Dolly Cross-Dressing

the only concern i personally have with crossdressing dolls is that it is terribly overdone... a manly-man doll is as rare as... as a manly-man doll on the DOA forums ^.^ but if its your own 600$ chunk of resin you can paint it and dress it however you want, and stuff whoever doesnt like it or find it offensive or uncreative. its YOUR doll

 

i believe it was to be punishable by death, but thats just me going from memory, im not pulling out the old bible over here or anything... i know what part of the bible you are talking about, its a huge list of sins that earned you the right to be stoned (including big ones like homosexuality and going to the specific and seemingly bizarre like bestiaity, though it covered non-sexual things too, the sex stuff was more interesting and the part i remember lol)

 

It's Leviticus, and it's irrelevent because Leviticus was strictly a set of rules written by men - and was strictly only a set of rules to live by for a people in a time and place where hygiene was frequently poor and certain meats had to be avoided simply because they would be spoiled or tainted. Simply telling people "If you eat seafood you'll get ill!" wasn't enough, but by making it prohibited religiously it had the same effect - people no longer died of food poisoning because they'd eaten tainted seafood. The prohibitions against masturbation and homosexuality were due to the fact the Hebrews were a nomadic people living in frequently hostile territory and they needed to increase their numbers - so if a man was not having sex with a woman, he wasn't procreating and increasing their numbers. Leviticus was concerned with purity codes to keep the Hebrews separate from the Canaanites, and as Jesus rejected the whole purity code they are no longer relevant except perhaps as a record of how the Hebrews once lived.

If you look elsewher in the Bible, there's quite a lot of "closet homosxuality" going on - just look at David and Jonathan in the Book of Samuel! And what about all those mentions in the Gospel of John about "the disciple whom Jesus loved"?

Which is pretty much entirely off-topic in a debate on dolls, but I thought I'd just throw in my tuppence on that argument anyway as a former Sunday School teacher.

As for the ethics of crossdressing dolls, quite frankly ethics do not come into it, and there is no "right" or "wrong" about it. They are not people (even if they can seem pretty life-like and we may sometimes act as though they are! ), so ethics do not come into it. Crossdress your dolls all you like; if someone doesn't like crossdressing, they're free not to look! But no-one has the right to tell you you are wrong to crossdress your dolls.

(And FWIW, I have stuck my Hound Marius in skirts or dresses on mor than one occasion! )

 

:: applauds Arkady ::
Too true. I can't see why someone would reject a perfectly PRACTICAL, normal, visibly based on science commandment like not eating pork at risk of trichinosis, and cling to one as visibly... odd as 'men wear pants, ladies wear dresses'.

It's a doll, it's not a person. It doesn't have a morality.

 

a] is it unethical/wrong to picture "underage" (that means 21 for me) dolls cross-dressing?
No its not wrong,I just wouldnt do it.

b] when cross dressing how far does one go? Does one leave it to feminine clothing/face-up? or does one go all the way?
i dont have any dolls, but if i get a guy, i dont want him to be a "lady boy" as my brother would call them.I wouldnt want to let them have mega long womanly hair, or mega-lashes or hot pink lipstick and eyeliner.
If i was looking for a particular look [probably scene/emo] then a little eyeliner would be acceptable, but nothing more.

c] Is it wrong to post pictures of your cross-dressers?
No--If people like cross dressing dolls, then let them post it. Other people like it too.
I would just never do it.

 

I think it depends on the doll, and such. I see nothing wrong with it. Let them be who they are. ^_^

 

[And what about all those mentions in the Gospel of John about "the disciple whom Jesus loved"? ]


Off topic, but be careful with that statement. It's said Jesus loved everyone, as is repeated as well. You're taking many things too literally, and with underlying statements pretty much pushing a fine line in my opinion. I felt I had to add that there since I raised an eyebrow.

But yes, this is off-topic.

Back on topic, I really don't care if a doll cross-dresses or not. It's your doll, so whatever. But that doesn't stop me from rolling my eyes since it's been done to death- it's really rare to find a doll that actually does it because of a certain factor that is well explained. Usually I find it's the whole 'yaoi' thing that's popular, rather than actually basing a solid story about the reason and what not.

But it's your choice. It's just nice to see a masculine doll for a change, but if you want to stick a Hound in a dress, no one can really stop you. They may avoid your pictures and doll, but it's your ultimate decision.

 

Wow, there is so much generalizing going on here...

Male dolls with traditionally-masculine styles are utterly not rare here on DOA. I see them every day, in random Gallery clicks. You've all probably been looking at them yourselves, too, without really registering them as "Normal And Manly[tm]". This is because the casual gallery-sights that more often stick in your mind are the really vivid things: "oh christ, that boy's in a miniskirt", "big butch legs in fishnets?!", "look, a sequinned halter top", "whoa, boychild in pink barrettes", etc. Then, after you recover, maybe you see 2 of them in a row. Et voila: Next thing you know, your mind has added 2 + 2, and come up with 67.

This is how generalizations are born. And generalizations are bad, m'kay?

 

One of the reasons I have such a great love for Volks clothing is that it's one of the few places I can find a wealth of boyish clothing for boys. I can't think of another company off the top of my head that sells mostly plain, boyish jeans and t-shirts and nice suits.

Well, alright, I guess Iplehouse does too XD

But the point is - look at what Luts and Dollmore and Dream of Doll are selling. There's a lot of goth/punk/j-rock/bordering-on-effeminate clothing going on. There are even rare instances of very female clothing being made for boys - i.e. this set from Luts.

So I think that says something about the prevalence of non-traditional clothing for boys in this hobby. And I'm not saying this is bad! I had a skirt-wearing boy not so long ago. It's just an observation. And someone probably already made it, but I sort of skimmed most of this thread and might've missed it :B

 

Though I may not have a cross-dresser, knowing myself I will one day.

I don't think there is anything with underage cross-dressing, I see it like this.
A mother who has a little boy, but the boy is just so adorable that you end up dressing him up in girl clothes just because he looks so cute and you just wanted to make him cuter. That is how I see.
Well I have to say. I wouldn't take to the point where I would make them where where a bra or such. Only to the point where thay have a feminine face-up and where the clothing. Though you also have to think about the boyish girls too. And again, give them a masculine face-up and let them where the boy's clothing, but let them stay in the correct underwear.
There is nothing wrong with posting pictures of your cross-dressing kids! You should have the right to post any pictures with your kids him them, well only if they are still following the rules...but that is not the point. Saying that you can't post pictures of them because they are cross-dressing is like saying you can post your couples or anything along those lines!
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I don't think we paid $XXX amount of money for our dolls to have someone tell us what we can and can't dress them in. I'm not implying that OP has said anything about what we should or shouldn't be putting them in, but I do find these threads kind of numerous around here--The ones that address Cross-dressing that is. .

Anyway, I don't think it's wrong to cross dress as long as you do it to fit the doll's character. If the doll looks weird as a male dress him female, I don't really care. As long as it isn't obvious that Ken's in Barbie's sundress, making it look awkward, with you (figuratively) spamming him everywhere saying: "OMFG LUUUK CROSS DRESS HOUND IZ IN SKRITZZZZZ!!!!1!11eleven" I don't see a problem with it. If it's supposed to look like Ken's in Barbie's dress, and that's just his character then yay. You're not doing it for "shock" value, you're doing it because that's his character and that is fine, and none of my business.

I suppose my stand on it is that, as long as it is YOUR doll then you can do whatever to it. Send it down the garbage disposal if you want to, then post pictures. Just don't take my doll and stick him in cross dress (or send him down the garbage disposal XD).

Is it wrong to post cross dressed children? Nah, it isn't. Children look androgynous until puberty anyway, so what's the big deal? If an owner wants to take pictures of their child resembling dolls in cross dress for sexual appeal, it isn't my business. I didn't pay for the doll. They did. They can do whatever they want, I just won't look.

How far does cross-dressing go? As far as the character permits it to go. I don't see how there are any rules or guidelines for cross dressing. *shrug* If it's in the character for it to go so far as bra stuffing or underwear stuffing (in the case of it being a female doll looking male) go for it.

Is it wrong to post pictures? Why would it be? You post the pictures because you want to show off your creation. You have every right to post pictures of your doll, just like they do. Even if your doll is in cross dress, as long as you are obeying the rules of the place that you are posting the pictures in, I don't see where it could be wrong in the least bit.

 

Okay, just posting to say first, I don't honestly care what anyone does with their own doll, really, but I don't like this example at all.

First, it doesn't take into account how the child feels. It's putting a gender identity on the child without it's consent. Now, I know we're talking about dolls so really it doesn't matter because they're just resin and don't honestly have actual identities aside from the ones we create, but a real child does.

Just to give a real life example of a mother putting a gender identity on a child there's the case of the poet Rainer Maria Rilke. His mother lost a daughter so to compensate she treated Rainer as a surrogate daughter. If you look at his life, the issues he suffered from with his family and with women, it's clear that this part of his life did have a significant effect on him. Just read through a short bit of his biography and poetry and it's very apparent.

But again, these are dolls. You can do anything you want with them, put them in any clothes you want, call them vampire cavemen from the year 3000 for all you want and that's your personal choice. None of my boy dolls are cross-dressers, nor do I plan to have any cross-dressers in the future because that's just not my thing. So I agree with Somnambulist on the fact that these threads are very numerous and people seem to either care too much about what some people feel about their own dolls, or about what other people do with their dolls. People are going to be offended by what people do with their dolls in this hobby, that's just natural. Well done cross-dressing, from my perspective, with a real solid background as well is something that I don't mind seeing nearly as much.

 

There's nothing wrong with it. Your doll, your free to do what you please. You dropped quite a bit of money into your doll. You don't owe it to anyone to conform to their standards of propriety - not to mention, they're dolls.

That won't stop me from rolling my eyes and going "Oh gee. Another crossdressing boy doll. This is cutting edge."

 

Pretty much how I feel about.

 

Cross-dressing doesn't offend me. But in this hobby, I do feel they've become clichéd. The crossdressing portion of the human population is a small fraction. In BJDs, it seems unrealistically overrepresented. As well as sometimes unrealistically presented.

However, as stated before in this thread, once a person's bought a doll, it's theirs to do what they will with. That doesn't mean I have to feel that I have to look at the 100000th example of it and pretend it is intriguing and original. Or justify why I skip over it in preference to something that I DO find more interesting in the galleries.

 

I have quite similar idea with you.
You can buy or make any kind of clothes for them, it is "my doll" anyway.
And I do not force you to like my doll's clothes.
In the other way, if you do not like the crossdressing, just do not look at it
and say no with people who want your boy to do the crossidressing. Just simply close the windwo if you do not like, and find other dolls you feel more interesting.

To me , the idea is something like " I don't force you to like my taste, and please do not force me to fit your taste."

 

It's a personal choice, isn't it?

 

What about parents who dress their babies in Halloween costumes, which the children can't possibly understand or want to wear?

What about the humilation that some hospitals put children through if they're born during holiday seasons-- like, say, putting pink or blue corduroy bunny-ears on their heads in the nursery ward, just because that child had the rotten luck to be born near Easter? And then PHOTOGRAPHING them? (My mother still has those photos of 1-day-old me, with pink corduroy bunny-ears on my swaddling baby-wrap garment thing, and she still threatens to release them to the press if I ever run for public office.)

Dear god, what about Anne Geddes calendars?!? In 15 years, who is going to pay for the therapy bills of all those poor flower & pea children??

And please, don't get me started on chihuahua outfits.

Clearly, the urge to "make cute things cuter", at the expense of an unwitting/unwilling victim, DOES translate into everyday modern life-- and is commonly accepted. And clearly, it's OK that the child doesn't get to have a voice about it. It isn't considered cruelty, or putting gender/other identity onto a child without its consent. So if dressing a child like a raspberry or a pumpkin or a rabbit is acceptable, then why would it be so horrific to let your little boy play around in your slips & heels?

 

I have to second this. I see plenty of boy (or man) dolls wearing traditional boy or man clothing. Maybe the ratio of "cross-dressing male dolls" to "manly-dressing male dolls' on DoA is different than the ratio of "cross-dressing/manly-dressing male humans" some members see out in the real world, so they start to think it's the vast majority. (I mention this because I live in a fairly conservative area where it is more rare to see the fashion "extremes"... which is kind of sad because I do believe variety is the spice of life. ^_~) Yes, there are an awful lot of cross-dressing or girly male dolls on DoA, but there are also an awful lot of male dolls who wear traditionally male clothing... and it seems like people forget about them sometimes.

 

Of course there are traditionally male dolls on DoA. And you're right in the fact that the number of traditional boys here and the number of crossdressing ones does not mirror real life. But then I suppose dolls don't have to face the prejudice that real people do. They (or their owner, I suppose) do not have the fear of being "outed" or or being harmed in some way for defying a gender stereotype.

But also consider the number of masculine females. There are...very few that I've ever seen. So those with girl dolls are conforming to a feminine standard. Yes it's more difficult to crossdress a female doll with gender-neutral clothing and unbindable breasts .Even so, compare the number of feminine boys to the number of masculine girls. There are way more of the former.

That said, it is your doll and your character. If you want it to wear dresses, go for it. Just don't expect people to think the idea is original or to fawn over it. But then you also shouldn't be met with overt hostility. I guess...neutrality? Because everyone knows there are worse and better things out there than crossdressing dollies.