Face-up Brand Picky: What do you think?

I could swear there was another thread with the same or similar topic as this, where some person felt all snubbed because a faceup artist didn't want to work on her particular sculpt.

Bottom line is the artist gets to choose who they want to work with and what doll they want to paint. You don't have any right to demand that somebody paint your particular doll sculpt. I can't understand why anyone would feel entitled to have a certain artist paint any sort of sculpt, and if the faceup "isn't that great" then who cares, or why would it even be an issue because you wouldn't give the person your money to do a faceup anyway? Sometimes I feel like people in this hobby really go around looking for issues to feel upset about.

Artists refuse to paint certain dolls for a lot of reasons, including (as I recall from the last thread where this came up and from knowing artists myself) that they've done many of a particular sculpt and get tired of painting it; that they want to paint certain sculpts only and in some cases even have a list of what they want to paint, which might not include your doll or brand; that the artist doesn't like the look of the particular sculpt or company's sculpts in general and can't work well with it; that some companies manufacture dolls with resins that are harder for faceup artists to work with due to the quality/ texture of the resin.

Having said that, I too think it would be nice if the artist put any restrictions on what they will and won't paint right in their commission info to save time, but given that people are going to read arrogance or some kind of snub into a refusal to paint something, I can sort of see why they don't.

 

I think it's totally up to the customizer. And people who are offended by it are being silly. It's not as if they are saying "I won't do XXX sculpts because I think they are cheap and ugly and so are you for owning one!" Reading something like that into it says "insecurity" to me! (Sorry, but we are in "debates" and I feel a bit free-er in being frank, here!)

Have you ever been rejected for face-up commissioning due to their policy? (perhaps, they don't disclose it and they ask what your sculpt is and then you got 'no' from them)
No. But then I will usually check to see if the customizer is used to working with the kind of sculpt I have first. And THAT is what I think is behind certain customizers preferring certain sculpts: some customizers styles just work better with some sculpts and as a buyer, I LIKE it that the customizer KNOWS what they are good at! It tells me that they know what they are doing--that they are MORE professional, rather than accepting just any sculpt! (I'm an artist myself, so I'm well aware that all styles and abilities do not work with all materials/sculpts!)

If you are a face-up artist and have this policy, may I know why you choose certain brand? (perhaps, my silly theory is right that certain brand is hard to 'figure out'?).
See above for one explanation. Another can be, as the OP mentioned, aside from the sculpt style: the resin--some faceup-artists know better how to work with certain resins than others. And also, some artists can just be more excited and interested in certain sculpts more than others. You really do NOT want your faceup-artist to secretly be disliking your sculpt! So really, it's BEST if you go to an artist you KNOW enjoys working with the sculpt you have and has examples on their site/thread that you know will be good with your sculpt. If they are working on sculpts and in styles entirely unlike your sculpt and the style you have in mind, it doesn't matter who they are, they are probably not the right one for your head's faceup!

So, rather than be overly-sensitive about someone SEEMING to dis your sculpt, you should be a smart commissioner and know something about how to find the best artist for your sculpt and the style you wish to have done on it! Pick an artist who loves your sculpt and can obviously do it justice in the style you wish to have! Do not try to make an artist love your sculpt if it's not something they seem to like from the examples they show!

 

But we are not in business with them and we have not hired them if they are not accepting our money and commission There is no exchange happening. If they don't work for us they can dictate any terms they like. Freeeeelancing

Artists don't work for DOA Incorporated. I think that is the mix up here. They use the site to advertise but this site is not a company and we are not the customer unless they take us on as a client. Do you see what I mean?

 

I like your post a lot ^^ . I really appreciate when someone else says alot of the things on my mind so I don't have to =P .



I don't think anybody questioned the artist's 'obligation' to take on a job or not, or whether customers are 'entitled' to hire whomever they please. That seems like a gross assumption to me. I hate when that happens... I say 'Oh, I don't like xxx' and some people assume 'Are you saying you think nobody should have the right to able to/like/etc. xxx?' . It's like 'How can you think such a terrible thing about me, that would be ridiculous!' So, in this situation, like being accused of being of the opinion that artists should be robbed of a freedom. I don't think it's about that at all, but about how these practices seem to us, if they seem like good ones or not, and why.

There are lots of good reasons why an artist would refuse a certain brand, I can see that. And as freelancers, hobbyists, etc. of course they have a right to pick and choose with whom or what they do business. But with that right, of course there are consequences to the decisions one makes.

One consequence to denying or only accepting certain brands is that some potential customers will gain the impression that it's snobbish or feel somehow offended. They aren't required to 'correct their thinking' for the sake of the artists, especially if they don't understand the reason. If the artist is concerned that customers may get the wrong impression, they should explain themselves in their policy (and similarly, if they don't care if customers don't understand or gain a bad impression, they don't have to give any explanation) .

Customers should definitely be allowed to be curious, or question the artist's policies. What kind of customer service is it if an artist won't even allow questions about their business or feels insulted when a customer asks? Unless of course an artist puts a specific policy in their FAQ stating 'DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS' (and if some customers find that rude and unwelcoming, that's the price the artist pays for the sake of not being bothered) .

It may not be a deal until a commissioner accepts a customer's job, but the actions and business practices outside of these individual deals certainly matter as to how an artist runs their 'business', and how they project themselves. An artist's general attitude toward dealing with jobs matter toward their job. So if an artist had a policy of accepting any brand and doing an excellent job no matter their personal preferences (it is possible, strangely) , how they are perceived by potential customers may be different from an artist that denies certain sculpts they don't feel confident with and gives discounts with others that they really like. In what way they are perceived of course depends on the individual customer and how the customer values certain business practices or attitudes of the artists. But it's the potential customer's right to judge an artist however they like by how the artist acts. For most artists/hobbyists, potentially being seen as kind of snobbish by some people that don't understand their reasons, it's no big deal, and if it bothers them, they have simple ways to deal with it.

But the point I guess is that even freelancers shouldn't feel, uuuh, 'entitled' (I hate that word...) to do anything without being potentially judged in some way by possible customers. Do what they want, have whatever policies they want, that's a given, but of course how they run their 'business' may effect how others view them. Artists who care about their 'business' image should take such things into consideration. As potential customers that's their right too. If a customer is unhappy that a certain faceup artist won't accept their brand of doll, or whatever other policy, they're allowed to be unhappy about it, hate the policy, or make their personal judgments about the issue. I don't think that makes them entitled until they think 'I think it's wrong of artists to have that policy!/They shouldn't be allowed!' which... I don't think is common.

ali

 

Isenn, I used the phrase "potential customers" for a reason. Many individuals expect, even as mere potential customers, to be catered to and romanced like they are in electronics stores and beauty salons, and are puzzled when customizers don't follow that pattern.

Edit: Almyki posted as I was composing. I think she makes an excellent point that I only sideswiped.

 

Lizzard, you are spot-on about the Potential Customer expectations of having someone bend over backwards to woo you into a sale. However, this is not Neiman-Marcus... it's not Circuit City... many customizers just won't work like that. And many buyers do not expect to be coddled by their customizers, because they know some artists can be "difficult" types (the term "artistic temperament" is usually spoken with a judicious eye-rolling, for a reason ).

Sure. But why not let THEM worry about that? That artist's reputation is not any of your concern, or mine, or any other potential customer's.

If the potential customer is offended, really, they DO need to correct their thinking - snap out of the entitlement-bubble & realize how real people operate. Eventually, with experience, they'll learn not to plunge themselves into a K-hole from every little roadblock that presents itself in life. If the artist cares about having a Warm Fuzzy reputation, yes, they'll provide explanation for their policies & avoid all that.

But if the artist is happy with a reputation as a prickly, picky, unapproachable eccentric who only works on Brand X dolls & doesn't like to explain themselves - that's their business. Maybe they don't like getting a ton of business, and prefer to work at a slow pace. Maybe they don't like floods of junk questions & want serious inquiries only. Maybe they just want to work on what they want to work on. Maybe it's none of our business how they want to present themselves. Or why.

Everywhere I hear it, all this faux-concern for other people's reputations -- "you shouldn't set your prices so high, nobody will buy from you!" "you shouldn't discriminate against any dolls for commissions, everyone will think you're arrogant!" -- is always so hollow.

 

While I am not a customization artist, nor have I ever wanted to commission someone for customization only to discover they did not offer services for whatever I had originally wanted done, I observe the establishing of "do-not paint" lists as a non-issue, personally. If a customizer, for whatever reason they have deemed suitable, does not wish to paint whatever sculpt I am wanting done, I'm really not going to want them to do so. This is from my assumption that if a customizer doesn't want to work on something, it is either because:

a) They have a personal distaste for the sculpt, and that distaste may mean they may not do as good a job and/or incinerate it on sight,

or,

b) They have done fifty-five of that particular sculpt over their career, but have only painted seventy-five heads to date, and would really just like to do something different for a change.

Those are not the only possible or plausible reasons for a customizer to decide not to extend their services to particular sculpts, but they're the ones I normally think of first.

And really - since it has come up in this debate - regardless of the level of talent you personally perceive from that customizer with the "do-not paint" list, who are you to dictate? Besides, if they've said they do not paint the sculpt you would like painted for any reason, what makes you think if they DO paint that head that you will like the results? Chances are the transaction will only leave bitter tastes in both of your mouths, and your money and their time would have been better off spent elsewhere in the first place.​

 

Maybe not everybody feels this way, but I love the weirder face-sculpts. If a face-up artist can take a slightly-rejected(not rejected, but they don't sell many of that doll) mold and create something beautiful that would appeal to many people. Face-up artists should be able to see past this and see the potential. Every mold to me has potential. Some I like at and can't see past the company's photos and usually when I do that, many other people feel the same way, hence, not many owner photos, but if you really look at the doll closely, there will always be at least a few great features and them. I love when I see a doll that I'm not too fond of, but then I see some of those dolls whose owners have seen them in a different light and made them more appealing to the regular enthusiast. Just my point of view.

 

I hate to, not should I say argue, but feel offended by that and say something about it?

My statements had nothing to do with entitlement whatsoever, I think all of my sentences in that paragraph started with "I", now that could refer to being arrogant, but I feel this thread was started as our feelings towards this and how we react.

Of course, I can't go into a store and see a toy I like that's blue, but go up to the store manage and say I want it in purple(regardless that this isn't really in their hands, but say a place where it's hand-crafted art). This is my point of view at shopping. If I see a face-up artist's gallery of work, and they really only do Dollzone dolls and the like BECAUSE they refuse some others, I'd be afraid to spend $50-$150(or more) on a doll face-up when I don't know if the artist would be capable of making my doll look as gorgeous as they did on the previous ones.

You say you're excited because you like their style, but what if your mold is not a popular one and when they use the same principles on your doll than then others they've done and it doesn't turn out as nice, how would you feel (I don't know if this has happened to you before)?

I think I've come off too picky as a customer while this thread is about artists that are picky in terms of shape, and even if not so, I kind of feel this was related to what I had said.

I was referencing to artists who I have seen do amazing jobs, but really with a limited range, somebody stated this before as a reason they start refusing some molds because they've done too many of them.

I never said they weren't good, and of course I don't want to send a sculpt away to an artist who doesn't like the doll I have.

Someone mentioned before that this is a hobby and these people are usually doing this on the side. But, many more artists that deal with other forms of art aren't usually as picky as I see in the doll community. If they say not to paint dollzone, I think that wouldn't be smart because if you look at the arrival gallery or just the normal gallery, a vast amount of dollzone dolls are on those subcategories of the forum. It's like a photographer saying they don't want to do weddings(this is kind of on a bigger scale, but if they rule out a more popular company, it's kind of their loss to me).

I do know people in life who are picky and I see their reasons, but I don't think they're all that wise, but they've survived even with these choices, and if this is just a thing to fire your hobby, artistic skill, or your piggy bank(not for savings, but more as pocket money), then I don't think it really hurts you, so why not restrict companies that don't really appeal to you? There are people that would buy from you, but I might not(not saying it would be because of this, but it would be a little factor in there).

 

I realize this was not directed at myself, so I apologize for that, but I will jump in and say I think this is one of the reasons some artists introduce lists of dolls they do not (or will not) paint. Perhaps they have done that sculpt before, and are unwilling to get someone's hopes up knowing they will be let down?

Some artists may require practise time for head sculpts they are unfamiliar with, and they may be unwilling to sell their services because of it. Would you want to pay full price for a "practise" face-up? Limiting their services may be their way of avoiding this.

That said, I don't think it would be unreasonable to enquire as to why a certain sculpt or company has been listed as something a customizer does not paint; however your query would have to be very well-worded and neutral in all aspects, and you would have to be prepared for the possibility that the answer you receive may be something that you disagree with, or find offensive. In the end, you wanted to know. I am also operating under the assumption that the customizer has not specifically stated they do not wish to be contacted about the sculpts they have listed as unwilling to paint; if they have, your inquiry will not be kindly met, since they have no wish to discuss their decisions with you.​

 

Aha! But there ARE many successful, traditional artists who refuse to lend their artistic talents to certain subject matter. Robert Bateman is a wildlife artist; he does not often paint people, but his career has not suffered at all for this. People can specialize in anything they want, or feel they are best at, and they have every right to do so. Demanding OR even politely requesting that Klimt stop painting naked ladies and paint your cat instead is rather unreasonable, because he is perfectly happy and successful painting whatever he wishes. There are also many photographers who choose only to photograph subject matter that appeals to them personally.

I do agree, though, that an artist may be limiting themselves if they are choosing not to paint a certain thing, depending entirely on their reasoning. If it is a matter of personal taste, they may just be completely unsatisfied with anything they do to that sculpt simply because they so dislike the canvas they are using to display their abilities. If, however, they feel they just "aren't good" at painting a particular sculpt, choosing not to paint them only means they will not improve their skills with that sculpt, and they may feel they "aren't good" at that sculpt no matter how their talent evolves on sculpts they do choose to paint.

I will conclude, though, that no matter anyone's stance on the matter, it is completely within the rights of the artist to limit what they do with their talents, and where - even though those choices may confuse, or even offend the very people they may be marketing their services to. All artists take this into consideration when choosing what they will and won't paint - or if they don't, they should.​

 

Totally makes sense.

I'm not a face-up artist by any means (I've only completed two at this point!) but I wouldn't want to touch anything by LadySaiyuki for much the same reasons. But if someone popped up with one of her yos asking why I won't paint it up, I'd be fine with explaining it to them. And that be that. I don't find that as entitlement on either end.

I guess only after watching that madness go down do I really understand why so many adamantly refuse items from certain companies.

I guess I didn't really know how to take the artist's decision at the time. I assumed it was becuase of DZ's very stylized aesthetic was being picked on again.

 

hi! i just popped by here (i'm probably late with a comment) and being new to bjd this year, i thought it was interesting when i would look at face-up threads and people would say they wanted to take certain dolls over others. (i thought i might add a newbie's perspective on the topic)

i honestly didn't think too much of it, i was more concerned with slots or what would happen if you couldn't get your doll in the lottery drawing.

it never occurred to me that an artist was being arrogant or elitist or what have you by saying they only wanted to work on certain sculpts. i just figured they wanted to see a sculpt and have experience to add to their portfolio to show their diversity and get more clients. if they didn't want to work on a sculpt - that just means you move on to find someone else.

i also think an artist should answer questions of potential customers. i don't want to send doll pieces to someone who might not know what they are doing - i know someone pointed this out earlier, but - i can't stress enough how helpful this is to someone who has never commissioned a face-up before. face-up commissions can be quite stressful - especially if you have a certain look in mind and don't want the company face-up or the company doesn't offer custom.

i commissioned my first face-up this year and i think it might have been a terrible experience if they weren't able to help walk me through the process and help me with options - there were so many details i had no idea about and if i didn't ask questions and they didn't ask questions of me, then i wouldn't be as happy as i am with my girl's face-up.

i do think the artist has a right to refuse to work on a sculpt and i don't think it's any of our business unless they chose to disclose that up front in their commission post. i can't imagine an artist wouldn't be willing to look at a photo and use it as an example so they have an idea of what you might want, but then apply their style to make it theirs and not a copy. what helped me explain what i was looking for was using examples from the artists gallery and saying what i liked and then we worked from there to make it different and unique and fit the doll.

cheers

 

I have to say your just iterated my point, if you were trying to refute it, if an artist is really good(at least appealing to more than a minority on this forum and they don't paint dollzones and all you have is them, other people will commission them. I think that's one of the reasons this hasn't been brought up before, artists can potentially survive without it.

 

I enjoy debate threads the way I enjoy soap operas- so much drama! although towards the end here things have really calmed down.

So many people are so capably defending the commissionable artist in this thread, I just want to stick my 2 cents in ^_^

I think the initial reaction would be confused and sad if I saw my doll on a list that simply said 'I do not paint X doll' and I wanted that artist to do my dolls faceup. I would not be able to call the artist 'arrogant' because I wouldn't know or understand the reason for their decision. I think that allowing the consumer to gain knowledge about the artist is the very basis of this thread, its a reasonable thing to want to know about, and that most of the posts in this thread are generally off-topic as such. Most people are discussing how *right or wrong* it is for themselves or others to feel, not the reason *why* they feel that way. And I think someone even said that we're not allowed to question why.....

However, since I've now read this entire thread, I thus have a good enough understanding of an artists 'will not paint' list and so would not feel confused or offended if I saw it (still might be sad though)

 

Exactly! But the operative phrase here is "to me". And it has nothing to do with you. You're the only person who feels it's a loss. The photographer in question might feel that refusing to do weddings is a gain-- she might HATE doing weddings, and would rather stick red-hot pokers in her eyesockets than suck up to some rich bridezilla. Doesn't care if rich bridezillas find her 'arrogant' for refusing them. Might be the type who'd rather starve all year, & accept 2 good commissions out of 100, than do weddings. Not everybody wants to compromise their art for money/recognition.

But, as you also pointed out, not all artists will suffer for having such exacting standards, either. If you went to Annie Leibovitz & asked her to photograph your baby in a fruit-costume like Anne Geddes, f'rinstance... her career will not exactly 'suffer' when she turns away your business. ^^

Still, skill-level & fame have nothing to do with this issue, per se. Each artist, first-timer or pro, approaches their art in the way that makes sense to them, which includes working only on what you like. Once people grasp this concept, they'll stop taking every doll-related rejection so personally (this is a life-skill that takes youngsters & the oversensitive some time to learn), and get on with finding an artist who's right for them.

 

Hey Lizzard. Although I quoted you I intended my post in a more general way I feel like some of the tension has to do with people (any of us really) forgetting that we are not in a typical customer service setting.

 

Is this really a huge problem? I know before I set up my own commission thread I read about 3 pages worth of them to see what needed to be included, and I can't remember seeing more than one or two who listed sculpts they don't paint - and it was because they were starting out and found those particular sculpts difficult to faceup. I also saw at least one person who had a list of sculpts they'd paint for free, because they really want to paint them. I think one time long ago I saw one that said they'd painted a billion of one particular sculpt and would rather not do any more of it.

In my thread I mention I don't paint Anthro dolls, don't (yet) do body blushing or natural manicures, and am not taking super-tinies like Pukis until I finish my own. The reason is that I'd really like to actually do one or two of those not as a commission to make sure I CAN before taking someone's money and learning on their doll and just hoping it all works out. One of my first commissions is a sleeping head, and I gave a half-price discount because I hadn't actually done one of those before. I've done two almost-sleeping ones and am halfway through a winking one, but still am learning so I thought it was more fair to knock the price down a bit.

In any case, though, it's the artists prerogative to set their own rules. If they can't stand looking at a sculpt, they're not going to do a good job of it, so why would anyone want to pay them to try? Same if they did one before and hated how it turned out, or found it difficult, or have done so many they can't think of anything new to do with it, or whatever. There are enough artists that if I wanted to commission someone and they had a "will not paint" list that included my doll's sculpt, I'd just keep looking. No big deal.

If they don't want to paint it, I don't want them to paint it either!