Dolls that *aren't* for beginners?

I'm waiting on my first doll - Ojallin from Dollga/Leeke and she's pretty large. I'm excited and nervous... I have never handled a BJD before but heck I can't wait! I'm excited about changing her eyes, wig etc... I've read everything on BJD's more than twice and I'm confident that I'll be alright - I love learning and love doing things with my hands. I might mess up along the way, but hey, that's part of the fun!

 

I'm waiting on my first doll too. Luts Kid Delf, Bory. I fell in love with him and, even after I shopped around, he was still me fav. I don't think a msd sized doll would be that difficult to take care of for my first. But those more detailed 80cm ones... like the ones SOOM make, they are beautiful and I'm always looking at them for long periods of time, but they'd be too much work, don't you think? If you didn't know what you were doing.

 

Torren, is this about me, or is this a general commentary, because your tone and direction of your comments are getting personal. If there's something you want to say to me, take it to PM because no where in my posts have I been particularly critical of anyone. If your tone is just relating to your original post getting lost, I apologise for reading it wrongly.

I do think people should get the doll they want, but maybe a complicated doll wouldn't suit most beginners, not all of them but you know, the type of people who are too scared to change a pair of eyes at first. And as for stringing being not that hard, I know this, you know this. How do we know it? Because we've done it ourselves. A lot of new beginners pointedly avoid restringing until they absolutely have to because it does sound like a big job if you haven't done it before and have never seen someone else do it before.

And I'm not calling beginners lazy at all, Nefla. I was a beginner once too and I was scared of restringing because lots of tutorials recommended me using haemostatic clamps to keep the tension of the string, and if something calls for haemostats it sounds pretty extreme to me since it's a surgical instrument!! Putting something off because it sounds like something very difficult isn't lazy, it's just cautious for someone who has just bought a $300 doll and doesn't want to ruin it.

So, are you guys saying the only 'good' dolly owner is the person who buys a doll and dives straight in with stringing, face-ups etc? I have a few dolly friends and not many of them are that hands-on. Sewing and knitting for dolls is our creative outlet rather than modding, face-ups and stringing, so are we not as good as the people who do buy blank dolls?

 

Mabe they mean those who know what they are getting into before they actually get the doll? O.O

 

This is a very good point, and the exact reason it took me so long to do my first restringing. It isn't complicated, technical, or delicate. But it does require you to "break" that expensive doll you waited 4 months to get.

As far as complicated dolls go, I'm going to have to say the opposite: I would be wary about Bobobie/Resinsoul. Don't get me wrong. They're wonderful dolls. I love my Ju very much, and would happily purchase her again. But it took quite a bit of work to get her to pose correctly. That includes restringing multiple times, S-hooks/no S-hooks, sueding, and (eventually) wiring. All that work can be daunting for a beginner. More info here.

If you really want something more complicated (like a Soom MD) for your first doll, go for it! It's more likely to "just work" right out of the box. While I'm positive you'll have to restring it eventually, you'll have some time to get to know how the doll works before taking it apart.

 

I just don't like the way you seem to be generalizing all new people into one group. A new person doesn't neccesarily= a person who is nervous or afraid to do anything to their doll, and a long time owner doesn't necessarily=someone who has done it all and feels comfortable with doing everything. And nowhere did I say that not restringing or doing faceups is lazy. I said not bothering to do research was lazy. But ok, lets say for a minute that all new doll owners are afraid of damaging their doll, so they don't restring, do faceups, mods, blushing, etc...none of that stuff is even required in doll ownership. For those who don't want to do those things, the doll company(or a freelance customizer) will do it for them for a fee.

I'm just trying to defend the newbies here. If somone's dream doll is a Soom MD or something, I'd hate to see them pressured to get a doll they don't like as much because veteran doll owners think they can't handle it. I think the most complicated doll on the market right now is the new dollshe body, but even that can be figured out. If a person (even a newbie) takes it slow, and works with it, they will get to know its' kinks and such. Humans are smart creatures.

 

I agree with this. There are things about abjds that pose challenges (especially the first time you try and resting, or do a faceup, or sued etc), but there's a difference between a challenge and beat-your-head-against-the-wall-near-to-impossible. Nothing really requires a professional--all the various tweaking that gets done with dolls can be done by their owners, and there are some things a person can't get away from doing. All dolls eventually have to be restrung no matter if it's a Bobobie, a Volks, a CP, Souldoll, Dollshe etc. and the first time someone restrings is always going to be the first time whether they've had the doll for a day or a year. It helps to have a second pair of hands and some moral support, but there's no reason with all the resources available on-line that owners can't do it themselves.

Whether a new person feels they handle adding to the complexity by picking a doll that needs more tweaking straight off or has a more complicated stringing or jointing system is completely up to them. There is no right or wrong way--they have to read up on the doll and decide if it's for them. I don't think there's any way to categorize a particular doll as a beginner or advanced doll, since so much comes down to personal preference--some people might find doll A very easy to pose straight out of the box while others would completely disagree. Some people may be intimidated by more complicated jointing, while others aren't at all bothered by it.

While it's possible for people to have abjds and not get into the customization aspect of them, it's still what the dolls are intended for, and they all have a certain DIY quality to them that soon to be owners should be aware of.

 

Personally I think you should start this hobby with a doll you really want and is worth saving up and spening all that money on. So what if its a Soom Limited or something with complicated systems? I just think it would be rediculous if you ended up buying something you dont really want just because you are a "beginner" and people apparently tell you to get something simpler.

Den of Angels is full of people that would be willing to help if they are having trouble. I mean.. hey.. Im in this hobby for almost 2 years now and I still dont know how to restring a doll, or do a face up.. or whatever. And I am positive there are others like me out there. I have someone do it for me. So I dont really see the problem people are talking about .

 

Who is pressuring anyone in this thread to get a doll they're not interested in? A suggestion isn't a demand, nor is it a contract. If someone desperately wants that limited doll to be their first, they'll find a way to make it happen. It just so happens that the newbies I have the most experience with (in any hobby I've been a part of) are the people who aren't so keen on doing everything themselves from the word go, so that's the type of person I think of when I think of a complete beginner, so I'm tailoring my response to those people in particular. Neither am I the only person in this thread to have given this particular answer.

 

i went to my first doll meet before i actually had a doll, and i was terrified to handle other people's dolls, in case i broke them... my first doll was my 14cm catsy... i think that worked out terrifically-it got me used to the way BJDs moved and kicked and flopped before I got my first multi-pounder

 

^This. DoA is full of people who can help a newbie out and you can find many tutorials here. When I bought my first doll I had no idea how to restring him but a simple picture-tutorial on the site of Luts helped me out a lot.

 

But if a person who is "new" in the hobby, finds a "complicated" doll they want to buy as their first one, I imagine they are the type that has already done their research, looked around on other Doll sites, seen whats out there, and still have decided that they want that complicated one? They are just going to go for it anyway.

Lets remember, All Ball jointed dolls are still made out of Resin, they are all strung by Elastic, connected with hooks. If they are a newbie.. they are going to have just as much trouble restringing a dimple Delf or Dollzone as much as a Soom Limited or Souldoll Centaur.

I think most people in this hobby have done research or joined this forum or another before they bought their doll. Newbies might not want to do everything themselves off the bat, but that is what we are here for, Right? Regardless of the type of doll they got as their first, There will always be people to help them.

 

Regarding my tone, I'd actually like to ask if you'd be willing to reread it, throwing out the part of my original attempt crashing and the fact that i'd quoted you and bolded a few things i was responding to. I might be missing it, since I wrote it in the first place, but i'm honestly not seeing the hostility or personal comments in there, and I apologize if it comes off that way. (I'd also like to ask anyone else if they see that in my post too o_O;; ) I certainly did not mean any more than to state my opinion, respond to a few things that you had said, and perhaps use some sarcasm to get my points accross. The sarcasm could have been taken badly, but thats kinda why i labeled it as such ^^;;


Actually, after this post, i quite agree with you for the most part. There are a lot of people who are willing to dive right in and do everything they can right off. From changing eyes and taking off the head right down to restringing, faceuping, and sanding/modding, everythings game. Others get their doll and are scared to touch it. This is also regarding your reasoning for being afraid of restringing, and heamostatic clamps ( which i've never heard of btw. I'm looking that up now XD; ). I personally think a lot of the reason so many people are scared to do anything (right down to simple posing nd changing eyes) is because so much of the hobby is driven by the fourms and what people read here, which can often be scary sounding which can turn them away from trying things--Just like you said with restringing and how too many people make it out to be a big difficult job that takes five people to do (exaduration, of course XD) when in fact it can be quite simple and a one person job.

Also, i agree with Nefla. She never said you called all beginners lazy, nay, i believe she called some beginners lazy. (Which i did, too)(and forgive me if i missed something where she accused you of that) I agree with her statement that what a beginner is willing to do is up to their personality. Some people might be the crazy hands on type that wants to do a modded hybrid and do the faceup and everything on their first doll, and another might want one thats more simple, but i believe that its often aparent to these people what they prefer and that they'll be smart enough to go after what they wish to do. The person who likes things simple isnt going to make a five part hybrid as their first. They'll avoid it, and rightly so, and the people willing to dive into the deep end on the first try, so to speak, will do so.


Now, as clarification (at least on my part) I never said or intended to insinuate that only good owners jumped in full force, willing to mod and faceup right away. What i did insinuate was that "good" new owners are more along the lines of those willing to learn as much as they can and know what they're buying and everything thats possible with a bjd. Someone who gets their first doll and doesnt realize that the faceup didnt come with it, or the eyes or wig or clothes didnt come with it, who is too lazy (yes, lazy) to scroll down the page to read the specs or click away to read teh FAQ on a site? These are the ones that i believe you are referring to when you generalize "newbs", but they're not the only newbies out there. the "good" newbies are the ones who read the sales page/FAQ, and find something like DoA and read the information available.
--I just mean that theres a difference between informed and not informed, not completely hands-on and not. Whether you're willing to do your own faceup or not, the difference is knowing what a faceup is and that its not permanent rather than being willing or not to do it.



As a final note, perhaps it was my comment regarding your examle of the newbie who got an 'odd sized doll' and was dissapointed that you took as a personal attack, but i found that as a perfect example of the difference between newbies who are willing to know what they're buying before they spend however much it costs and newbies who buy on the impulse of "i want pretty things~"
-that, and it often sounded as if you were generalizing all newbies into one category of "lazy and uninformed," as you never seemed to make a distinction between the different sorts of newbies. I apologize if i misread anything and you in fact were. ^^

 

It was only because you went through my post, bolding specific parts when all I'd been saying were things that have already been said before by other people, it just seemed your comments were particularly directed at me rather than everyone else who has said similar things. I'm not the only person with a different view to the majority.

And the complete beginners I have experience with are the people who are scared of ruining this expensive, pretty doll by doing anything more than taking it out of the box, because those are the people I've got experience with, I didn't say that beginners were 'lazy and uninformed' at all, however, I also know that many people don't do any research whatsoever before getting their first doll too, so there's that kind of beginner too. Perhaps these people don't do research because they don't realise a BJD needs maintenance or they don't do research because they don't want to, not because they're particularly lazy individuals. Some people are researchers, some people aren't.

I've never actually met a complete new beginner who was so 'gung-ho' about their doll that they'd take on a disassembled, blank, eyeless, wigless doll and go it alone. I know those people are out there, but I figured that kind of newbie isn't likely to ask "which doll should I get because it's beginner friendly?", they're more likely to ask "which doll offers me the greatest challenge?" so why would they look at this particular thread? Comments like mine are of more help to the person who is on the fence between two beautiful dolls, one slightly more challenging than the other, and is wondering what kind of doll would suit their needs when all they want is a doll. The person who knows they love a challenge wouldn't need to read the pros-and-cons in a thread like this.

I only found DoA after I got my first doll, not before. So all the information here wasn't open to me at first. I didn't destroy my doll or put a sharpie to her face. The amount of new beginners with common sense far outstrips the amount of new beginners who won't know one end of a Super Dollfie from the other, I know this and nowhere did I say that new beginners are stupid and/or lazy

 

Yeah, but people really arent as stupid as you try to make them seem. Would'nt a $500 pricetag on something as a doll start ringing bells? That no, it wouldnt be wise to do the faceup of a doll with a sharpie?

Lets be completely honest here, because we all know it's true. People who dont realize, or neglect the fact that asian ball jointed dolls need as much attention as they do, are usually the people who go for the cheapest companies, and want a doll just to have one, so they go for the cheaper option. I am not saying everyone is like that, and Im not trying to give cheaper companies a bad name. But we have all seen it happen.

Anyone who would be willing to pay the amount that limited and complicated dolls cost, can realize that this isnt going to be easy.

If these people don't have acess to den of angels or some other kind informative sites that can help them, they probably also won't realize that they are getting a "complicated" doll, and they will also have no one to tell them that getting that for their first doll isn't a good idea. So I don't see the difference.

Ofcourse most newcomers are scared that they might damage their new doll. But thats where I come back to my original point, No matter what. A BJD is still a BJD. They would be just as scared of damaging their not so limited or expensive doll as a limited and expensive doll.

It really all does come down to the same problem if something were to happen to it. The only difference is they price they payed for it. If you didnt realize that you cant leave them standing alone unnatended, and they tumple off the table and break their nose off. It's not going to matter wether or not it was a limited doll. It still happend and your precious brand new doll just broke their nose off. Chances are same thing would have happend with a not limited or complicated doll.

 

Is this directed to me? I just said I haven't said that anyone is stupid or lazy. How about I direct your attention to the very part where I say this?;

 

May I ask what your first doll was? Chances are, that someone who didnt have acces to informative sites, other BJD owners and DoA, probably wouldnt have found those sites with the complicated dolls in the first place. They would have just stumbled across the more populair sites as DOD and Luts. And even if they did find other sites, and they have no realization of what the BJD community really is. Even though it says on the site that the doll they are about to purchase is special or Limited, if they dont realize that people in the BJD community are going to fight over it. So they won't take it as something special anyway, won't give it a second thought, and will just go for it.

And if they are really that uninformed about BJD's then they wont realize that you are ABLE to restring them.. or customize them.. if they truely havent been exposed to any information. Which I really do doubt.

When I came across the DOD site years ago. I didnt know that you could customize them. I didnt know you could change their wigs, their eyes etc. I didnt have the money at the time, but if I had the money, I would have just gotten one of their dolls away. Because I didnt know there was such a huge BJD community, there was no one to stop me, so I would have just bought it anyway. And you cant stop the people you dont know about because they arent in the community. Its most likely just going to happen anyway.

I completely see where your points are coming from, Jescissa. But if someone who has no information on BJD's, and is still getting one.. well, how can we stop that? Just like people werent able to tell you how to treat a BJD you when you got your first BJD before you joined DoA.

And the people who DO find this place before their first doll, they have the information, they have people to help. And then it will all work out.

 

I'm in the camp that says that there's no such thing as a doll that's not for beginners. It just depends on the person and what they feel that they are up for. My first doll was one of the Iplehouse EIDs, which I've seen mentioned a few times in this thread. I haven't had him that long either. I got him blank, and did my own face-up. Within a week or so I had taken him all apart and sanded, tightened, and restrung him. The restringing took maybe 30 minutes, tops. I didn't even have to open the little booklet they send with instructions to do it.

I've seen the restringing instructions for the new Dollshes, and it looks pretty easy and straight forward to me. I guess it all depends on how inclined you are to fiddiling with things. I would have no qualms about getting a pile of parts and having to put them together myself, actually I might prefer it.

 

I think it just all depends on the type of person and/or how much DIY work needs doing on the doll. Getting a doll that requires a lot of care like that may not be good for some beginners, but others could be really good naturally when it comes to that sort of thing. It just all depends, there's really no set doll for the entire newbie population that they shouldn't get because it'll very from person to person.

 

Haha, there's more debate going on here than in the debate subforum.

Yes there are the types of newbies that will be afraid to do things to their doll, and yes there will be the type of newbies that will dive right in, but what I keep trying to say, is that it has nothing to do with being new. It has everything to do with personality. Just replace the word "newbies" in that statement with "people" and it's far more accurate.

When I got my first doll (CP Yder) I ordered him blank, naked, and ordered eyes and a wig from separate places. Within my first week, I had unstrung him, stretched his leg elastic on a chair overnight, restrung him, bought approved faceup materials, made a fur wig he could wear until his arrived, and done a faceup. I didn't know anyone who had a bjd, or someone who could help me, but I found doing all those things to be remarkably easy. Did this have anything to do with the type of newbie I was? No. It has to do with the type of person I am. You have no idea what kind of personality or background a person has when comming into this hobby. I had been an artist for over 10 years. I knew how to sew already, and most importantly, I am a patient person and a logical thinker. We aren't just all brainless when we start out. If a sharpie is a permanent marker then gee wiz it's going to be permanently on my doll. You don't need years of doll experience to tell you that, or to put a doll back together the way you took it apart.

As for the whole research thing...I think if you DON'T research a $500 item you're buying for the first time it's just foolish.