Debate format: Culture of Debt

Being an adult and having steady income, I can't awnser for the younger set. However, I find myself more willing to use a credit card now that I have the income than when I was younger. Because I have a steady job, I can make my credit card payments which I wouldn't be able to do without the job. I don't like to take on more bills if I don't have the income to back it up.

 

I think its pretty simple.

If you don't have the money to get it, most likely you shouldn't get it.

I understand if its REQUIRED to buy something such as food or others, and use your credit card. But thats assuming you would be paying it off shortly.

Now when it comes to bjds which are luxury items, being put back 600+ dollars on a credit card, thats their own fault. If they can manage to pay it off thats great. But there will always be the people who CAN'T pay it off, and end up with credit debt more than they can handle.

 

I have no credit card. I buy nothing I do not have the money for. I have never put myself into credit or debt (except my HECS debt for my uni degree, I'd never ask my parents to put me through it).

I'm against buying dolls on credit. Save. It's a lot cheaper in the long run, all that interest you pay is an outfit, a pair of shoes or, depending on how brutal your interest rates are, a whole new doll.

 

I think you made a lot of sense in your post, Vermaxen.

I've been reading this thread with much interest for a while now. I'm not entirely sure what side I take on this debate, as I can see good points on both sides.

I do think, however, that communities devoted to any hobby do certainly encourage members to spend money. The temptation to buy the newest and best item is always there, as people share their excitement and their photos. With the practice of spending large amounts of money so accepted and even expected in a hobby such as doll collecting, it's difficult not to get swept up in it just to feel like you belong to the community.

Back to Vermaxen's point above, I think that's very true. We (at least in the US) are living in an economical environment that's continually moving towards 'virtual' money. If I have a wad of $100 bills and plunk them down on the counter of some store in the mall, it feels a whole lot more real to me than if I type in my credit card number on a website and see several hundred dollars go to it. With that kind of perspective, it's really easy to just charge large amounts and it can get out of hand very quickly.

So, I guess I do agree that ABJDs do contribute to a culture of debt, but no more so than any other hobby. It's up to each individual to know their limits. In the end, the important thing is that your hobbies increase the enjoyment of your life. Accumulating too much debt, though, would definitely detract from that enjoyment. As long as there's responsible enjoyment being had, then I see no harm in spending money on one's hobbies.

 

I don't think that doll ownership in itself causes people to be in debt but that due to them often being a highly desireable, sometimes limited and often expensive hobby it may cause some people to over extend themselves. I think that people who get themselves in trouble with their finances would probably do so with something else if it was not with BJD's but that at least if they shop wisely they have a good investment that will not depreciate quickly if they have to sell them, unlike say a car or someting....

 

For, unfortunately...

I think with all the Limited Editions, and free event heads it's oh so tempting to reach a little deeper into your pockets than you should.
You can't blame the companies for wanting to make a living though. But most of the people who want/own dolls are fairly young and therefore rather impressionable, acting more upon their emotions ("But I LOVE that new Luts NaNuRi head so much!") than on their rationality, I think.

 

Against.

I do not believe that the ABJD's are such a big market to really further an already ingrained Culture of Debt.

Credit is Big business. I think if we were to look deeper and actually wanted to do something about reversing the trend as some analysts predict dire times ahead due to spending money we don't have...we would encourage sustained growth. Pressure our governments to stop credit being used for daily consumables such as food and gas. When we use credit we are borrowing from our future.

Thinking upon this further...I think ABJD's actually may help to reverse impulse spending due to the fact it still requires patience on the part of the consumer to wait for a doll to be produced than to go to a local department store and buy a ready made product.

Interesting topic.

 

I'm not sure if I am for or against it, because I believe whether a BJD causes you to go into any kind of debt depends on the person spending their money. I know I do not have a steady job (College, yay) and I am saving up for injectable hormones for gender reassignment, but I have thought about my financial situation and decided that if I stuff all of my money into a savings account, I will go insane from never having anything new in my life. I allow myself small things (my first doll was about $300 with clothes added in, a small-ish price for a 60cm) and I will allow myself to splurge if I work HARD for the money I get and put half of the money away into my man fund. x3

Basically I guess it really depends on the person. It's nice to have the self-control never to spend money, but I personally can't do that so I allow myself rewards based on the amount of work I had to do to get the money. I am not a fan of debt in any way, so I would not use a credit card on a doll unless I had the funds to back it up, and only used the credit card to assist my credit score. If you don't already have the money I say you shouldn't buy a doll. Patience is a virtue, and really makes the end result so much more worthwhile. x3 And I am sure you'll like your doll a lot more if he/she doesn't make you go bankrupt. XD

 

I have comments for both sides of this:

For:
I can see how people would use their credit cards in order to get dolls faster, as it can be very addicting. But I find that people who go into debt with things like this also tend to do it with everything else, or a lot of other things anyways. I could never imagine putting myself into debt for a doll, especially if I needed things like food/clothing. I know people who have put themselves into debt with other things, because once they've racked up $600 on their credit card, and see they only have to pay $20 a month, they do that and pay the minimum, not realizing the interest they'll end up with. I think, especially with the price of the dolls, and clothing costing more for them than for myself, its easy to get into debt with this hobby.

Against:
I personally use my credit to get dolls, but only if I know I can pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not going to spend $600 on a doll if I know I can't pay it off within a month or two. I also use layaway to purchase things if I don't want to lose them (like marketplace sales and such), but as long as I know I will have the money to pay it off in the timeframe given to me.

 

I am against this statement, mostly for the same reasons that have already been quoted; ie: It's not just dolls, it's everything/ it depends on the person/ it's the media's fault/ etc. etc...

Although I am a total newbie to BJDs, I am not a newbie to expensive things. I have my own business (started in January), and I don't have a single credit card to my name, business or otherwise. As a self-employed chainmailler looking to make her way in the world, I need to budget for show fees, advertising, a tent, travel costs, food, insurance, costumes (you can't vend at a Ren Faire without them), displays, and of course, supplies! It can get really expensive! (sterling silver, anyone?)
I think it really does depend on the individual. I can get by without credit cards because I know how to save, and in the end it all comes down to discipline and the ability to say "No." Often people who are willing to go into serious debt for an expensive hobby like BJDs are the same people who would buy the latest fashions, drive expensive cars, eat at trendy places, etc. People with this mindset of instant gratification don't just use it in conjunction with their hobbies - It's how they live their lives, and it takes a lot for them to "reprogram" or "unlearn" these patterns. It'll often take some sort of disaster like a medical emergency they're not prepared to pay for, for them to realize that they don't have to "Keep up with the Joneses". These behaviours can be influenced by the media and although I watched just as much TV as a child as the next person, any whining on my part for an expensive toy was met with a firm, "No. You have plenty of toys." I thought my mom was being mean back then, but now I thank her for that because the voice in my head that says, "You don't need that now" is hers, and it's saved me many times. I have friends who got everything they wanted as children, it seemed, and now that they're adults they've dug themselves into a hole with their credit cards and come to me for advice on how to get out.
If anything, I think expensive hobbies (or businesses) can help teach people how to save money. I remember beeing a teenager and REALLY wanting a PC game that cost $50. So, I baby-sat and mowed lawns until I had enough. Today, I use percentages of my business profits for "Fun Money" and allocate that into envelopes or old glass jars (with lids glued on so I can't get to the money - I cut a slot in the top) that are labeled with a running total and the goal amount.
So no, I don't think that BJDs contribute to the problem of "debt culture". If anything, from the bit of wandering I've been able to do around the forum today, I see a lot of people on here asking for advice on how to save up money or make a budget! ^_^ It makes me glad. Hopefully any advice they get here will spill over into other areas of their lives, if they need it.
And let's not forget - In some cases, limited edition or custom dolls could be considered investments, like jewelry or an antique, that could get more valuable over time if it's cared for properly.

 

Against


I think no one is 'forced' to live beyond their means. It's a conscious choice that the person makes. Even if they are 'not good' at budgeting, they should be able to determine whether or not the purchase of an expensive item like a doll will effect their ability to stay within their means. I personally think that people use rising prices today as an excuse to buy whatever they want weather they could afford it or not. It's very simple in my eyes, save your money, and if you do stow away enough for a doll or a car or whatever, even that does not mean you can afford it. You need to have more then that because once you purchase whatever it is you still need to be able to afford your basic needs, and I think you should ALWAYS have something set aside just incase, because you never know what can happen.

In this light buying on credit is silly. It’s just something that seems to have been invented by banks to make money. It’s not a necessary thing in any way shape or form.

 

I don't blame the dolls, I blame society and governments of the world. It's our fault, our parents fault, thier parents fault. If you buy into it. I for one, didn't buy a doll until I knew for sure that I had the money.

 

I don't think it's just dolls...

I am against buying dolls (almost anything) on credit. Been there, done that.

Layaway is different. Do layaway and you are reversing the process paying what you can without interest charges, and the doll won't break your budget. Then the doll is your reward for not succumbing to an impulse purchase or dolly lust. You are also building a relationship with the vendor so that they will be happy to do a layaway with you in the future. You may miss a doll, but it's so much better than being in debt--and really how much will you enjoy the doll when you have to make payments on it? You may feel guilty.

 

Having accrued debt that I am trying to pay off, I am now very careful with this potentially expensive hobby. I do have the impulses, MUST BUY DOLL NOW! but I've sworn to only buy doll related things ONLY when I have cash in hand. I find it more rewarding and in the end, I am ABSOLUTELY sure it wasn't an impulse buy because I saved up half a year to pay for the doll.

denkiva

 

I may be repeating things, but here's my point of view. It's not the hobby, it's the person. You just have to have the right point of view. I feel like anyone who would do that to a BJD would do it for anything else they just have 'had to have!'. I also think that impulse buys and the like are shorter lived in their excitement. So someone decides that instead of eating lunch or peying rent, they're just going to impulse buy a doll. Well, that doll probably isn't going to be exciting to them for very long. Waiting for a doll makes you really want it more. Looking at it while you save up gives you a goal and a purpose. I think that it's highly more rewarding to save up for a doll. It means more to you. Impulse buyers are always just moving on to the next thing. It's the same with clothes, shoes, purses... People just keep buying because they have to have it and then trashing it later, maybe even before they've finished paying it off. I don't think that BJD is either helping or hindering the 'culture of debt'. The culture of debt would exist whether or not the BJDs did. It's just people being irresponsible, that's all there is to it. And until people learn the value of their own money, that's the way it's going to stay. I don't think what they spend it on matters. The problem is that they spend it in the first place.

 

It depends on the choice the person makes, not the item the person purchase in this case because it is NOT a necessity.

 

I have debt. But I'm a fully graduated university student with a very good degree. Is it worth getting into debt for education? Yes. My car was written off by another driver so I'm getting a personal loan from my bank to pay for a new car (which I need in order to get to work). Is it worth getting into debt for a new car? Yes.

Is it worth getting into debt for some new clothes? New shoes? A new doll? No. These things are materialistic, they're not needed.

It all comes down to willpower. Most people don't have it.
If they can get credit for something and pay it back later, they will without even thinking about how they're going to pay it back.

Of course, if you can afford the repayments every month then sure, get credit but if you can afford the repayments why not just save the money first and *then* buy what you want?

 

For:
Limited sets make people feel they have to buy it now or they may not get another chance.

Against:
It's a mindset. If you go into debt for a BJD, you probably go into debt for many other things. For some people, charging something to a credit card doesn't make them feel like they're spending real money.

I don't know if it makes any difference these days anyway. Most graduates have student loans to pay off so young adults start their working life with massive debts. People are used to being in debt through loans and credit card borrowing throughout their lives. Banks encourage us to get into more debt all the time. We've all become flippant about it too, I know people with debts of over £20,000 who don't lose any sleep over it.

 

Like a lot of other people have said: I'm against the idea. No one is being FORCED to buy the dolls and it certainly isn't the hobbie's fault that people are going in debt for it.

The thing it comes down to is like mightmaus said-willpower. Sure, I could go get a credit card right now. Go down to the bank say "I want visa now beeotch!" and they'd give it to me. But if it's one thing I learned real quickly from my mom it's that credit cards are not money. They're temporary loans. It's not YOUR money, it's someone else's and if you use it you have to pay it back and FAST. I'm not saying that if you really need to charge something then you shouldn't because if it's life-threatening what else can you do? But my general rule for anything is: "If you don't got the money don't spend the money". I'm already 5000$ in the hole from school fees I don't need to be going to get a credit card and being another 605 bucks deeper. BJD are luxury items and even though I want to bring a resin child home very soon charging him on a credit card I'd never be able to pay off would be incredibly stupid >.>

 

When I initially read the debate prompt and the opinions given, my first thought was to say that I was against the use of credit cards and acquired debt when purchasing dolls. However, after considering various situations I have to go with the ambiguous opinion of "it depends on the situation".

Clearly, living beyond your means for any reason is unwise and damaging. In this age of mass consumption it can be difficult for many to not give in to temptation of credit cards. In some cases, however, there is nothing wrong with charging an item to credit. If you are responsible with your finances and make your payments in a timely manner you may very well be able to purchase something that would have been difficult to acquire by using funds directly from a bank account.

For instance, some individuals are better than others when it comes to saving large amounts while some react better to having a responsibility like a due credit card payment to remind them to budget properly. I can personally sympathize with people in the latter position, however, I know myself well enough to understand that a credit card in my hands would be a dangerous thing - hence I've never gotten one.

As many others have said, it isn't something confined solely within this hobby though perhaps the pressure to keep up with the impression collections of other collectors may have something to do with the irresponsible spending habits we sometimes see. I don't, however, think peer pressure and the need to fit in and be accepted are driving forces for the problem. Though, I am not saying that it doesn't influence some minds.

We have been raised in an age where there is a credit card plan for everyone, provided they are of a certain age and our society views debt as a norm and often sugar coats very dangerous financial situations with promises of financial support and consoling. With this approach to debt what else can we possibly expect but such reckless spending habits and nonchalant views on the matter?