behaviour...

The dolls won't put me into debt, because it's money I would never see anyway.

 

Thankfully, I do not feel the need, nor am I compelled by new doll releases, to own more than a couple dolls. Right now I have two, and I made sure that when I bought those, I still had money left over to live off of.

I like having money to spend on what I like and want. And although I like and want dolls, I know that real life comes first. I have a car payment, insurance payments, and gas prices are outrageous. So right now, buying dolls is not a priority.

I know my priorities, even though some people think I don't.

 

Against:

I only buy with Money Transfer. I do not use credit card nor companies that encourage only credit card payments. Debt can be avoided if approached in the right fashion and with restraint. It is possible to over spend on any item hobby. The BJD community has got so big no one person can have every doll, so people learn to be more responsible with what they want.

 

Against

Doll collecting is no more a hobby of debt, than any other hobby. I just ordered my second doll today. I have also purchased alot of clothes, wigs, eyes, msc, paints, etc. I have not charged anything not even a wig. In fact, I go a step further. I'm 26 and graduated college last fall but I still don't have a job in my field. I work retail which sure the heck isnt going to support a hobby like this. I have never spent one single cent of my paycheck from my work income on anything for a doll. Instead I do art commissions, sell old items I no longer need, sell virtual currency on online games (only when the terms of service allow) etc. I suppose I could have put this money to better things, to supplement my meager income. But the fact is that my doll funds do not come from my credit cards nor from my paychecks. They're a luxury item and paying off student loans, electricity, food, rent, gas money, etc all comes first. I am sure there are many of people who quickly go thousands of dollars into debt over the dolls, but that's true of any hobby. There will always be those who are irresponsible with their finances.

 

I would like to give my opinion o this since I am a shopoholic. If you rack up debt on dolls, you probably rack it up on anything and everything. Buying the thing you "need" or "want" gives you a feeling of satisfaction and happiness, for a while, then you want to buy something else to be happy again. Not that I am a pschyo or anything I just have an issue with shopping. I think with the hobby of BJD's you end up with a single transaction costing more than say buying shoes or clothes.
I recently consolidated my debt from being laid off for a summer and spending all my savings on rent, car ins, bills etc etc. Then the only job I could find I had to take a paycut.
So for me to buy a doll I have to set money aside each month until I have enough.
So I don't think it is just dolls fueling debt, it is individual people and their spending habits.
This is my first debate post, I believe it adheres to the rules I read

 

I'm 26, graduating from college hopefully in the Fall, and am pretty much self-employed (small Ebay business), so my lifestyle is not one that does great in this area However, I never spend that kind of money in one go - it's impossible - so I save, which could mean selling old clothes, purses, books, etc. and doing webdesign, or using profit from Ebay. Or I put the doll on layaway, which works better for me.

I think with anything a person can get into trouble with money. My sister spends a TON on designer clothes, and frankly it worries us because of how much.

 

In a nutshell, supporting a habit like this is irresponsible solely on credit cards used for "dolly emergencies". Will your livelihood really depreciate that much due to not owning a certain doll? If credit is used responsibly, which is very seldom in American culture (look at our deficit x.x, then there is no problem with it. Therefore, the current trend of 'bad credit' is what influences the majority of my comments:

Though it may be nice to have an LE and is an excellent luxury, it seems senseless to me to ruin my credit that entitles my future *non-doll* family to, not just a simple luxury, but things that are needed in life. Those of us who are students: If we were to ruin our credit now, how would we be able to finance a car, let alone a home loan? Would diapers for future children take the back seat to fancy, frilly <insert rare clothing item here> for our new <insert LE doll here>? I would hope the answer is no.

I don't support the whole buying-the-'popular'-doll frenzy that often fuels this must-have credit card culture. The beauty of BJDs lies in the way you can customize them. There is no reason to buy a certain doll when it costs $2000 just because it is O.O.A.K, etc. etc...Anyone can make a one of a kind doll if they just customize that which is affordable. It might not be the same quality, but there is really no greater way to bond with a doll than to be its creator.

Though dolls are near and dear to our hearts, how nice will you be able to keep your LE-Awesome-Must-Have-Doll once you're living in a car, or on the streets, unable to pay for your own livelihood? Dangerous, addictive habits are just that...dangerous and addictive. The key is to be smart and know our limits; Only then can we enjoy a less stressful life with our beautiful dolls.

 

I can't say I know enough about dolls to be set either way, but I see a lot of similarities between the "doll community" and other groups where debt is a big problem. I have friends who are or have been into other collectibles, and while it's unfair to say these things by nature are responsible for a culture of debt, it's naive to say they don't encourage it.

How many people into expensive hobbies such as collectibles, or pricey fashion actually buy things for their own happiness, and not to please other collectors, or a faceless community on the internet? I've seen it in things as benign as collectable toys, and as abstract as animal breeding and MMORPGs. People spend the cash to feel admired, and it sometimes ends in pain and debt. They feel the need to "keep up", and when the hobby is very expensive, it leads to poor money decisions. A friend of mine from college put himself very deep into debt buying designer clothes, and he still intends on buying more... He doesn't want to lose face; he feeds off of the attention.

But I don't think dolls and other items cause this as much as the cycles of giving and desiring attention that owners feed in to. These people exist in many circles, and the desire to live through the attention they receive is sadly very widespread and dangerous.

 

As someone who is fairly new to this hobby here's my two cents:

I know some doll owners who are very irresponsible with their money, I know other doll owners who are not. I don't think it's a doll community problem - I think it's a people problem.

Some people are irresponsible with their money - it's not the "doll's fault" it's the person's fault whether because they are impulsive or just don't have their priorities straight. As far as I've seen that doll collectors are way more responsible then people who collect cars, houses, women, computer games, etc.

That's my small input anyway

 

I like half of the artichoke... (the heart not so much the leaves).

And likewise I can't say I never put a doll on a credit card, but I work very hard to only buy a doll with 'liquid' money (ie not card). I may put a vacation on a card (with personal justifications I won't go into here) but it's very important to me only to buy a doll with money that I actually HAVE. Now, I will do all manner of financial wrangling ('borrowing' from savings, etc.) to make sure I have enough but it's rare indeed when I actually put a doll on a card, and even then it's one that will get paid off in a month or two.

H

 

I also have to wonder about how dolls (and other expensive collectibles) are effecting our very view of money.

Over the past few years it feels like this hobby has moved from generally older collectors to younger hobbiests. While I don't want to generalize too much, older people are more likely to have a steady income and (one would hope) more disposable income.

If younger collectors come in then won't they feel pressure to rely more on credit simply out of circumstance?

When I first got into this hobby I looked at the 60cm BJDs and went "no way, too expensive" and I bought a few minis (that turned out didn't suit me). When I started buying larger dolls I felt that the money I spent was somehow.... devalued. Spending 500 dollars on a doll no longer felt outrageous. (I make minis sound like a gateway drug.)

I don't know if other people who have bought multiple dolls have felt this effect too... that a dollar, in a way, isn't worth a dollar anymore.

I'm in no financial trouble, and I don't buy on credit, but I feel like this attitude is as dangerous as buying on credit because it's being dissociated from real values of things that contributes to attitudes of irresponsiblity later.

By looking at these dolls and deciding that 500 dollars isn't a lot of money then it's all to easy to use that credit card because it's there.

It's late and I'm possibly not making sense, but that's my take on it.

 

I agree with vermaxen on how after a while one might just be desanitized the value of money in the sense how many had claimed that once you buy your first doll it's much easier to buy the next.

I don't think it's the culture but rather more what the technologies of this era has made convinent. Some of you may have heard of the term "liquid money" and this is all that it is. Alot of people don't feel the money and by paying things by card (cc/debit) there's a break of what's being taken and that's pretty much leads to the desanitation of the money that has been used/borrowed etc.

Now obviously I can overthrow my argument by stating that money is just numbers, but, of the higher societies, it has been enforced strongly about monetary value of items so in essence we'll continue to pretend that it's 'real value'.

 

For

It's probably been said, but I find ABJD companies do fuel this problem by doing limited/art/special doll runs. I'm sure to know when a new doll/outfit is coming out because DOA becomes all a buzz with 'OMG, I must have this new doll'. Which is sometimes nice because some of them are gorgeous. But if your on a limited income (aka student like me) what are the chances you have a couple of thousand of dollars in reserve? I feel there is a lot of pressure in the community and by companies to own the more expensive dolls right away. Though I have to say I agree that it depends on the individual in the end; on whether or not they can resist the urge.