Do you feel that you should pretend to love dolls that you don’t?

I have to agree with everything in Silk's post... But then, given the way his little "rule" is so often used as a passive-agressive tactic to shut down any and all possibilty of disagreement, I also firmly believe Thumper ought to have been shot, skinned and stewed with carrots and onions.

As I've said many, many times before in threads like this, there's a difference between being honest and being an ass... 'Trouble is, not everyone is willing to notice that distinction. Some among us really do believe that anything short of "OMG, I love it!" is unacceptable negativity or a personal affront to their taste.

 

There is a difference between opinion and critique. Opinion is "I like it" - critique is judging something by established criteria. Your average doll owner hasn't been educated on how to offer critique, and just expresses opinion instead.

Example (I was born in the bible belt, we use parable for everything - another cultural difference):

I am watching the Olympics. I see someone give a great performance, I'm completely moved by their performance. Some one else comes along and bores me. They win. WHAT?!? Well, the Olympic judges have specific criteria they are using when they judge. As a spectator I am not educated about the details. That is one thing I find useful about having commentators, they point out that "this person is skating clean, but their transitions aren't as strong". That is critique, not opinion.

With creative items like dolls and photos, everyone feels they are giving critique just because they have opinions, but you need more than that. Being successful at critique is being able to make educated comments about something, and not just express personal opinion.

Personally I think people need to self-edit when they post to the gallery or photostories on DOA, and run down the "checklist" - faceup looks professional? eyes positioned well? wig neat? background clean and neat? doll clean and neat? nothing in the background that is unintended or distracting? photo in focus? lighting adequate? Posing looks natural? Clothing is nice and fits the doll well? Groups of photos aren't repetitive? You answered no to one of those? Post in critique to find out how to improve, post to your LJ for your friends, don't post in the gallery on DOA, wait and only post your best work here. The forum is too big now for every photo.

 

This problem isn't only found on DoA - it's universal. The problem is that communication is 90% interpersonal cues - facial expressions, tone of voice, body language - and all of that is lost in text. So it's very easy to misinterpret what someone types hastily vs what they actually wanted to convey, because all we see are the words, devoid of all other cues (unless things like smileys and colors are involved). And because of that, the reader's own feelings play into how the message is interpreted.

Original post: OMG isn't my doll beautiful!?? I just got her, isn't she just amazing?!!
Response: I'm not a fan of the sculpt, the eyes are a little close together for my taste. (Honest, but did it really need to be said, in this thread? Unless the original poster asked you specifically what you thought of their doll, chances are good they just want to share their excitement.)
Response: How exciting for you, congrats on the new arrival! (Honest, and simple. No need to point out how you think the hair resembles a bird's nesk and the eyes are creepy - they just want to let you know how excited they are.)

Original post: I'm thinking of getting XYZ doll...
Response: Those dolls are shite, the resin is cheap, and they all look like they just had the brains scared out of them. (Honest opinion, and here, maybe even appropriate. Ish. But do you really need to throw names around to get your point across?)
Response: The company doesn't have a great reputation. The resin they use is a little rougher and grainier, and sometimes has streaking. And a lot of the sculpts have the same facial expression, so it's difficult for me to tell them apart. (Honest opinion. Same as above, but worded in such a way as to be informative instead of attacking. And when you hold them up side by side, doesn't the first response look like an attack by comparison?)

Thumper's Rule in play. And it can go for positive responses too - nobody likes a backhanded compliment. "Oh, that's such a pretty wig! It's covering up those horrible eyebrows, lol!"

 

@Inkiebear: Yup, sounds like we do agree.

@Sandkitten: I know the problem is universal, but since this debate is about the culture of DoA, I focused on that point.

@Brightfires: I agree. Becoming diner was probably the best career move Thumper could've made. ... And now I'm hungry...

 

In pretty much any of my hobbies that I've had, it's been the same. You're never going to like the same things exactly that others do, but how you handle it is the key. I don't lie about how I feel, but I don't go out of my way to elaborate why I don't (unless pressured to do so). I'll sincerely congratulate a friend if they get something that they really like even if I don't care for it. It's not really my place to tell them what is/isn't acceptable. For example, one of my anime cels that I purchased had a clipped corner which didn't bother me much as it was outside the image and not noticeable when matted and framed. Posted a picture of it in the frame on a message board and had a person post about how they'd considered bidding on it, but wouldn't spend money on a damaged cel. Completely unnecessary comment that is one of the reasons I stopped posting there.

 

Well, I read a fair few responses here, and I have to say it isn't just a BJD thing to be oversensitive. I'm on another off-topic site where people who can't handle critique or different opinions fly off the handle all the time. Of course, the people there tend to be a lot more insulting when describing their contempt for a certain genre then on this site...

But anyway, my point is the same there as it is on DOA. If you can't handle different people's opinions, don't post your artwork, photos of dolls, bring them out, etc. Sure, it would be great if people would be more polite. But not everyone will be. And instead of asking the world to be nicer, I think it's just easier to just ignore people who are jerks, accept nice people with different opinions, and have fun.

To me, I just don't understand the concept of putting your stuff out for random people to comment on online, and expecting they are going to be nice. Or even in public, in doll meets. It's a bit different if you are walking down the street. It's unreasonable to insult, comment on, or even care about every single thing every single person has. But if you are going to a meet where the main focus is the dolls... Again, chances are people might say negative things about your dolls. And it would be nice if they didn't, but that could be applied to any negative comment people say in life.

So yeah, my opinion is that people should just ignore negative comments rather than expecting everyone to be polite.

 

But if you love the cel, and it makes you happy, then why do you care what a random person on the internet thinks?

If you share a photo of something precious on an public forum (a doll, a cel, your dog, yourself) then you are opening yourself up for both positive and negative comments. The validation and happiness you get from compliments comes at the risk of critique. That's just the way it is. That doesn't mean people should get a free pass to be rude, but the less you care about what random strangers think, the happier you'll be.

 

This pretty much sums up how I try and conduct myself on the internet.

 

Exactly.

I often feel like the doll hobby, or at least a lot of what goes on with the forums, is more about getting validation, compliments, agreement and other "positive strokes" from other people than actually about enjoying the dolls and making them up and playing with them. I feel that a lot of the people complaining about supposed "rudeness", whether it involves comments about dolls, comments about companies, or disagreement over something like "do dolls have a soul", are just ticked off that they didn't get their little validation cookie and instead got a piece of coal in a bag. Why did it matter in the first place? Or to put it another way, if you just wanted to share your doll or your photo with people who'd say what you want, why not just get a LiveJournal and lock it so you can control who's allowed to comment, instead of posting on a semi-public forum with hundreds of people of varying tastes?

 

It didn't affect my enjoyment of the cel. But that (and other similar incidents) affected my enjoyment of the forum, so I don't participate there any more.

 

-On the DOA boards where discussion and debates are the norm, do you feel that it is acceptable and safe to express dislike for a doll or doll company?
Acceptable? Yes, definitely. It's an opinion, rather than a fact. Regardless of what opinion I might have in, say Dollmore, the company still sells their dolls and still makes money. Thus, people still find companies like Dollmore perfect for their tastes. As for it being safe... that would depend on the people in the discussion/debate thread. If they're mature and reasonable, it should be perfectly safe. If not... well...

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.
As far as the Gallery is concerned, I do believe that we shouldn't say anything bad about the dolls there. A constructive critique if asked for is just fine. For a comparison thread, or a review thread, we shouldn't sugarcoat. Not saying that we should outright say any certain company or mold is bad, ugly, whatever, but we shouldn't sugarcoat the problems or the issues we've had.

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. It would be awkward to drop into someone’s thread just to tell them their doll was not to your liking wow.
Awkward is an understatement! ^^; In a thread discussing companies or aesthetics, I think it'd be a good idea to check the general mood of the thread before lambasting the mold/company. Also exercise tact. It's one thing to express your opinion, discuss it in a mature fashion, and quite another to start a fight over the internet.

-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)
Nope. I know for a fact that not many people like/appreciate/are into Obitsu Gretels or DM Thinking Larmes. My Larme is a limited mold that was up for sale for over a year before being sold out on his original company. If people don't like my dolls, I'm not offended. I'd like to know why, as in what exactly they don't like, but that's more because I'm interested in things like that than trying to defend my doll.

-Do you find that you can’t help but feel offended/attacked/defensive when someone does not approve of a doll you happen to own? If so why?
Not at all. I want to know why, of course, as I said above, but I'm not going to write an article about why they should love my doll. Hey, maybe they see something wrong with him/her that I don't or can't, and I just needed and outside opinion to see it.

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad?
No...

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?
Nope. I seriously doubt that anything I can say could possibly change their minds about what they like or don't like. And I don't see a reason why I should. Now, if they were forceful or rude about the fact that they didn't like my doll, I might want to try to get them to be a little more tactful or polite about it.

 

-On the DOA boards where discussion and debates are the norm, do you feel that it is acceptable and safe to express dislike for a doll or doll company?
Why not? Just don't go out of your way to say "OMG that doll is ugly!" Doing it tactfully, like "I'm sorry, but XXX Company's dolls are just not my thing" is acceptable, and healthy, naturally.

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.
If someone is trying to be tactful and the person takes offence...that's overly sensitive.

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. It would be awkward to drop into someone’s thread just to tell them their doll was not to your liking wow.
Yeps, I do. I have told friends that no, i don't really like XXX company.

-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)
I don't mind, to each his or her own.

-Do you find that you can’t help but feel offended/attacked/defensive when someone does not approve of a doll you happen to own? If so why?
Personal attacks on my tastes would make me feel offended. However, if the doll is not to their taste, i have no right forcing them to like my doll.

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad?
No, i don't really think so. I just don't comment when I feel that I dislike the doll ^^;

-If you are someone who does get defensive do you feel totally justified when you are mad? If so why?
NA, since i do not get defensive.

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?
Everyone has their own tastes, for example with my dollie friends in school, they are not afraid to tell me they dislike the delf line, but like the senior, kid and honey delf. I do not really like kid delfs, and i say as much. Just don't offend anyone by insinuating their tastes are bad.

 

-On the DOA boards where discussion and debates are the norm, do you feel that it is acceptable and safe to express dislike for a doll or doll company?
Yes, of course, unless it is said in an intentionally rude fashion.

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.
I think everyone should be honest, as long as you don't go out of your way to insult something. No point in that. And I have personally never encountered anyone on DoA being oversensitive to negative comments. As far as being understanding towards them if they were, it would just depend on the situation.^^

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. It would be awkward to drop into someone’s thread just to tell them their doll was not to your liking wow.
Definitely. Stating your distaste for something in a tactful manner is far different than attacking someone else's personal taste.
-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)
Not at all. I would never expect everyone to enjoy the same things I enjoy.^^

-Do you find that you can’t help but feel offended/attacked/defensive when someone does not approve of a doll you happen to own? If so why?
Not really, unless that person was legitimately just trying to upset me.

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad?
Nope.

-If you are someone who does get defensive do you feel totally justified when you are mad? If so why?
Nah. If I do ever get defensive over something, I usually realize it was silly later on. There's no justification in being defensive over a lot of things. ;p

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?
Nah, unless they inquire as to why I disagree with them in a casual manner, which would be kind of unnecessary, but the point was, I wouldn't go out of my way to convince anyone to like something simply because I like it.

 

I have not responded on the forum to say that I didn't like any particular mold, however, if someone posts asking for an opinion on such-and-such body or brand, I will give an honest response. (For example, saying that in my experience that joint is poorly designed or the head looks out of proportion to the body it's sold with.

I wouldn't say "that's an ugly sculpt," because clearly everyone has a different opinion on what beauty is, and adding my opinion is pretty irrelevant unless someone is asking for feedback. Same with brands and sizes--it's all just opinion.

I don't bother to defend my dolls. I know lots of people, for example, don't like the BBB sculpts, but I love my Sprite as much as my Luts dolls. It does not matter to me if YOU or anyone else likes the sculpts, so there's no need for me to pipe up and say "but but but I love them!" unless it's to give specific advice, like to say that I "fixed" a popping joint with glue or to say that the doll is greatlty improved when re-strung.

 

I'm pretty new to dolls, and also brutally honest. If I have nothing nice to say about someone's doll, I'd dodge and weave, then change the subject. But honestly, I have yet to meet a doll I didn't like.

 

"If you can't say somethin nice- Don't say nothin' at all."
We learned this from Thumper the rabbit in Disney's Bambi. If you don't like something that's left up to someone else's taste, Simply. keep. your. mouth. shut.
Manners used to be taught in homes and schools everywhere, and they aren't that difficult for the modern person to learn.

 

I think it is perfectly acceptable for you to express dislike towards a sculpt or a company in a tasteful manner, but only where it is appropriate. If it is a discussion for certain aspects of the company's service or resin-quality, for example, then it is perfectly acceptable to express your dislike. If it is someone's personal doll, however, I think it's completely unnecessary to express dislike. I wouldn't be insulted if someone said that they disliked my doll's sculpt in a nice way, especially if I had asked their opinion on it. These are the kind of situations are where the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" rule applies. I wouldn't feel the need to convince anyone of the beauty in my dolls. They are works of art, and like any good art, people will have different opinions and tastes regarding dolls.

 

I tend to take the "if you can't say something nice" approach to dolls. On another message board I frequent, it's common for people who are "fans" of those dolls to straight up rip apart dolls that the company is releasing if they don't like the dolls. They'll say, "this is a dumb idea; the dolls used to be so much better; they should have done XYZ instead," etc. I don't see the point in this, since it's much simpler to just think to oneself, "this doll is not for me, I won't buy it".

As for BJD's I may not like a particular face mold, but if I see an example of that doll where I think the faceup, styling, and wig are well done, I may like that particular doll, and I'll say so, but I won't say something like "I hate that doll, but what you've done with it looks great".

As for what other people think of my choice in dolls, I've spent too long in hobbies that are on the "fringe" to care much what people think. Not everyone is going to like every doll, this is part of why there are so many different styles out there. If someone doesn't like the way my doll body poses, thinks the color of the resin is weird, thinks teh face/faceup aren't 'pretty' enough, oh well, I DIDN'T MAKE HIM FOR YOU!!! LOL

 

-On the DOA boards where discussion and debates are the norm, do you feel that it is acceptable and safe to express dislike for a doll or doll company?
Yes. IMHO (in my humble opinion), the "Thumper Rule" can be easily misinterpreted to force either "happy talk" (which I consider useless at best and dishonest at worst) or silence (which ends discussion and debate).

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.
The so-called "drama-llamas" probably exist; fortunately, I haven't had to deal with them.

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. It would be awkward to drop into someone’s thread just to tell them their doll was not to your liking wow.
Probably yes...although I haven't seen one that really don't like (yet).

-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)
No.

-Do you find that you can’t help but feel offended/attacked/defensive when someone does not approve of a doll you happen to own? If so why?
No.

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad?
No.

-If you are someone who does get defensive do you feel totally justified when you are mad? If so why?
Not applicable.

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?
No; IMHO, that would be wasting my time and effort.