Do you feel that you should pretend to love dolls that you don’t?

But what is the point of discussing a sculpt if people do nothing but rave about how beautiful it is? If a doll is a poor poser, has odd proportions, wonky resin, etc., I want to hear about it, as other people's experiences will inevitably affect my own purchases. We're all big kids here; we should be able to express an opinion (with tact and courtesy, of course) even if it is a negative one.

Personally, I prefer blunt honesty (even when it's rude) to sugarcoated discussions with no tolerance for difference of opinion.

 

Alright, clarification is in order. When I throw out Thumper's Rule, I'm talking about unnecessary rudeness. Discussions are vital to, um.. discussion boards, lol. Talking about the resin, and the proportions, and the posability is all good, even if it's bad (you follow?) when it's being discussed, and not attacked. Someone who has a beef with a certain brand or sculpt isn't going to add anything useful to a discussion by coming in and going "ew, I would never buy this doll because of such and such, and I think they're horrible, x y and z are so much better because they're what I like." In that case, rabbit feet should be inserted in the mouth and chewed on for a time, until the return of common courtesy returns.

I'm all about blunt honesty, but when it's not meant as a proponent of the discussion, then it's unwelcome. It's that tact and courtesy thing that gets 'em every time. I want to hear all about a doll's good and bad points, but I want to hear it from someone who's putting it out there for thought, not someone who's in on the thread just to b'aw and rag. It's all in the delivery.

 

There are one or two dolls that I find fugly. I am polite enough not to mention which so as not to offend those who think that these particular dolls are lovely.

So in that occasion I will just be nice and stfu.

Now if I have pertinent information about I doll I also own and someone is thinking of buying one and wants honest opinions on them, then I will tell them the truth on how good it is or not, but I will be nice about it. None of that "This doll Eats" crap, just "It has trouble standing" or "very nice sculpt, worth every penny" or whatever is relevant.

Phil.

 

I would never pretend to love a doll that I simply don't like aesthetically but I would avoid making comments about it here on the forum. I think that falls under the category of "don't judge, lest ye be judged" & "one person's trash is anothers treasure." I would never want to offend another doll owner. After all, I know that there'd be people here who wouldn't particularly like my dolls but I love them to bits...that should be all that matters. I'm sure it's a very good reason why there are many members who don't post up a lot of pics of their dolls.. for some of us this hobby is a very personal thing.

 

I don't see why you should. Out of a collection (3 or more of an item) you will always have favorites and ones that are not. No definitely there is no need to "pretend".

 

I think there is a big difference between an honest opinion and a negative opinion. If a comment about disliking a doll/company is constructive and based on more than personal taste, I don't have a problem with it. But simply throwing out "that doll is ugly/weird/stupid" is the line of negative comments I'm against.

 

I won't pretend that I love something I don't. However, I won't be rude about it. When I dislike something, say in a Gallery, sometimes I just don't reply at all. If the post is asking for a critique, however, I give my honest opinion in a tactful way.

There are ways of saying things, as I think previous posts have said, in a way that isn't hurtful but constructive.

 

Negative comments aren't dishonest, so there's no difference. It seems like what you're actually objecting to is your version of what you consider an honest, but "impolite" or "gratuitous" comment. As has been said on the thread before, different people have different thresholds for what they consider "impolite" or "gratuitous/ unnecessary" comments. I just think it's important to realize that while people may not say things out loud, and perhaps that makes for a more pleasant forum, it doesn't change their underlying honest opinions - just drives the thought of "that doll is ugly" underground.

I'd rather hear the truth, but then again I'm one of those people who will like a doll if I like it and not care what other people have to say except from a standpoint of casual interest in what other people in this hobby find beautiful or desirable.

 

I agree, if I like a doll I don't tend to worry about whether other people like it or not. I don't like to see very offensive posts and I don't think it's necessary to say a doll is so disgustingly ugly you don't understand why anyone would want one, but if you genuinely dislike certain dolls you should be allowed to say why.

 

I wonder if it is time to go back to some good old fashioned manners when it comes to critiquing other people's dolls? Yeah, there are dolls that I think are really seriously fugly, but I don't consider it polite to say so if someone posts up pics of a doll I don't like.

What matters is that they like it, which is why they bought it after all. To make disparaging comments about a doll in that manner is extremely rude.

You can post what the heck you like about a certain sculpt on your own blog (and yes, I do that myself, but it is MY blog and you don't have to read it), but when it comes to someone else's photo shoot of their doll that they spent time and money and energy getting and clothing and then photographing in artistic settings, casting such aspersions around about it is just plain rude.

/rant over.

Phil.

 

If it's in regards to dolls that people own... No matter how much I hate or I think the doll is ugly, I'll just keep quiet and not post at all in that thread rather than to voice out my opinions and cause some tension with people I don't even know. I would expect people to respect my kids too. =)

If it's about a particular sculpt, I might voice out because that's what discussions are for.

If it's about the body's posability, I'll definitely voice out because that's what people needs to know.

 

We love you too, Phil.

Personally, I prefer honesty... even brutal honesty... to false, candy-coated compliments or dead silence. Even when someone's opinions don't match what you want to hear, there's no harm in having them out there for consideration. There's nothing wrong with disagreement, with admitting that people have different tastes or even with flat-out saying "You know, I really don't like that."

It's not a sin to have preferences OR to make those preferences known.

 

I think a lot of it comes down to cultural difference.

Some cultures value "direct, honest" communication. If you don't tell someone how you really feel, you don't care about them.
Other cultures value "preserving the relationship" over being too outspoken. If you are directly critical to someone, you don't care about them.

Example, someone asks: Should I use the pen or the marker? (The pen is black, the marker is red)

A person who is from a culture who values directness will say "Use the pen". A person who is used to indirect communication might say "in this case you need something thin and refined, so I'd say use the black one". That second sentence can cause people to accuse the person saying it of "beating around the bush" or "being unclear or avoiding answering the question" to those who value direct communication. To those who value indirect conversation "use the pen" is rude.

It's something important to keep in mind in any international forum - indirect talk may not mean someone is avoiding the question. Direct talk may not mean the person is trying to be rude. Cultural Differences are the #1 barrier to communication.

 

Thank you, Brightfires and QFE. The problem I have with the 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' phrase is that it is so often used to force people to sugarcoat things.
I hate it when people smile through their teeth and make shallow, dishonest but oh, so 'polite' remarks. To me it isn't even polite to act this way. It's disrespectful (because flat-out lying to someone is treating him/her like a moron), it's hypocritical and dishonest.
Giving critique and stating a dislike is not automatically impolite. The only way gets disrespectful is when strong, hurtful words are used. (btw: 'I don't like the jointing of this doll' is not a hurtful remark)

I'd rather have someone flat out tell me in my face what they think is wrong with my dolls than that I have to hear it behind my back. At least, when they have the guts to speak to me directly, it gets out in the open and there is a chance to talk about it. Possible negativity doesn't have a chance to fester or grow this way.

Btw... I'm not talking about hijacking a gallery-thread so you (general) can get it of your chest how much that doll sucks... that is just bad form. But when someone asks you for your opinion it shouldn't be a major offence to tell the truth (gently). Same goes for participating in a discussion in the Ball Jointed Doll discussion subforum.

EDIT: @Kiyono - The Dutch are definitely the direct and honest type of people, but that doesn't mean we don't try to preserve the relationship. On the contrary even. It's just... when someone is beating around the bush it feels like talking to a salesperson who wants something from you but doesn't give a @$%*! about who you are.

 

Well, despite what it may "force" people into doing (noting that nobody can force you to do anything, since free agency is in play), its intention is to promote common courtesy. Which, in fact, is becoming less and less common. (Surely that can have nothing to do with the fact things like Thumper's Rule are slandered as jaded and misanthropic.. )

I'm all for honesty. Polite honesty is what crops up in most cases. If you don't like a doll, but you're happy for someone because they've finally claimed their prize, then it's not impolite or dishonest to say "congratulations!" or "I'm so happy for you!" Honesty and politeness really have nothing to do with one another (they should go together, but they're not dependent on one another). The issue isn't honesty, it's courtesy.

Absolultely! Again, it's not so much about what we say, it's how we say it. If you have an issue with something... "god, that faceup makes me want to claw my eyes out!!" is a lot less tactful than "I've seen better. The lips are pretty clumpy, and the eyeshadow isn't even". Both are true. Both are opinions. One is unnecessarily rude. It's not impolite to keep your inner drama-llama in check by using a filter between your brain and your mouth (or your fingers, as it were).

If everyone could express their opinion and do so in both an honest and polite way, then there wouldn't even be cause for this discussion. Unfortunantly, it's less the honesty and more the politeness that seems to wane when someone's opinions come into play.

 

Thank you SandKitten for expressing your point so eloquently. If people feel they are "forced" to lie or sugar-coat comments going off that old motto, then that's really all in their head . You can tell me something you don't like about one of my dolls or a suggestion on how to improve my technique on something and still be nice about it. It is possible. You don't even have to try to find something you do like in order to 'even' your comment out if there is genuinly nothing about my dolls you like. But it's not difficult to give your critique or whathaveyou in a nice and polite manner. I'll be more willing to actually listen to your words and maybe put them to use and improve my work which is probably what you want anyway rather than me blowing you off as a complete jerk to continue spamming the world with my ugly dolls

 

The problem being, in the atmosphere cultivated on DoA, that your second example would be viewed as negative and insulting by a large chunk of people. Too many times a simple "I don't like that sculpt" has been attacked for being negative and hurtful when....it's not. It's just someone saying they don't like something. They are allowed to not like it and are allowed to express that opinion. There is nothing impolite about that statement, and there is no personal attack. People say it brings nothing to the discussion, well, "I love that sculpt!!!11!!" brings nothing to the discussion either.

 

You misunderstand me. I know what its intention is and I have nothing against the phrase itself, only how it is sometimes used.
I have seen it used several times on DoA and always was it used to 'set someone straight' who wasn't even rude or getting personal, he/she just stated a (polite) opinion. But because stating a negative opinion is easily mistaken for a personal attack, when someone uses the 'if you can't'- proverb in that situation, it almost sounds like only sugarcoated comments are accepted.
One person might have a different opinion as to what 'common courtesy' is than another.
I doubt I made myself clear, I have trouble finding the right words...

@inkybear: I don't think it is necessary to say that 'something is just in someone's head.' You probably didn't mean it this way, but it sounds dismissive. And I never said rudeness is acceptable. I've been quite clear that giving criticism should be done gently and polite.

 

Silk, what I meant was that if a person feels they are being forced to sugar-coat their opinions or even outright lie then I think it is their interpretation of the saying "If you can't say something nice..." that is skewed, rather than the saying is in the wrong. That saying only promotos politeness, which is possible even when saying something negative. I did not mean for it to sound dismissive.

It sounds like in general we agree that a polite negative comment is perfectly acceptable, I just personally have never seen anyone on DoA get in a tiffy over an honest critique (in the proper forum) that was less than stellar.

Edit: Just wanting to add in I also feel that people who utilize that quote in order to only garner positive and gushing responses are too interpreting it incorrectly. Nice does not equal dishonest. Nice simply means manners, simple as that. And if a person specifically does request for NO critique on their photos or dolls and wishes to just enjoy them as is, that's where the 'don't say anything at all' comes in. Why point out a flaw in something that a person is already enjoying on their own?