Dolly androgyny -why do we like it?

I feel the same way about genderless dolls. Because these dolls are so expensive, I'm only going to have one for awhile and I want to dress hir in everything! I've found to love the genderless bodies, not because its flexibility in style, but I find the blur between male and female fascinating!

 

I also find the idea of two sexes in one (intersex, wraeththu) really interesting. I love meeting girls who can pass for boys and vice versa.

In London at the moment there is a move back to the androgenous party looks of the early 80s clubs like Taboo, and you will often find yourself dancing next to a ravishing sexy blonde girl in a lurex miniskirt and masklike glittery eye makeup, only to discover his name is David.

Personally I can't get enough of it.

 

I don't exactly know what to say cuz pretty much anything would be reiterating what other's have said but I definitely find this topic interesting. I all the androgynous dolls I've looked at, and I think I would veer towards that type if I ever get the money to own one. It's the same in other aspects of my life though. I'm just attracted to androgyny, I think it's more free. I would love to have characteristics of both genders..or rather be free from the traditional concept of gender.

 

This is a very interesting question. I am always confused by gender within sexuality. I do find the feminine curves of some dolls attractive, and the anatomical accuracy of the bodies is a major plus factor for me, but their androgyny is also important. In males it's necessary to have an androgynous face-sculpt because girls are prettier and (I think) more attractive. Doll shave always held that sort of appeal to me.

 

I hadn't seen anyone address this yet, and I remembered reading something similar a while back (I think in Discover magazine several years ago, but I can't be certain) so I decided to do a search. I found quite a few papers on it, mostly just abstracts are available online, but if you have access to a University Library, many have subscriptions to the services that allow you to read the full articles, or they may have archived journals. Basically what it boils down to is that several studies have shown that women prefer more "masculine" men at the point in their cycle when they are most likely to conceive, and more androgynous men at all other times. The extrapolation of this being that women tend to see more androgynous men as long-term partners who will stick around and help raise babies, but more masculine men as a more fit evolutionary choice for actually making those babies.

Article abstract links: Warning, may contain science and/or dry language
most recent, disagrees, full-text available
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First major study (?) Published in Nature. No abstract available, but might be available at a public library.
another one
too many links yet?
Somewhat pertinent to the discussion, and entertaining

Sometimes I PubMed. Mating habits of the male cabbage moth anyone?

 

That's really far out, Kaede-chan! Thank you much for all those links. Call me a sicko, but that's a relaxing evening's reading to me. ^^
Now I wonder how (if?) that ties in to people's doll choices: For those with very homogeneous-looking doll collections, do they really happen to shop at the same time every month? And what's up with those who own mix-and-match butch-and-femme collections, are their cycles out of synch with the moon phases? And what about people whose preference in men doesn't vary all month long, are they missing a chunk of endocrine something-or-other? Things to ponder.

Such theories are probably still 'off' as a sociological tool here, because the fact remains that some people really do prefer girlymen all month long, & some people like burly brutes all the time. Probably most peeps fall in a gray area, but I think we all probably know at least 1 chick who will still never touch a mesomorph with a ten-foot pole (not even during her Egg-Laying Days). Still, that doesn't make that study any less interesting or valid. Or any less far out, when those very real patterns do appear. Because it does make perfect sense, in an Animal Kingdom way: the biggest butchest alpha male monkey always gets the most girl monkeys in his harem. Everybody, sing it: "She blin-ded-me-with sciiii~ence (beep boop boooooop)..."

(BTW, yes, the material in those links does sound like Real Actual Science-- as oppposed to that hilariously crypto-fascist-right-wing pseudo-everything journal that said eating tofu while pregnant, or feeding the baby soymilk, will make your kid turn gay. [OK, it's not even veiled: the sidebar has an ad for Ann Coulter's book. XDD Dear god, won't somebody please poison that woman?] Give people one little fact like "estrogens can be found in plants", and they jump to all SORTS of conclusions that real science just won't bear out. Stuff like that is exactly why I question people's sources when they claim a Scientific Study proves something.)

 

because ppl are crazy...?
no, seriously i dont know. for the same kind of reason most girls are hysterical fangirls.....

 

I'm sure there's still quite a bit of individual variation where one woman's "more masculine than normal" is still quite a bit more effeminate than another's "girl-y man." It's also likely some women also display this vacillation in preference more markedly than others. I also wonder how much of a notable effect this would have once other factors are taken into consideration. For instance, and not applicable to dolls, there are studies showing mate choice to be linked to MHC. MHC is the major histocompatibility complex, or proteins on the surface of your cells that basically serve to tell your immune system what is "self" and what is "non-self" and what cells are infected. I find this very interesting because it is difficult for me to imagine how this would be relevant at all.

I think humans have also repeatedly proven we are fully capable of ignoring what would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. I've always wanted to try hang gliding, but I'm pretty sure jumping off cliffs is on evolution's "no-no" list.

As regards pseudoscience, it's always a good idea to question someone's sources. While I actually like Ann Coulter, she's a marvelously mean and funny woman, I think the right needs to do a better job of distancing itself from, for lack of a better term, kooks.

 

It's actually much simpler and older than you'd think. While I'm not bashing anime and manga as an influence here it is not the primary one. You do however have to remember that these dolls are Asian, and that Japan has been the artistic center of Asia for quite some time. In Japan beauty=feminine, has for over 400 years. A masculine person can certainly be attractive by Japanese standards but beauty is inherently feminine in Japanese culture. The Asian aesthetic also tends towards a more youthful appearance. This is an obvious mimic of real life (they think westerners look unusually mature) and probably has some base in the before-mentioned pop culture.

As for why people in general do or do not enjoy androgyny in dolls, I don't think there's a set answer. It probably has something to do with the way that all humans tend to prefer the feminine aesthetic early in life at the very root. Then you have personal upbringing, social influence, etc.

Personally I tend toward dolls with delicate sculpting and interesting faces. Having a "pretty" doll is nowhere near the top of my list. For that reason, most bjd sculpts are nice to look at, but ultimately unappealing on a personal level as I find them bland.
That was longer than I intended O_O

 

Rianne: ... so what are China and India, chopped liver? XD (I'm not trying to derail your argument, I'm just not entirely sure that Japan has played quite such a prominent role in dominating the art of Asia - especially when it's got a lot of competitors in the area.)

 

i would have to agree w/ Rianne.
just look at pictures from final fantasy VII games (newer not old school). Especially Cloud, Reno, or Zack. While their bodies are quite muscular their faces aren't very masculine.

 

...I don't think that quite accords with reality. Japan really isn't the artistic centre of Asia now, or across the last few centuries, if ever. Far more Asian countires look first to China or India, and are much more heavily influenced by Muslim and Chinese Buddhist, or even tradtions held over from the Byzantine, culture than by Japanese culture. Some of these countries have third sex traditions of their own, of course - witness the "girlboys of Bangkok" touring shows that actually quite seriously (but possibly over optimistically) try to spread awareness of third sexness in Western countries - but they're nothing to do with Japanese traditions. Asia is an awful lot bigger and more culturally diverse than merely Japan and Korea (which is heavily Chinese influenced anyway, as is Japanese art and culture) - what about Pakistan? Indonesia? Turkey? Kyrgyzstan? Brunei?

Now, if you were simply arguing that ball joint dolls were Japanese influenced, and anime influenced from that, it would be far more to the point. Japan has a famous tradition of innovative plastic toys, including abjds, after all.

 

Autumnrain, thank you for making my point more eloquently and inclusively.

 

Ah, my apologies for being unclear. I was speaking of popular art. China/India are of course the center of traditional artistic influence. I just thought it was obvious that these dolls don't fit into any traditional category, and that we were discussing East Asia as far as cultural influence is concerned. that is where these dolls come from.
So yes, I was most definitely speaking in a strictly pop-art sense. I've been a student of art with specific emphasis in Asian traditions for some time, so I never meant to belittle the traditional influences. The point was that these dolls are originally Japanese and thus influenced by that origin, which happens to view beauty as feminine. The other subjects are off topic which is why I ignored them.
Edit:
(had to go do something)
Anyway, my point, in keeping with the topic, is that the popularity of these dolls in East Asia makes absolute sense. With that in mind, if you consider the effect Japanese pop culture has had on the U.S. for the last 20 years it's not too strange that we'd find them appealing.
On a more basic level, androgyny really isn't unusual historically. Gender differences are cultural, it's something we make up. Once again, it just doesn't seem odd to me that we'd choose to, at least occasionally, get rid of some of those strict boundaries. Dolls are certainly an easy way to do it.

 

Personally I love androgyny in dolls for a fairly simple reason (oversimplified by this thread's standards); I prefer boy molds and have found it easier to bond with them, but I love blurring gender roles with cross-dressing, and it looks best on the androgynous dolls. I suppose I could attempt to wax poetic, but that's most of what there is to it.

 

*still searching for the perfect not so feminine boy mold but is failing somewhat terribly lol*
=| Adrogyny is ok in small dosages, makes it special, but if everyone in the world was adrogynous *in a fictional setting or a real one* That would be creepy and kind of weird.
hence BL manga tend to creep me out, everyone is girly, hardly any are actually females, and men cry over the trivialist of things.
Creepy. Not even women should cry that much.

 

I don't mind some androgyny, but I do like being able to tell the difference between male and female. It's a little annoying because I have a character that's suppose to be masculine and I haven't been able to find a doll that fits. And the one that are super masculine are ugly to me (Ark, Jace) and are to big.

Now I do have a feminie looking guy, but he's suppose to be super pretty so in that case it's fine. But if you want a masculine looking gu within in the 60cm-65cm range it's hard to find.

 

Another point to remember is that people's exposure to dolls outside of BJDs boils down to Barbies and other super girly dolls. Or at the other extreme GI Joe and Action Man. People look at a very slightly feminine boy sculpt and because it's not a super butch face like GI Joe they class it as a female. People's perception of dolls is very prejudiced towards expecting a doll to be female unless it is a musclebound stubbled Action Man. Therefore our cultural upbringing effects people's judgement.

A possible way of explaining this - if you show someone a slightly girlish doll they may well say "Oh what a pretty girl." But if you showed them a picture of the face sculpt on it's own (without the body) where the face looks quite realistic they may well say "That's a hot looking guy." The context makes a big difference. In the first they are looking at a doll, in the second they are looking at a picture of a face, not a picture of a doll.

For myself I only have girls and I can't see myself buying a male doll, androgenous or otherwise. I just prefer to dress up girls, however I do like the idea of having a tomboyish girl.

 

I love androgyny as long as it is still realistic.... I wanna do a double take and think "Whoa that looks sooo real..."

 

I wouldn't equate 'androgyny' with 'fantasy' in terms of something you don't see in real life. I've seen plenty of guys who are prettier/girlier than I am, and some of them were not in drag at the time.

I'm quite fond of the look, myself. I wouldn't try to cram its appeal down anyone's throat, hey, not everybody's bag, but I love it. I've pulled it off once myself (although I was younger and less *cough* developed at the time) and had a woman who actually knew me mistake me at first for a guy. But I totally digress.

One of my planned dolls is androgynous because that's his look, it's an aesthetic he enjoys, and he doesn't really care about assigned gender roles. Another planned doll is completely NOT androgynous, sticking to clearly defined menswear, a face-up with moustache, his character's wish to be perceived as a manly man's man. A third is not androgynous so much as sexless-- he doesn't look girly at all (though he does look young), but he's not human and doesn't have the *cough* bits, shall we say (modding them off is going to be a pain...)

My whole planned family is kind of a mixed bag, falling everywhere on the spectrum of sexual politics and preferences. I love androgyny, not just because the look is attractive to me, but because to me it's freeing. I don't like the whole 'pink is for girls, blue is for boys' thing, I positively foam at the mouth at gender specific playthings, and my whole life I have found it difficult to reconcile these two parts of me, sort of half-tomboy, half... maybe not 'girly' girl, but half not-a-tomboy at any rate. The androgyny thing is so apart from these seperations and allows me to embrace both sides without feeling bad about either. My boy can be a total fashion-obsessed diva and then go out and climb trees and play football, my girl can forego makeup and fripperies one day and doll herself up the next, and neither one seems out-of-character, it's just a different side of one androgynous coin.

=^__^=
Anneko