Dolly Cross-Dressing

I think you're missing the point pretty drastically here. This is nothing to do with my wanting to own a cute outfit and a great deal more to do with the fact that SOME (out of 20, they number 2) of the characters my dolls represent, which I've spent many happy years creating, happen to crossdress. The inherent fact of the matter is that they are MALE, so it's about as far from a matter of "finding a girl to slap it on" as it's possible to get.

Dressing a male in feminine clothing confuses you because society on the whole seems to believe that an item of clothing represents gender, but what you're simply not grasping at the moment is that a fair number of us with cross dressing characters dress our dolls in this manner because it's a non issue to us. Clothing is clothing, if the character is happier in a dress than a pair of trousers, why should we conform to a set of standards that we don't agree with simply because it confuses people?

Perhaps we enjoy confusing people, perhaps we just don't really give a toss what other people think, or perhaps, and this is certainly true for me, dressing my feminine boys in obviously male clothing would look utterly ridiculous and in the end, make me far less happy in my hobby than dressing them in the things that suit their characters and my aesthetic tastes.

I'm not even touching the crossdressing=gay thing because really, that's just a painfully naïve view I can only imagine stems from a serious ignorance of the topic in hand.

 

Lorti, it's exactly as LuLu just stated (for me personally anyway), in that if I have a cross-dressing dolls and it's because his character happens to be a cross-dresser, it would definitly NOT be the same if I just decided to turn him into a girl instead. His entire story, his entire life would be drastically different because his sex would alter many important aspects of how his (her) peronality was formed and in essence that character would not even be that character anymore. He would become someone entirely new, a character I wouldn't have the same relationship with and even want to put into doll form in the first place. Changing the doll from a male to a female entirely changes how I relate to that doll and its character, and if I felt required to have only a girl doll wear feminine clothing then I'm pretty sure I'd end up with a doll I only felt halfway-connected to.

Of course this is just from my own view as someone who creates elaborate backstories and personalities for her dolls (though obviously by others' posts there are LOTS of other who do this and feel similarly), but I am sure there are plenty of other reasons as to why a "simple" sex change for a doll in order to wear certain clothing is not so simple at all.

 

a] is it unethical/wrong to picture "underage" (that means 21 for me) dolls cross-dressing?
I honestly don't feel that it is, I mean its not particularly inappropriate in anyway that I can see...


b] when cross dressing how far does one go? Does one leave it to feminine clothing/face-up? or does one go all the way?
Honestly, I think that's up to you. If you want to have a crossdressed boy doll decked out like a lolita girl, then that's what you want. Personally, my boys are all under age going by your limit of 21 (because I am) and while they don't exactly cross dress, two of them are prone to wearing effeminate clothing. These two also have somewhat girly faceups- not uber much or anything, but definitely not totally masculine.

c] Is it wrong to post pictures of your cross-dressers?
Don't see why it would be unless, as has been stated many times before- those pictures are of a highly sexual or discomfiting nature.

 

I see nothing wrong with cross dressing dolls of any age or to any extreme. I mean as long as your not dressing the childlike dolls provocatively then I don't see a problem. I also don't know why someone shouldn't post pictures of their cross dressing doll. I don't think it's wrong. Humans cross dress so why shouldn't dolls?

 

a] is it unethical/wrong to picture "underage" (that means 21 for me) dolls cross-dressing?
No, not at all. I don't see what would be wrong with cross-dressing in the first place. I'm about 19 and I've been wearing boy clothes(I'm a girl) just about my entire life, and I've been crosplaying since Jr. High. Nothing weird or unethical there, just a personal choice. I know true cross-dressing is a more complicated subject, but if a character likes to cross-dress, then let them cross-dress. The only problem is what others have stated before, when the cross-dressing occurs in a highly sexual situation with a minor(in your case under 21).

b] when cross dressing how far does one go? Does one leave it to feminine clothing/face-up? or does one go all the way?
It depends entirely on the character. Some only wear dresses occasionally, while some cross-dress 24-7.

c] Is it wrong to post pictures of your cross-dressers?
Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with cross-dressing. Only if it involves a highly sexual situation should pictures be moved to some more private site.

 

So...why the different standards?

 

What you and others are not getting is that it is not about wanting pretty clothes, or not just about that. It is about having male characters who like dressing in female clothes, or females who like dressing in male clothes. It is about having a character who has the desire to dress in the opposite gender's clothes for whatever reason each individual might have, and it has little if anything to do with sexuality. That's actually my biggest issue with this whole thing-all the people who think that just because their character is gay he's got to be a crossdresser, or that all crossdressers are gay. That is so far from the truth it isn't funny.
There is a world of difference between having a female character and having a male character who like wearing pretty dresses. It would be completely changing/destroying a character to change his/her sex just so it would be "okay" for him/her to wear certain clothing. You can't just say "well you should get a girl doll if you want something to put in pretty outfits" without understanding that a lot of us see our dolls as characters, not just pretty pieces of resin sitting on the shelf, and we relate to them as such.
I don't think there's anything wrong with crossdressing dolls or photographing "underaged" dolls in clothing of the opposite gender. Honestly, I'm one of those people to whom clothing is clothing and doesn't really matter, so I've been scratching my head about the existance of such an issue from the beginning. I can't figure out why anyone could possibly care about what a doll that isn't theirs is or isn't wearing and whether or not it corresponds to some pre-set gender role that said doll's character may or may not adhere to.

AndI have to agree with trisana:Why the different standards? How much difference is there, really, between a boy in pink and a boy in a pink dress? He's already in a colour that is traditionally feminine, why is it so WTF inducing to take it one step farther and make the pink garment a dress?

 

I completely agree with what InkyBear is saying, although my situation may be on the other side of the spectrum. ^^

My Beryl may be physically female [Super Gem boobs, heh, quite obviously xD] but ever since she arrived, she's definitely given me a more masculine vibe, more so then I could have ever planned for! The first thing I dressed her in was cute lingerie set...and I knew IMMEDIATELY it wasn't suiting her character at all. Now she wears only SD13 BOY clothing, and in my opinion, girl or otherwise, it suits her perfectly. Sure I've played around, putting her head on my roommate's boy SDF's body...but still, no, that is NOT my doll, and NOT her character. Evarique is a mannish girl who wears only men's clothing; I wouldn't have her any other way, whether that be a girly-girl or an actual male.

What InkyBear is saying is right; to so many, our dolls are more than just meant to be perceived as vessels to wear and display clothing we find "cute", "sexy", or "attractive". If that WERE the sole purpose of this hobby, the collecting and displaying of clothes we like, then YES, why not get girl dolls to wear clothes made for girls and boy dolls to wear clothes made for boys? It would certainly make those "cute" clothes fit a whole lot better. But, collectively, it's not so much about the clothes, as it is about the dolls.
Those dolls [for many] represent characters greater than the sum of their outward appearence. Clothes can be changed on a whim, concrete characters and even a doll's physical sex...well, that takes more consideration. Whether you view the crossdressing of the doll as cliche or whatever is irrelevant; the character behind those clothes means something to the owner, and whether you as the viewer can see it or not, the reasoning, love, and importance of that character to the owner just the way they are, the way the were created, is there.
So be it a boy doll in ribbons and lace, or someone like my girl doll in suits and ties, really, it's not always just because someone wanted that outfit and needed someone to "slap it on". :P Characterization can play a large role.

I just don't see it ethically wrong with dolly crossdressing, be it boys as girls, or girls as boys. You know what I do see as somewhat ethically wrong? That we as a society are still hung up on clothing defining gender roles. You think we'd be over such medieval thinking by now.

And honestly, they're dolls. Dolls!!What does the difference in dolly sex really amount to? Slabs of resins in different places. Characterization and the owner's assigning of personality does the rest.

 

A: no it's not it's a doll you can do what ever you whant with your doll and i know boys that love to be dressed in dresses and skirts

B: i dont think a doll neds to do cross dres just because it looks like it could. it's up to the owner to dress there dolls in what they want to.

C: No it's not is't for enyoyment of your self and others and if you whant to post them do.

 

a] is it unethical/wrong to picture "underage" (that means 21 for me) dolls cross-dressing?
small remark here - for me "underage" based on my cultural and national background is under 16 (just to avoid misunderstanding)

I dont see anything wrong in cross-dressing. Often we buy a doll to do it, tho. X-dressing is fun, for people and dolls alike. And I dont see any violation of ethic either.

b] when cross dressing how far does one go? Does one leave it to feminine clothing/face-up? or does one go all the way?
As for my dolls I would avoid feminine face-up. I want them to be boys.

c] Is it wrong to post pictures of your cross-dressers?

From my point of view nothing wrong about it. Why should it be?

Surely if we face a question of quality and and if it is beautifully done or just plane ugly ... its another esthetical point.

 

The character for the doll that I have coming loves frilly little dresses. He's his race's equivalent of 5. =P

I've never personally viewed crossdressing as a point of ethical debate. The clothes a person (or doll) wears doesn't define who they are or what they believe in. It's up to the owner what their doll wears. If those who just like their boys in drag choose do it, great. And a character for a doll happens to like wearing the opposite gender's clothing, there's nothing wrong with that either.

Those who don't like it don't have to look. ^_^ Same as any other doll customization.

 

a] is it unethical/wrong to picture "underage" (that means 21 for me) dolls cross-dressing?

i think it's fine; my girl is supposed to be 15 this year but i dress her up in boy clothes =) she looks cute either way.

b] when cross dressing how far does one go? Does one leave it to feminine clothing/face-up? or does one go all the way?

by "one" i would assume that you're referring to the person answering these questions and in this case me.

I... Wouldn't let my boy wear girly clothes, let alone get a girly faceup. My girl's a little different but she would look the same, really.

c] Is it wrong to post pictures of your cross-dressers?

i think it's fine =)

 

I think there is nothing wrong in dolls cross-dressing if it look nice.

 

In some cases it's hard to tell a male face from a female face - they all have such a delicate look. So if the dolls face could "pass" for the other gender, I can't see any reason not to put a dress on a guy or a suit on a gal. If the look pleases you, go for it. I'm looking for a doll that will be a flat chested tomboy, old enough to have boobs but as yet undeveloped. I may wind up using a boy doll just to get the right look, but I'm not going to tear myself up over knowing that under her feminine-yet-rough-and-tumble outfit there's something that doesn't belong.

 

To some the wave of cross dressing, pretty boys, homoerotica etc. that has been on for some time now, may be just a cheap fad, but to some these fads may become something more along the way. Some just forget them as time goes, but some find that they actually like these things due to the popularization, and dare to start expressing themselves.

Yes, I agree that it looks like only a fad at times, but as crossdressing is going to be major part of my first dolls character, I've got to say something to counter this "fad" argument : ) I don't feel like jumping to bandwagon with having a cross dressing male doll, since to me it's different thing than to someone else. Cross dressing (either self, the doll, or just liking people that do it) can either mean different thing for everyone or not mean anything at all, so I don't think it's proper to call everyone with this tendency a fad'ists, but I don't believe that was your point anyway : ) It's different for everyone, for me it's playing out a fantasy I don't dare to bring to reality any other way.

Back to the actual topic: I don't think there's anything wrong with cross dressing a doll. Even if it's clearly a boy doll that is intentionally put into girls clothing as a boy, and even if it's in "nonconsensual" way and with a doll that looks and is depicted as underage, it's still just fiction and no one actually gets hurt. Yet there are laws that prohibit some of this stuff being spread (for good reasons), and those who do not wish to see this sort of fiction, so people should keep it to themselves or share it somewhere where it's allowed and people are aware what they are going to see and willing to view it.

Like I mentioned, cross dressing will be big part of my first doll character. He will be seen in clothing intended for women, with somewhat feminine face-up and story-wise he will even be made to act like a woman in some cases. Yet I still want it to be clear that the doll and it's character are male. It's not going to be male-shaped doll made female, it's gonna be male-shaped male doll dressing and acting like female.

 

Just a little something for you to consider; If you want it to be clear that the doll is male, how will you achieve this if he has a feminine face-up, wears feminine clothing and acts in a feminine style? How is someone else supposed to know he identifies as a male when these key gender markers are misleading? And how will you react when someone makes the inevitable mistake of calling him a girl?

This isn't a criticism, it's genuine curiosity. The world of cross-dressing can be a minefield for humans, I've known of a female drag artist so adept at mimicking a masculine style that people genuinely don't know she is female, I've also known boys who are so androgynous that they have been mistaken for girls. There is nothing wrong with cross-dressing, but there is something wrong with the attitude that other people should instantly know that the doll is a cross-dressing male under all the frou-frou and glitter. I'm not saying that you have this attitude, but even on this forum there have been owners of cross-dressing male dolls sneering that people accidentally called their dolls girls and those people 'should have known better'.

 

I have grown up in the Castro neighborhood of San Francisco. My dad is a homosexual and we have lived in a predominently gay area since I was very small. I know many cross-dressers/transexuals/transgenders, etc. I feel I have a better understanding of them because of my upbringing than, say, the self-proclaimed "otaku" wishing to create a sexually devious, girly-boy doll.

I find it irritating and offensive that most of these "cross-derssers" are, in fact, sexually devious. And promiscuous. Because someone is a homosexual never means that they are easier to get with than anyone else; I find it rude that the majority of these dolls are so. No finger pointing, it's just how it is.

My OC-turned-doll has a feminine style, girly hair, a Delf body (aka a girly body without breasts). He has reasons for being this way, and it is not a shocker that anyone should mistake him for a girl. Frilly skirts and pale sweaters are what he likes, and thus the response. He is not sexually free, he looks poorly upon such behavior, etc.

Basically, no finger-pointing but people need to be more aware of this. I find your obligatory-gay doll to have a shallow character-plan. That and people like me who have heart and soul bonds with the people I have been so fortunate to have in my life... it hurts that the general idea is promiscuity and sexual abandon.

 

Many of the male dolls look very feminine as it is, but I think I've picked up a doll that has somewhat manliness to it's features (still very androgynous but at least Mars has a chin!). I hope I can make him appear as a cross dressing male even with feminine face-up, this is a challenge for me : ) Yet if I fail at that, in picture collages I'm intending to show, and in case of a photostory mention his real gender as well, by showing naked chest, or reveal it it via storytelling etc. If someone doesn't bother reading and just wants to look at the pictures and then mistakes him for a girl, I won't mind (this could actually be part of the fun for myself), or at least I won't go nuts over that.

At some point I wish to make typical Chinese opera female-character look on him (pic), and at that point it doesn't really matter if he looks completely female, since those performers definitely do, and they're usually men. They're meant to have completely female appearance and movement, yet via the background information the audience knows the truth about their gender. Sort of the same what I aim at. Overall I'm intending to do crossdressing like the mentioned Chinese opera performer-look, where the crossdresser might pass as woman all the way, but little hints (like facial structure) and general knowledge (that the performers are mostly men) give away the characters real gender. Of course not everyone is aware of this "general knowledge", and that's why I'm intending to tell it in the photostory or introduction I put before the pictures.

It could also work if I "fooled" the audience by making him appear as completely female, and then make a "shock" revelation at some point (of course it would be spoiled beforehand due to warning tags but still). I need to think about different possible ways of storytelling to bring out the sides of the doll that I want, the way I want, but that's what I look forward to do : )

I haven't had people in my life, like you have, who really do crossdress, bend the traditional gender roles and so on, but I sort of understand what you mean. I've experienced gender-instability (if you could call it that) myself, and explored gender bending via roleplay, I'm not saying it's the same as actually doing it or knowing real people that do it, but I do involve real feelings in that play, and put a lot of thought into finding the reason why I enjoy making my characters do it. I think I'm reflecting my own (partly unknown) feelings to my characters, and as a way of such self-expression, I do not find myself having an "obligatory-gay" doll. Rather a "toy" to play and along the way explore my own gender identity with. That could be a shallow character-plan in someone's opinion, but to me it personally seems pretty deep; my dolls personality is partly based on my feelings towards crossdressing, feminization and related things.

I know you didn't point a finger at me there, just wanted to tell what thoughts your comment arose in me : ) And is that Graverobber in your avatar? : D

 

doubleabuse, thanks for answering my questions Your character sounds quite interesting to me and I do think that Iplehouse Mars is a more masculine-looking doll than, say, a CP El!

As I said before, I don't find cross-dressing itself particularly offensive or even meaningful for me. I accept that people choose to cross-dress their dolls and I couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. I don't see a moral argument against cross-dressing a doll, since a doll is an inanimate object and won't care whether it's dressed or not, never mind what it is dressed in!

What I find annoying is the attitude that some people who cross-dress their dolls have, that anyone who mistakes their doll's gender is an imbecile. I'm glad you said that if someone mistook your doll's gender you'd take it lightly, because it is a light subject. It certainly isn't the life or death situation some people make it out to be!

When someone complimented my female doll dressed in a female style by calling her a 'boy', I didn't react in an offended way, but I was frustrated. I wouldn't like it to become the norm in this hobby to refer to all feminine dolls as 'he' just in case the doll happens to be owned by an easily offended cross-dressing fan. It should be the rudeness of the owners that is stamped out, not accomodated by everyone else.

That's another character-based topic to consider, rather than wholly a cross-dressing one. There are some cross-dressing dolls on DoA who are 'innocent' in character and are not sexual deviants. They're naive characters who dress a certain way because they want to and/or in their story, dressing up as a female allows them to continue living a certain way to avoid sexual promiscuity.

I tend to avoid the m/m relationships depicted here (f/m and f/f are much more interesting to me), so I can't argue for or against your point that "gay dolls = promiscuous dolls". From what little I've seen there has been a mix.

 

Regardless of your upbringing, I think everyone needs to be brought up with an awareness to how some people choose to live. Like you said, I know people can be at least kind about the issue despite even what their parents might have taught them/ the media might have preached, etc. When I was younger I had my own questions regarding the ties that bind of gender vs. sexuality; many of them linger, and may continue to do so. One of my characters could possibly be classified as a "what-if" alter ego type of persona. He reflects parts of my personality, but from a male perspective.

The way you have articulated and composed yourself, I feel like nothing about your character could be obligatory. I think most people know what I mean about the "faddy" cross-dressing or fem-boys. As an artist, these dolls are just another manifestation of my questioning nature -- why does "A" of "This" gender want to wear clothes like "B" of "That" gender?

And yes, good eye on my avatar.

Exactly, I think people associate dressing differently than the mold describes as something being different about the person/doll/character. This also goes back to what Lulu was saying about how the clothes don't make the person. From what I've seen, a lot of collectors put so much more effort into the appearance of a doll than any personality or story. Buying clothes and a wig takes less thought sometimes.

Also, it isn't so much on DoA that the devious and stereotypical gay boys show up (but I get tired of seeing every single El depicted as such), but it makes up a lot of the BJD content on deviantArt. Just an observation I've made, I'd like people to have a better reason for a homosexual character than a feminine mold. They are such a fad, I think is why M/F or F/F relationships are more interesting! They are less common, which is odd. Hm.