Doll Clothes and Accessories made from Fur and Leather

we aren't for one. the only people i've seen claim moral superiority to animals are the same ones who claim it against other humans.
secondly, just because we have a diffrent type of mind from other species does not remove us from the food chain. with very few exceptions, the human being is designed as an omnivorous animal, capable of comsuming both meat and veg, and require nutrients from both OR heavy suppliments.
and third, if god didnt want us to eat animals, he wouldnt have made them out of meat. (ok, joking on that one, but u get the idea)

 

I have no problem with using fur and leather. I prefer to use hides from animals that I know for a fact that humans eat, though, even though we can't be sure that particular animal was used as meat. It just seems a bit more ethical to me.
But I definitely wouldn't judge or shy away from someone who uses hides from animals kept only for their fur.

What I find astonishing is that people complaining about how animals are skinned alive and how much pain they are in (which, sadly, happens) don't consider how the animals may have it in the animal kingdom. Some predators operate with venom; they poison their prey and follow the animal closely over long distances. The poison seeps into the whole of the victim's body, probably burning a lot and keeping the animal in a lot of pain. It may take many, many hours before the poison has killed the animal, and the predator, which followed it, will consume it. Is that really a humane way to kill?
Predator birds have sharp claws, and their prey is caught alive, and kept in those sharp claws maybe over long distances. Don't you think that hurts too?
Not to mention all the bugs and smaller animals just one human footstep outside kills or wounds, and how people generally treat bugs.

And those are only a few of the long-lasting methods of killing, which animals have developed over time. Now, do you really think all the predators are superior to humans when it comes to ethics? 'Cause I sure as hell don't.

Also, it's not a given that the animals used in the human fur- and leather-industry are mistreated. Yes, you find it all over the internet, but does that really mean that the majority of the animals used for their furs or hides are mistreated? I'd like to think about it as I think about all the cruelty in the media; you hear about all the people who have been killed, but you don't hear about all the people who have survived another day. Couldn't it then be that while you hear about all the animals that are being mistreated, you do not hear about all the ones which are treated humanly?

Sorry about the long rant. I'll end it now.

 

Fourth: if that cow had opposable thumbs & a captive bolt gun, it would eat YOU in a New York minute. xD

Too ridiculous to bother discussing animals' morality; seen too many nature shows with stuff like chimps going on thrill-kill sprees, wolverines killing for sport, & baboons committing gang-rape. Even my friend's chihuahua is into non-con, & has to be restrained from trying to screw other/bigger dogs in the park while they're trying to sleep. Humans clearly don't have a monopoly on forcible savagery against one's fellows.

 

EXACTLY!!
But looking through the thread, there seems to be quite a couple calling the way humans treat "bred-for-their-hide"-animals for "disgusting" or the like, and as far as I could see, none of them took the animals' morality into question, so I figured it was worth pointing it out.

 

Sure!-- Certain types of people just seem to think that all animals have haloes; such folks need to be disabused of this overly-rosy worldview before they get into the pulpit & start preaching. Watching just a few of the right nature shows on PBS will do the trick fast. Some of the stuff animals do to each other wouldn't be out of place in a Tarantino movie. 'Morality' is too slippery a concept to rely on when trying to prove one's point about how one personally thinks humans ought to behave, either vs. themselves or vs. other species. It's just too subjective.

 

To be a vegan in this thread :/

Personally I don't touch anything made of fur and leather. I'm lucky, as a human, to have a choice not to fund an industry built on killing and skinning things and I exercise that choice .

 

We will not be 'naked or starving' without fur or industrially raised/processed meat in this day and age. Seriously? I am more than aware that nature is cruel and that most animals would do the same if they were in the humans' position of power. However, are people really using that as an excuse to continue their harmful actions? I am also aware that morality is considered a grey area, HOWEVER: What I am also aware of is that we have the mental capability and the choice, unlike many animals, to make the compassionate decision to not cause more suffering.

 

And you're sure a plant doesn't suffer when you cut it, cook it and eat it? Cos to my knowledge, there ARE studies that proof that plants can, on a very basic level, experience things like fear and pain.

So - compassion to animals but no compassion to plants?

As for me, I don't care whether it's real or fake fur or leather. Personally, if the leather's not too thick, I prefer it over fake leather cos I find it easier to handle. Same goes for fur. It can be hard to find the right kind of fake fur for a doll - the kind that doesn't look ridiculously "over-sized" or "out of proportion".

And I eat meat, too, even though I'm aware that the steak on my plate was once a cute little calf with biiiiiig brown eyes and didn't grow in a tree. But I'm more of a "humans first, then animals" kind of person. I find it really upsetting, actually, that there's people - way too many innocent little children among them - starving to death while some folks will get all worked up over the well-being of animals (who shouldn't be mistreated, either, don't get me wrong, but if we can't even pull ourselves together and manage to treat PEOPLE like people, then how are we ever gonna manage to treat animals properly?). Animals definitely aren't "the better humans". They're fellow creatures and should be treated with respect, just like our fellow humans. Sadly, I can't really see either of that happening anytime soon on a world-wide scale ...

 

Indeed! Plant cells have many of the same general organelles (nucleus, plastosomes, ER, golgi etc.) as an animal cell, even though there are certain differences. When something, concerning humans and animals, hurts, it's a neurological reaction to a (usually) extern impulse, in other words, its a sort of electrical signal or wave. The same kinds of electrical impulses have lately also been registered in plants, which should technically give them the same capacity to hurt as other living beings. Just because plants can't cry out like animals or humans, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel the exact same getting a knife stabbed through them as humans or animals. It's just not as thoroughly researched, and due to the absence of pained sounds, I do think it would be harder to measure.

Correctly enough, the plant's schlerenchyma cells are dead cells, but the plants also have other cells, which are pulsating with life, and we can't actually be sure that they don't make the plant capable of feeling pain.

 

I love Leather and Fur things. Look at the Tibetan mohair wigs; some of them are just down right awesome!
I prefer leather shoes/boots for myself and my dolls. There is nothing better than leather car seats....except they do get hot in the summer. And how about a fur or leather coat on a cold, windy, winter day on the North Shore of Chicago. I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

All of this!

The least we can do is to try and limit suffering. Meat and fur (and dairy for absolute certainty) is unnecessary to our survival. Ergo we should be making the choice to cease this unnecessary suffering and death.

 

As I said - plants can suffer, too, and they certainly do die when you cut them down. So "ending unnecessary suffering and death" isn't a valid argument contra fur, leather, meat and dairy as far as I'm concerned as long as the one bringing it up isn't also abstaining from eating plants.

And I'm absolutely "allergic" to vegans/vegetarians of the militant kind trying to tell me what I "should" do and trying to make me feel bad because I'm no vegan/vegetarian and don't I see how many poor, poor animals have to suffer because of me. It's that kind of holier-than-thou attitude that usually accomplishes only one thing: bring out the little kid in me and have me do the exact opposite of what they want me to do.

Now, if you simply don't like fur, leather, meat or dairy - fine with me. I don't like coffee, so I don't drink it. That's an argument I totally understand. But the "ending suffering and death" thing - nope. Cos plants - well, see above. (And I would swear any oath that my orchids actually grow more blossoms and are blooming longer when I talk to them ...)

 

Would you be insulted or shocked to see a doll wearing clothes made from animal byproduct (furs and leathers and such)?

I would be surprise, but not offended. There's a HUGE stigma these days over the use of animal product or byproduct, regardless of whether it is humane, green use or not.

Does it make a difference if the byproducts came from animals we eat (cows, rabbits, pigs, sheep, etc.)?

Yes and no. I would prefer that if there is going to be animal sourcing for materials, that it be from a renewable, sustainable, and humanely treated source. I'm also fine with full-use hunters of legally hunted animals. If someone shoots a squirrel out hunting, and uses all the squirrel, then the pelt and bones should certainly be made use of for something rather than wasted.

Sometimes people come across the steamer trunk of their great great aunt and her antique leopard fur coat....if someone can prove that a fur from an endangered animal is an upcycle, then I'm fine with it. I would rather the old products be re-used and re-purposed than someone going out and killing more. If there's no proof of upcycling, then the authorities should be notified. Poaching, illegal sourcing, and support of illegal action against protected species should have stopped years ago. It's mind boggling that its still a problem.


Would it make a difference if you bought the leather/fur from a crafts store (like Hobby Lobby or Michael's)?

Yes. I don't know where these big box stores buy their product, therefore they may not be supporting full-use, green farmers and furriers. I will not buy animal product from them, as they support money over eco-friendly philosophies.

Would it make a difference if you bought the byproduct straight from the distributor, whom you knew to use all parts of the animal?

Yes. I can find out from the distributor that they use all the parts, and how they treat their stock, therefore I would gladly buy from them.

 

Personally, the use of animal byproducts does not bother me at all. Personally I'd simply rather save the money to buy something else.

 

Wow. Are you seriously using this as an argument? That's almost humorous if I could be sure you weren't being serious. I will live my life doing the least amount of harm I can. I will survive off of those that do not have families, do not scream, do not think, do not have a sense of self, do not have nerves, do not have brains. This leaves eating plants as the lesser evil, if you will, the least amount of suffering. As for these "I wish people would worry more about the people being abused in this world than animals" comments, compassion is something that is not bounded to a certain species. If you are truly a compassionate person, it matters not whether the subject suffering is a rat or a chimp or human. If we cannot treat the lesser(in your view) animals with compassion, how do you expect one to care for a human? Plus, world hunger would be eliminated if we stopped the rate of meat consumption and used the land for our food instead of grain for our prey. So don't give me that while you're contributing to the human suffering you claim concerns you so very much.

 

First, I never said I was concerned in any way by human suffering. What I do is watch things, watch this world, watch how things are going and wish that humankind would finally go to heck in a handbasket cos that's probably the only way this planet can survive - without us. Because, imho, there's no way we humans are finally gonna learn. We've had thousands of years to learn. What did we learn? How to build better weapons so we can eliminate each other more easily. Right. I'm not really a big fan of humankind as a whole.

Second - see, you saying you want to cause as little damage as possible, THAT's something I can agree with. Cos it's totally illusory that anyone can live in this world without causing any damage at all. That's just not possible cos - well, you have to eat something, wear something, live somewhere, right? (Of course, "as little as possible" is also a point that can be argued about. Someone living in a hole in the woods without electricity and all the benefits of modern life probably still causes less damage than someone living in a big city ...) (Note: The way you put it in your other post, it sounded to me like "I cause no damage at all cos I don't eat meat and dairy products - there you go, evil meat-eaters." I'm sure you didn't mean it like that but that's how it got across to me.)

And as for the third point, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree there. You say how can we learn to treat other people with respect if we don't learn to treat animals right. I say it's the other way round: If we can't even treat members of OUR OWN species with respect, then how are we to accomplish that with members of what most people regard lesser beings?

If you want to take this debate any further, please PM me as it's really getting off-topic now, though.

 

>_> *coughs* And I thought I was the only "crazy" person who thought this way.

 

Dont have a problem with using fur or leather for dolls clothes etc. I just purchased some embossed leather scraps that I am hoping to turn into a long coat and matching boots for my hybrid elf.

 

I think it would be hypocritical of anyone who eats meat or uses any product with animal byproducts in (because lets face it, there are alot) to say fur and leather should never be used cause lets face it either way it's the destruction of a living creature for our own means.
And people always seem to forget that those lovely black shoes their wearing are made of leather- you know the skin of a cow- but no one seems to mind the use of leather so much. I mean leather sofas have come into fashion in a big way the last couple of years, yet I hear no outcry from the general public, infact everyone is jealous and saving for their very own 'in fashion' sofa. Yet if it it's the fur of a cute fluffy animal used for ANYTHING it's instantly seen as 'wrong' and 'cruel' :/
Im not too fussed either way on this debate- but come on people lets have a bit of consistency, or is it that cute fluffy animals are worth more in our minds than the poor cows and other less attractive animals Hmm?

 

Personally I love leather & fur, Mohair wigs are a form of fur, nothing really comes close to the soft texture.
As long as it is a by product why waste it.

Please not let this thread turn in to an animal rights forum?