Do you feel that you should pretend to love dolls that you don’t?

To expand slightly on Taco's post...

You need to remember that all context is lost when you put your thoughts down in text. For example, I could visit one of your photography threads and say "Damn Soliloquy! Your doll looks like the Grinch in drag!" You have no idea how I mean that because you're just reading the words. I could be joking, serious, sarcastic, or even drunk!

I agree with you about some people taking dolls/DoA/the internet waaaay too seriously. This hobby seems too serious sometimes, considering we're all talking about toys. But there's still people on the other end of these avatars. Common courtesy needs to be amplified, simply because you're not getting all the other facial/tone signals from standing face to face.

 

-On the DOA boards where discussion and debates are the norm, do you feel that it is acceptable and safe to express dislike for a doll or doll company?
Absolutely. Otherwise, what would be the point of having a discussion? "I like this." "Oh, I like that too!" isn't really a debate, or even a discussion. it's just affirmative chatter.

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.
I do. Honest opinions, no matter how they are stated, are often skimmed, Paraphrased, and defended against as if they were rude. now honestly, I don't look at Screen names when I'm reading responses, so it might not be the community as a whole, but just a very loud and militant 'nice police'. (though I will state that I've never noticed a 'moderator' tag in any of these discussions unless someone was really being unnecessarily rude.)

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. Well, Just dropping in and saying "I don't like x, sorry." isn't rude, but it doesn't really add to the discussion either. I see nothing wrong with "I don't like most Volks dolls because I've never been fond of childish sculpts. I much prefer Dollshe."
Or
"The Hound has a really funny frog butt. Has anybody else noticed this?"
The difference is in the specifics. There's a reason stated, and reasons may spark legitimate discussion

-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)
I don't mind. I mean really, I never liked girl dolls. (except maybe that tanned DZ) Why should I be offended if someone says they don't like my Hound cause he looks anorexic? (Honestly, next to my Yuu, he does.) I might defend him a little by presenting reasons I chose the sculpt. I think we should start discussions, not respond with "OMG you don't like my kind of dollie so you hate me!"

-Do you find that you can’t help but feel offended/attacked/defensive when someone does not approve of a doll you happen to own? If so why?
It depends mostly on how it's presented. If I get a 'Wow, you like those? you're sick.' I'm probably done talking with the person and a little offended.
If I hear 'I hate Dollzone.' I don't care really, but might offer some of their positive points as a retort (again, discussion people, that's what we're here for.) Now, if it's more my doll SPECIFICALLY, I might be a little more thin skinned. I can deal with "Archane is kinda creepy" or "I'm just not fond of Lane", But this is where the "I hate Derrik" Is something I'm going to be offended by. Again though, adding reasons and making it into a debate is going to make it less of an insult.

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad? Um, never really unless it was really pathetically childish or a completely unfounded 'fact'. Things like "OMG ALL PEOPLE WHO OWN VOLKS ARE ELITISTS" Really piss me off.
For example of the 'fact':
Offender: All Dollzone pose like crap!
Me: Have you ever tried posing one?
Offender: No.
Me: How do you know?
Offender: They pose like crap!
Me:

-If you are someone who does get defensive do you feel totally justified when you are mad? If so why?
N/A

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?
Well not really convince, but I will present things I like about them. Maybe I can never convince the person that my favorite doll is 'beautiful', but maybe I can at least open their eyes to some of the positive things about it. Who knows, they might find a sculpt they love by the same company later that they would have completely overlooked if not for our discussion. The same could happen to me ^.^

 

-Do you feel that you should pretend to love dolls that you don’t?

Not really...but at the same time I wouldn't feel comfortable on this forum expressing that I don't care for a mold. I'm not about to go into someone's thread and state that their doll is ugly [which I think the OP wasn't using as an example anyway], that is just rude as I'm sure most people can agree on. If someone shows me a doll they own I feel obligated to make a positive comment...which I hate.

-Do you find that DOA members are overly sensitive to someone not liking their doll? Or do you totally understand the offended party and think people should only say good things on DOA about all dolls.

I believe they are. I was chided by a mod when making a simple joke about AR dolls being unproportionate. As I OWN TWO AR RENS myself I found it silly that my comment was deleted. It wasn't a spiteful comment towards the company and it wasn't steered at anyone's personal doll...it's just a fact.

Though with places like Den of Demons I suppose I can understand why some people can be on edge with anything resembling a negative comment. I was snarked there in the past and was butthurt but after visiting a few other wank communities I realized that those people were HONEST [harsh, but honest] and it was their critique that made me realize I could do better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...not all negative comments are bad? Keep it civil but don't lie? I dunno... DX

-Are you willing to admit that you don’t like a doll on the DOA board? I don’t mean in a thread where someone is showing off their particular doll. More like in a thread where people are discussing companies or aesthetics. It would be awkward to drop into someone’s thread just to tell them their doll was not to your liking wow.

Yes but only if I can point out exactly why. There are some molds I don't care for but I'm not sure why.

-Would you mind if someone said they were not into a doll you happened to own? (please, I am not looking for examples of one weirdo telling you to your face that your doll was horrible, anyone would hate that!)

I'd probably agree with them. I don't care for some of the molds I own/owned so it wouldn't bother me...

-Have you ever thought that you over reacted in the forum to someone expressing dislike of a doll you happen to own? If so what was it that made you so mad?

No.

-If you are someone who does get defensive do you feel totally justified when you are mad? If so why?

I don't really get upset in this hobby : F

-If someone dislikes a doll you happen to own do you try to convince that person that the doll is beautiful! If so why?

No, I think everyone has different tastes. If I don't like a mold it's not going to matter to me if someone else thinks it's beautiful and vice versa~


I hope I made sense...

 

As someone who also agrees with kogepan, Kim, solilequy and others who've made the point about wanting to just comment on dolls without having to worry so much about it, I think the problem here is that as much as people seem to want there to be some universal definition of "common courtesy" or "good manners", there are going to be a variety of views on what constitutes good or bad manners and whether, when context is lacking, people are going to decide to laugh off a certain comment or take offense.

My favorite Internet forums are those where people on them have obviously been around the Internet block a few times and don't get upset easily, and manage to speak their minds, including disagreement, without engaging in or encouraging the sort of pointless trolling designed to just rile folks up. Granted, a lot of those forums are smaller than the world of doll collectors, and involve people who by now know each other well enough not to get out of joint with each other, but it wasn't always so when they started up. Also, in some of my other hobbies, debates over whether a particular band, sports team, movie etc. is good or bad are considered an enjoyable part of interacting, rather than some sort of courtesy violation if you say "Aw, so and so hasn't made a decent movie since 1993 in my opinion" or something even stronger than that.

When you go from those sorts of environments into "Doll World" the contrast is pretty striking. It didn't put me off the hobby because I'm in this for the dolls, and any discussions/ interactions I have with other people about dolls are just a sidenote, but it definitely took a major adjustment on my part. I also understand that people from different regions or cultures might have different ideas of manners - I see this even within certain regions and cultures in the USA - and that English is not everybody's first language so they might not understand all the nuances that go into a particular remark. I'm not saying things have to change, but people need to stop just assuming that everybody shares their idea of "common courtesy" because there's definitely a big gray area between "clearly nice and polite" (i.e. "Wow, your doll is pretty!" ) and "clearly rude" (i.e. "Wow, your doll sure is ugly!" )

 

The different between dolls and shoes is this, personality. Many of us see our dolls as being people. We invest emotions in them as well as our time and money. So yes the bjd community can seem too stifling at times, but one of the reasons we should try to be polite is so everyone can feel comfortable sharing the dolls they love with complete strangers. No one has to like every doll they see or say something nice about it, but try to remember that when you insult someone’s doll it’s like insulting someone’s baby. Giving constructive criticism can be helpful, but if everyone said every negative thing they wanted to nobody would feel safe posting their dolls because there will always be someone out there who won’t like what you like. In order to keep a community like this running we have exercise a cretin restraint. That is what being polite is all about. Helping a community stay together and run well.

 

As shown by the threads about whether dolls are more like "humans" (i.e. do they have souls, are they like your children, etc.) or more like lovely "objects", there is also a wide variety of viewpoints on this. To me, a doll is a pretty, inanimate object. It is not a person and it is not like someone's child. For someone to behave like I insulted their child is therefore way beyond the pale of an acceptable response, to me.

 

However, just because a person does not believe their dolls to take the place of a human or whathaveyou, does not mean that person still has not spent alot of money on obtaining the doll (and for some people this is much more difficult than others and that journey in itself might have been very trying), or that alot of time and work went into creating something very unique. As artists (which I am not saying everyone here wishes to be, but alot of people are who do NOT view their dolls as children), there can also be that other type of connection about putting alot of work into something and inevitably being proud of it.

There is no fault in that since I think alot of people would tend to agree these dolls attract alot more of the creative sort, hands-on folks, than other types of dolls. And when someone puts alot of effort into creating something nice, regardless of whether or not they think of that doll as a living creature, it can still sting for others to insult it like any ordinary thing that did not have alot of personal time invested into it, just the same way a person might be feel a little hurt over a drawing or painting that had alot of work put into it. Do people normally consider paintings as children or humans? No. But a whole mass of work and time are usually put into them, just as some people do in creating their dolls so I don't see how it's not understandable why some people might feel a bit defensive about their dolls. I am not advocating that it is alright for people to have full-blown heart attacks if someone dislikes their doll, but pointing out that there certainly other reasons why a person might be emotionally invested in something aside from this whole 'dolls have souls' aspect.

 

I'll agree that the concept of an artist having an emotional investment in his or her work, whether that's a faceup or just creating a character and choosing a look for a doll, and maybe not wanting to hear criticism, is a lot more understandable and relatable than the "my doll is like a human to me" concept.

 

I think the issue is that we have to understand that either situation is possible with people, and not everyone can just laugh it off.

 

And yet, most artists are used to criticism. After having gone through art school and working on several projects in the game industry, some stranger telling me that my doll sucks doesn't hurt me anymore like it used to... or at least I won't throw a tantrum because of it. Criticism is part of my job and my superiors usually don't sugarcoat it when they think something I created was not to their expectations. I just don't believe I'm such a unique case and that everyone else on this planet has been through a flower and bunny filled school where all they do is hold hands all day.

Agreeing with Kim, Kogepan and Soliquy here that this fandom is taking itself way too seriously. Of course, I don't plead for a community where everyone can simply bash everyone else, but I'd like to be able to have a discussion about a newly released doll without having to worry I'm stepping on the toes of 'the defenders of the artiiists'.

 

Yes, criticism is part of your job, as you noted. But what about the other artists here who simply use art as a hobby for stress release and pleasure? Should they have to deal with criticism on their work as well? Or do you consider artists only those who make their livelihood off of their work?

 

I think artists in general need to grow a thicker skin, regardless of whether they pursued it as a career or just a hobby. Critiques from others is really the only way they can improve at what they're doing and learn I think that every artists wants and needs to improve. Not saying that everyone should be cool with having their pieces thrown in the mud and trampled on, but some are so... sensitive, I guess, that they happen to take offense in the idea that someone out there doesn't believe they're Michelangelo and blow a fuse when someone tries to offer them honest and helpful critique. Even in forums/subforums specifically designed for this. I don't think an artist is defined by how seriously they try to pursue art, but by how understanding they are that not everyone might like their finished result. When interpreted correctly, critique is a powerful tool.

I remember a few years ago my mother walked in while I was busy drawing an old character of mine and exclaimed "What is that ugly thing?!" in full seriousness. Boy, did I mope and whine and post emo-filled posts in my DA journal the rest of the day, but my mother just said that she's allowed to have her own opinion and that just because she was my mother, doesn't mean she has to fawn over everything I do. My own mother. I came across the post while reading up on old entries and laughed out loud at how pathetic and entitled I sounded. I'm really glad she did it, because that slap woke me up to taking criticism and improvement seriously.

 

I never stated that I think it is right for people to whine and cry and mope if someone didn't claim instant love to their doll, I simply gave another reason as to why some people might hold a deep value to their dolls even if they don't view them as their children. And while you may personally feel that "all artists wants and needs to improve", how you think how other artists view their work has very little to do with how they actually feel in that regard. Some people are perfectly happy with the joy they receive merely out of creating something, regardless if it is the crappiest piece of junk someone else has ever laid eyes on. If the point of that crappy piece of junk was to make the creator happy with the work process involved in making it, who has the right to come along and critique them if they did not ask for it because that person assumes they must certainly "want" to improve? Not everyone works on something to get better at it, but merely for the sake of doing it because it is enjoyable to them.

Do not mistake that what I am saying applies to those who specifically ask for a critique. I do feel that if you ask for something you should be prepared to face the possible answers you may recieve, and on the flip side those giving critiques should still be tactful in the way their words are presented. However, if one is not asking for critique (placing up a picture or a photo does not automatically imply the creator wishes for suggestions from others) and simply having fun on their own terms, who has the right to impose on their work because surely they would be happier if things looked a little nicer? Certainly there are plenty of people who say they are relieved from harsh words they recieved in the past, even if they hurt back then, as it helped them to improve greatly in their craft, but there are just as many people who would be equally as happy without such helpful remarks.

In any case my personal tactic is to give suggestions only on those who specifically state they wish for me to do so,and place up photos of WIPs for critique only when I am absolutely certain that I have worked on it to the best of my ability and sincerely wish to improve it. And at other times I like to draw and photograph my dolls merely for the sake that I find it pleasurable and do not mind they are not genius works of art, and I do not see why I have to be so serious about my hobbies 100% of the time.

 

Well, I should've mentioned it applied only to people asking for critiques instead of making it sound general, though I would definitely appreciate pointers in the gallery on how to improve my photography/whatever. But I guess the environment there is not set up for taking suggestions and critique, although I think if one puts up pictures and/or drawings on the internet they should expect all kinds of feedback on it.

But even in the critique subforums, breaking into the "you're mean" routine towards honest critique is more common than in any other fandom, probably inspired by the whole mentality elsewhere in this hobby. Like I said, full-out snark may not be the best option, but the coddling mentality is not entirely helpful either. It just often feels so fake that even compliments begin to lose their worth because you don't know whether the "cute!" comment you got was an honest one or because the poster looked, shuddered, but felt bad about not posting and did anyways.

And as a personal note, I do draw/take doll pictures for fun and personal enjoyment where I'm not as focused on improvement and learning. The world never sees them because I have no intention of showing things that weren't my best that were meant to be something fun, and which could misrepresent me.

 

It applies to those artists as well. Criticism is simply one thing you'll have to deal with when making art. Showing something you made will force a reaction, wether you want to or not. If you don't want that, the only way to avoid comments is to hide your work from everyone.
Look, as a professional I write stories, but in my spare time I love to sculpt dolls. Because I sometimes put pictures on the internet of my doll's progression I expect people to comment on them. I also keep in mind that it could very well be that others won't like what I do. That’s just a risk I take when I show my work.

You say that people have no right to criticise others when they didn’t ask for comments, but we also have no right to force someone to shut up. Freedom of speech is there for everyone. Though some take this right a bit too far I prefer a blunt remark over covering up what you truly think, because it keeps the community honest and healthy.

 

I think most people understand it, but understanding it is something different from agreeing to always accommodate it.

 

About the whole artist thing (I was wondering when this was going to appear)--I had a critique last week, I've been through lots when I was getting my BA. They don't bother me at all. I can give and accept criticism--without that, I wouldn't learn anything.

HOWEVER, this is not art school, and unless you're offering commissions it's not creating work for clients. This is a hobby. Just because someone is fine with critiques in a classroom or getting feedback from one's boss, doesn't mean they want to constantly be critiqued in their hobbies. But that's why we have a critique forum. If I want help with something, I'll ask. If I ever get a camera to practice with, I'll most likely be posting pics and asking for help (especially with indoor lighting, because I know it's a problem for me). However, sometimes people just post stuff because they want to share, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to do that. Being able to ask for help and get feedback can be invaluable, but it doesn't mean that it's something that people want every single time they post something to the web. For a lot of people, this is where they come to relax and share with other hobbyists, and they don't necessarily want the extra pressure. Also, we have such a huge and varied forum that it's not always obvious what people need to improve. Some people here make no pretensions to being artists, some are quite young, some deal with critiques frequently in other areas of life and don't want to deal with that here, while others do want more feedback. That's why it's ultimately better for everyone to restrict critiques to times when individuals ask for them. People always have the ability to ask for feedback, more information, help etc.

Freedom of speech does apply to anyone, and you can physically say or type what you want. However, just because we can say something doesn't always mean we should. People don't go through life just spouting off what they happen to be thinking at the moment, even though we have the right to free speech. When we post stuff on-line, there is always the potential for negative comments and that's part of life, but that doesn't mean that people should always do that.

Again, I'm not saying that people shouldn't ever give opinions, but they need to think about how they're doing it.

 

Taco, yet again, nails it in one shot. That's exactly it, IMHO.

Plus, in art school, or other environments where critique is the norm, you learn something pretty valuable -- how best to give and receive it. That's incredibly relevant!

Badly given crit can make the person doing it look far more stupid than the person receiving it, too. Saw more than a few cases of that in art school. Armchair "experts" sometimes think they know what they're seeing, but really don't, especially when it comes to more obscure media or designs.

 

I was not going to wade into this thread, but there is nothing that makes me angrier than seeing someone toss around "Freedom of Speech" without understanding exactly what it means.

Let's look at what "Freedom of Speech" really means:

The government cannot regulate your freedom of speech. Private individuals and industry legally can, and do, limit the freedom of speech. DoA is a privately-owned internet forum, therefore its mods may do exactly that.

Right now, rereading the last couple of pages, I am seeing people trying to find an excuse to behave in ways they would not do face to face, just like this:



Am I wrong or am I right?

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Den of Angels is not allowed to have its forum rules the way they see it, as it is a privately owned forum, and I don't think anyone has called for a change in the rules. It's more dissatisfaction with people still taking offense to things that are within the rules because they are overly sensitive, and the overall attitude that you can only say something if it's sunshine and rainbows.

And I would say you're wrong since I will not type anything that I would not say to someone's face. Part of the blunt, forthcoming nature and all.