Do you like the idea of "limited" dolls?

I think the idea is funny, but so frustrating, because of the short time to have one of them, and the price, how to have enough money when you love one of the limited dolls when you can't preparate his arrival? This is not always the main problem but it could be very frustrating for a lot of people, I think...

 

Do I like the idea of limited dolls? No.

There's already enough back and forth accusation of elitism etc. in the hobby that I've never understood people's affection (mania?) for limited dolls. And when a "limited" or OOAK can be created by virtue of a different fullset or faceup (isn't the point that we can individualise any doll?), I find even less reason to get behind the limited concept. I guess I've just seen enough limited release events turn otherwise pleasant people into graceless, churlish, mean-spirited people, and any sales model that can persuade a person to that behaviour just isn't worth it (let's sidestep the issue that behaving this way is actually a choice people make).

The reality of limited dolls from a business perspective doesn't rely on compassion or wanting to see as many customers as possible partake in the joy of any one creation. It relies on breeding and exploiting covetousness and competition. The practice of offering limiteds is exclusionary, not inclusive. I'm not fond of this (nor do I think many members here are, if discussions about manufacturer elitism is any indication).

I don't need to have the only one--or one of only thirty--of anything to be head-over-heels happy with it.

(It also helps to know that eventually, virtually every doll can be had on the aftermarket, if you're willing to wait ... and once the fad has passed for a particular limited, they can often be had for original issue price, if not less! This tends to suggest that every limited has value as a limited for only a limited amount of time. Hmmm.)

 

I agree. Some of the comments that I have seen people make here on DoA as well as on company websites are pretty cringeworthy when it comes to items that either are limited or were perceived to be limited (just by mold only, ie the hullabaloo over the rerelease of some Soom MD sculpts).

I don't normally go after limiteds and the ones I do have, I definitely feel very lucky to have.

 

I think it's callous & nasty & meanspirited to automatically assume that a company's motives for releasing a limited edition is purely motivated by money and/or generating ill will amongst customers. Did anyone stop to consider that some of these companies might not be able to make huge unlimited editions of every one of their works? They might not have the money, materials, or personpower to make more than 50 from a certain mold, or to have enough tint to make more than 75 tanned dolls, or to dress-and-paint more than 125 of a fullset, or what-have-you.

Or, all questions of "can" aside, did it ever occur to anyone that some artists might not want every single one of their dolls to achieve worldwide dilution?

No, not at all. Rather, this claim depends on the particular doll. Some desirable LE sculpts continue to be sought-after for years after they're off the primary market, and even their heads continue to command wild prices. Other LEs were never very desirable in the first place, so once their promotion ends & the public's attention wanes, their limitedness is a blip on the collective radar.

 

While I will admit that I DO like limited dolls, I think it turns people into elitists sometimes. I also see a lot of people who set the price super ultra high in the second hand market BECAUSE it is a limited doll (no matter whether the fad has passed or not).

But for me personally I like that there are limited dolls because (I've been soomed DX) and it really forces me to think about what I am buying and if I take too long to decide and the ordering period ends well then it probably wouldn't have been a good choice to buy it in the first place.
Something that also helps me not to buy is the fact that I almost NEED to see owner pics first, and since I cant do that with limiteds I really think about buying first.
So I guess I do like the idea of them but not the way that they make some people who have them stuck up. Idk if that makes any sense ^^;

 

And some LEs weren't very desirable or well-publicized in the first place but gain popularity afterwards, so once their promotion ends, their price on the second-hand market skyrockets!

There are some companies that I wish did more re-releases *cough*VolksYukinojo*cough*, but in general I don't understand why people are so down on limited dolls. Don't think a limited-edition faceup & outfit is worth the extra price and limited time frame? Don't buy it! But if someone else does think the faceup and outfit, or the particular sculpt or resin colour, are worth paying for, that doesn't make them an elitist jerk.

I also notice that a lot of people who say "I don't like LEs because they cause people to act like jerks" meaning that people can start acting elitist if they succeed in getting an LE, don't think of the fact that being very vocal about how hurt one is by the fact that one missed out on a doll is kind of being a jerk too. Lots of people have mentioned how unfair it is that they can't save up for an LE because they don't know it's coming; people have talked about how mean it is for the companies to choose only 50 or 100 people to make very happy instead of opening it up to anyone - but to me that kind of reads like the other face of the "wah, I wanna be special" elitism coin! Maybe that's further argument that LEs are a Bad Idea, but in my opinion it's a very strong argument that we are all in control of our own behaviour, and we shouldn't put our own or other people's on the shoulders of the companies.

 

I agree with this 100%.Sure i can see single artists or very small companies not having the resources to make a large quantity of dolls but I find it hard to believe that the bigger companies would have that type of problem. I always thought that the whole idea of having a limited edition anything was to breed the feeling of "I have something special and exclusive!" in the customer and to trigger the "I have to buy it now before they run out!" reaction.

 

I love limited dolls they add more collector value to the dolls, and make the doll easier to resell lator on. Although a downside may be that somebody may never be able to get their dream doll because of the price.

 

I don't entirely agree with this. I think a lot of people--especially collectors--like the idea that they have something that isn't widely available (and many of the responses to this thread reflect just that). That's why you'll find LEs in all kinds of hobbies, from cars to fashion to artwork. I go to a lot of local art shows, and I've not once heard someone complain that it's "unfair" or "exploiting covetousness" when an artist chooses to release only a limited number of prints. In fact, that's the norm!

Wanting something special and exclusive isn't what drives my collection personally, but I also have to admit that when I've "won" dolls in Volks lotteries, it was exciting. If people like the excitement of obtaining something rare, and if owning a LE makes them happy, then it seems artists/companies that offer LEs are just giving customers what they want. Of course, it's never pleasant when people are jerks, whether about LEs or anything else, but that's their issue, not the company's.

Bottom line, it's not my place to judge artists/companies for what they choose to do with artwork that they've created. Nor do I feel it necessary to question the motivations of people who enjoy owning something rare.

 

I notice that a lot of people seem to think that doll companies are bigger than they are. A doll company being well-known does not necessarily mean they are physically large or well-staffed.

Unless you personally know the people behind that company, and their motivations, then you have no idea why they release what they release. It could be that this company likes to make LEs just because they prefer small releases, & that company likes to make LEs so that they'll have enough money to finance their regular-stock lines. Or, one might have a very well-equipped company who still doesn't like to make unlimited releases of their dolls, because they don't care for the widespread dilution of their art.

No matter the true motivation, the fact that most of us here live in capitalist countries results in a lot of projection of the "Money First" standard onto these companies.... Reading back through the pages of this thread, I've lost count of the number of times where people assumed that money-grubbing was the primary motivation behind the existence of limited edition dolls.

News flash: As long as you place yourself in the "Victims And Have-Nots" camp, you're apparently allowed to be as loud a jerk as you want to be, and never mind how badly you're depressing & insulting all the people around you, who really just want to be able to enjoy their dolls. No "kind of" about it, I'm afraid. And there's no "reverse" on that elitism, either.

 

This pretty much sums up my thinking also. I've made small editions of things much less time-consuming and involved than a doll, and I know that by the time I am nearing the last few pieces, I never want to see that thing again or my brain really will just outright break.

I have to wonder how many people on the forum have worked for a small business before. I know that when my mother and I applied for our jewelry business, 'small' to the banks meant 'up to 100 employees and can keep a minimum of $250k in our accounts.' That isn't small from where I'm sitting -- we'd be calling that a screaming success. Some part of me has to wonder if that's the same definition of 'small' people have been using here, rather than 'maybe five people and someone's garage or a rented workshop', which sounds more like the more common case in the doll industry.

The word 'business' does not automatically grant infinite patience, manpower, or resources, and it's a little disturbing to see how often people seem to believe that it does.

 

I agree with the thought that the company can not mass produce all molds.

Especially when it comes to mixing resin and the whole entire molding process etc. I have worked with resin before and I am sure that I will not be the only one to say that it is quite a long winded process. The more pigment the skin has the more you have to mix together, and the harder it is to get it to not be "streaky." You also have to switch molds often because after a certain point it "goes bad" in a sense. Not to mention all the factors of special attachments and fantasy parts etc. that all have to match the resin color. If the dolls leg comes out bad, the company will make a new doll, not just a new leg. The more factors there are the harder it is to keep the consistency.

 

No. I do not like limited sales on a doll. To say we only made 75 and first come fisrt served is one thing, but to be able to make them when you want and not do it because you want to only do this one for 2 to 3 weeks, is totally insane. Sometimes it takes longer then that to get the money together to get the doll I finally found that I like a lot, but I don't bother if I see limited sales above it. I am sure that there will be one for me, but I don't like the added level of "buy now or you'll miss out forever" that the limited time adds to an already expensive non necessary expenditure. I would prefer a lower price between the dates of blah and blah and a higher price for any other dates for the availability of the same doll.

 

I agree and would like to add that my issue is tanned dolls which are almost always limited editions. What is going to happen is I will either soon be forced to learn to make my own dolls to get what I want or I will learn to buy nice bodies, die them and learn to re-sculpt heads to suit my needs and purposes. I am looking for a doll making class as we speak. I'd rather make my own OOAK BJD then buy it. I have ideas of my own that so far I have yet to see any company tackle.

 

*cough* Long post is long.

I can understand you aren't a fan of limiteds when you can make every doll unique, but I don't agree with what you've written here at all.

1. It's not the responsibility of companies when people act nasty. Like you said; it's a choice that people make.
Even if all limiteds were banned from the hobby, I'm pretty sure people will find another reason to be jerks. Sometimes I think it's a part of being human to nag or complain about anything.

2. Since when has it become a wrong thing when companies use a business strategy to make money? I thought that financially getting by was kind of the point?
In this hobby we tend to have a friendly and almost personal relationship towards the doll artists that we sometimes forget that they are still running a business. And that's what these doll-stores are. They are not our friends, they are not our friendly-neighborhood spiderman, they are businesses, out to make money. Because if they don't, they won't be making dolls for long.

3. The idea that doll companies must be mean spirited evil masterminds out to exclude people, is a liiitle too snowflakey for me. We don't know why doll artists produce dolls in limited quantities. Perhaps it's because it's a smart way of doing business, perhaps it's because they don't have enough time or employees to make all their dolls into standards. But it could also be that they are artists and simply aren't interested in doing the same thing over and over again. That they want to spend most of their time sculpting, not casting.

4. You said that you don't need a doll to be a one of a kind to be head over heels happy with it, but not everyone is like you. Japan is notorious for having limited versions of just about anything, because the people LOVE it. And every time a new limited doll is about to be released, DoA is buzzing with anticipation. If a company wants to give her customers that option, it shows she wants her buyers to be happy, not that she wants to divide them.

5. About the price of limiteds in the long run: you can't predict what will happen. Some dolls will loose their value and popularity, but there have been others that weren't very popular in the first place, but if you want to buy them now.. well, prepare for an empty savings acount (Kanon Louis, for instance).

 

Hmm, this is a very good point! Why are these darn doll companies out to make money and ensure that their business is successful? Why don't they struggle along, barely making rent on their studios and having to go on hiatus for long stretches when their day jobs get in the way like they used to? Shock!

Someone upthread mentioned that it's probably part of North American culture to think "business" and jump straight to "multinational corporation." Although there are a number of operations that really are just a dude with a day job, some of the doll companies are definitely companies (I'm pretty sure Volks is not a five-person operation, not with the number of stores they supply), but they are still a far cry from the big insurance companies or giants like Wal-Mart that, yes, are probably disgustingly profitable for the few lucky folks at the top. In the doll world it seems very much like profits get poured into making more & better dolls, not just lining people's pockets. Look at some of the companies that have done well in the last couple of years, and wonder at the explosion of originality they have produced! There are amazing things happening with Fairyland's body engineering - probably financed in part by sales of fullset and LE dolls. Iplehouse, too, is breaking new ground with their sculpting - but if nobody had wanted to buy limited edition Akando, maybe they wouldn't have thought designing Jessica was a gamble worth putting money and time into. And Soom, well, their outfits alone are some of the most stunning I've come across...where did they get the money to start designing them? To go out looking for interesting fabrics? To hire the people who put them together? Oh, that's right, from sales of their dolls, LEs among them.

So let's just keep in mind, when we grouse about companies using (gasp!) marketing tactics (shock!), that they aren't running away with our hard-earned cash, but basically putting it back into the hobby we love so much. Who here really begrudges the person who painted their doll a living wage? Not me!

 

Silk (and others) ... in reply:

First and foremost, the question this thread asks is: Do you like the idea of "limited" dolls? My answer, which is only my opinion and nothing more, is: No. I do not like the idea of "limited" dolls. The idea, mind. Because I play the game alongside everyone else here, like it or not, if the limited is a doll I really like.

1. I don't think we are in disagreement here. So we do agree on something.

2. I did not say it was wrong for a company to use a business strategy to make money. I said I mind that the strategy relies on (not is purely motivated by ... that has a different meaning) creating covetousness and competition. I'd actually bet a company makes far less money on a limited release than maintaining an open release when it comes to the costs associated with producing all that is required for the limited release.

3. I did not say companies were mean-spirited or evil. But it is simply a fact that releasing a limited is not about including all comers. Limiteds are, by the very nature, exclusionary. I'm sure companies have perfectly valid and justifiable reasons why they do this. I'm just not fond of what results from these reasons.

And I'm curious. What is different about the process of making a standard release that is different about making a limited release? Is making the mould a different process? Do limited moulds last for fewer casts than standard ones before they have to be remade?

4. The world is probably grateful not everyone is like me. And I know I'm not Japanese. I know the major doll makers are Japanese and Korean. I know those cultures are different. I'm a fan of that, actually. But I don't have to like a particular practice. We're not talking tolerance toward a culture here, we're talking personal opinions about limiteds. I don't like 'em. Because after the buzzing, many of those members will be disappointed. Yep, that's life, tough, we take our lumps and soldier on (relatively speaking, because after all, we're talking dolls here). But don't delude yourself the members who lost are happy about it.

5. I wrote, "... if you're willing to wait ... and once the fad has passed for a particular limited ..." One can never predict what will happen, but I think it's fair to say that at some point, the fad for a particular sculpt will be over. Perhaps it will cycle for a bit. But if you wait long enough, I'm gonna bet that Kanon Louis can come to you (generic 'you') at a sweet price. Maybe 5 years from now ... just depends how much you want him and what time you're willing to wait. If he's fad for you, too, then you'll probably be over him by then so it won't matter. If I were after this sculpt, I'd be sitting back in my chair rolling my eyes over the current prices and biding my time.

 

I don't think so, actually. How many times do you read on this board that people first go for the limiteds on their wishlist and later on buy the standards? Problem is, they say, that there always new limiteds that HAVE to be bought, so that CP EL is still waiting to come home. The urgency that comes with limiteds is that people buy and they buy it now, not in 2 months, or 4 years, because then it's too late.

Soom has many standards, and still I think they've sold more Sards and Beryls than Spinels and they are all equally lovely dolls. There's something about that time limit that makes people jump sooner and buy sooner and so, the company makes more money.

They are, yes. But I just can't be bothered with it.

No, but if a limited will sell in higher quantities in a short time, I do think that the molds are well-used in comparison. In the same time that 40 Sards are cast, Soom only produces 5 Spinels, for instance (don't know if it's true, it's just hypothetically). No matter if a doll is limited or a standard, the molds will have to remade after 6 months, because the silicon is loosing its elasticity. So, in this case the molds of Sard were relatively cheaper than Spinel's.

And it's not about the molds per se. Casting takes a lot of time and most companies are small (many are smaller than 5 employees). More standards means more potential buyers, means more time 'wasted' on casting and less that you can spend on sculpting. By introducing limiteds it is easier to manage time (unless, of course you, make a sculpt time-limited)

I hope it's true, but I kind of doubt it, lol. But I agree with you that you don't have to pay these crazy marked-up prices. It's smarter to just wait until you come across a good deal, or until the fad has passed. That's how I got mine.

EDIT: btw, I know that disliking the idea of limiteds doesn't mean cultural intolerance, that was not at all what I meant when adressing Japan. I guess I'm the sort of person who (not so) secretly enjoys the sweet agony of having lost out on a limited. That's when I start to realize if I really want this doll or not and if I have to hunt the marketplace (and for me that's when the REAL fun starts).

 

Soom is such a special case in my mind ... there really isn't anything to compare with how they structure their limited. Souldoll to some extent. Iplehouse to a wee extent, though they turn their limited into standards (excepting skin colour?). The thing about Soom is that it really isn't that difficult to pick up many of their limiteds aftermarket ... and if you wait long enough, for less than original cost. Such a deal I got on a Sphaler!

And it's true people will put off a standard doll to get a limited on their wish list, but if they're putting off an El to get a Rosen-Leid, that isn't doing much for Luts.

I wonder about making money on a limited release. Take 11 Bermann selling at $2000 each. $22,000. Look at what went into creating those dolls and their impressive fullsets. I really have a hard time believing Dollshe/Tensiya made a huge profit, not only because it wasn't much income to begin with (and yes, I know cost of living is different), but also because it had to last them across all the months it took to produce those 11 dolls. Sure, that's just one example, but I still wonder.

In the end, the people who make the big profits on limiteds are those who manage to catch the first resale wave ... the wave where a $2000 Bermann sells for over $6000. And the sad thing there is that the artists don't benefit from that financially at all.

We can't know the cost/benefit analysis of the limited situation compared to a standard issue, because we're not looking at the books. But I'm still inclined to think that over time, standard issues stand to generate a more sustainable income. And all the companies that are releasing stuff that pushes the design aesthetic in new directions more or less funded themselves initially through standard sales.

 

I tend to be against the idea of limited dolls simply because I'm not into 'exclusive' and don't believe rarity makes a doll special. At various times I've owned Beryl, Sard and Vesuvia and ended up selling them partly because it makes me nervous having a doll with such a high resale value. I've got two kids here and if anything happens to one of my dolls, I don't want to be upset because I've lost/damaged a limited doll that could partially fund a deposit on a new house. I like the new trend where companies do time limited rather than number limited because then people aren't racing to get the dolls before 10/15/20/50/100 sell out. It can make things difficult for people who enter the hobby after the dolls have been released but it also gives buyers a bit more time to save up for an unexpected purchase.

I don't think limited = bad or limited = good. I know that more often than not, I will steer away from limited offerings but there are times when it is nice to own something unique. However you can get that from a custom face-up just as easily as from a limited doll. That's where I'd rather spend my money now and support some local artists.