Face-up Brand Picky: What do you think?

You said it in a way that should be able to close this whole thread! Exactly that.

 

There was. It was about a face-up artist who wouldn't paint a Bobobie head or something, and the owner of the doll got super offended. But, I guess since this is about a face-up artist who politely decines vs. an artist who rudely declines...

 

As a face-up artist I have never felt that I had the right to not care what my customer thinks.

Unfortunately, more times than I care to remember, I do not understand what my customer wants, no matter how hard they try to explain it. Don't know why this happens, but it does, and it very frustrating to me and them.

Not only do I want to make my customer happy, but I want to be able to challenge myself to do work that makes me feel accomplished as an artist and also ensures that I continue to have work.

There isn't anything more flattering and humbling at the same time, than to have repeat customers, or new customers that have been referred to me by a previous commission.

I think that one of the most satisfying aspects of being a face-up artist is to exchange ideas with the owner of the doll. After all, I want the owner to be happy to own the doll with my face-up on it. Its a bit of a trip to be able to get into someone else's mind and paint what they "see". When I get it right and the customer is happy, its a big feather in my cap and it builds up my confidence.

Regarding the painting of different molds, I've never refused to paint any specific sculpt. Honestly, its never occurred to me to say no to one specific doll. Unless it's a copy of another company's mold; that I will never knowingly do, but anything else you can bet your dolly money I'm going to give it a shot! The more varied my portfolio gets, the better I become as a face-up artist.

However, there are some sculpts that are harder to paint than others, and the reasons can be many. I really think its up to the artist to decide what dolls they feel comfortable painting and which ones they don't want to work with. As long as the communication between artist and potential customer is respectful, I don't see anything wrong/snobbish/diva-esque with declining to work on a certain doll.

 

Oh yeah, that kind of thing is uncommon, but not unheard of.

Quite frankly, it's absolutely true. Some dolls are harder to faceup than others-my AOD doll is very difficult for me to faceup because he doesn't have natural eyelid creases and what not like my DZ minis do... Were I a faceup artist; however, I would take this as a challenge-not as an opportunity to come off as a whining elitist.

In the end though, an artist has every right to decide whether or not they want to do a faceup, and we really shouldn't judge that.

 

Absolutely great answer! like everything in life, communication is always the best! and i am lucky enough to have wonderful girl who is costumising my AOD head at the moment. She keeps me updated and always asks me what else i want, and if there is a problem with the head or resin. As far as i know, i never heard or seen anyone who acts like a "diva". But if there was an artist who is like that, best thing to do is respect, by totally sad that he/she cant work on your dolly, but always look forward to another artist who may have other great ideas and ispiration ^^

 

When you walk into most stores you are by default a customer. You are standing within their walls and they are trying to sell you everything you see in the store. The manager will treat you as a customer.

It is not the same with a commissioned artist. Again, DOA is not a store. You are not the customer until they decide they want to work with you. That is why it is ok. I am sure once you are their client they will do their best for you because after all...it is their work That is what is so great about freelancers. They don’t need to extend themselves to everyone who walks in the door and as a result they are the energy to give super special attention to the customers they do have!

-This last part is NOT directed at Olivia. It is a general.

Frankly I am confused with all these posts on DOA lately that sound so wrong done to. Stop looking for something to be upset over. If you can’t help but be upset (and I know that sometimes it just can’t be helped) maybe repress the urge to exaggerate your small issue and turn it into something the whole community should take sides over. Debate is awesome, but I am just seeing people again and again pull ridiculous claims out of the air and not backing them up with any solid facts. If you are going to suggest someone is “arrogant” maybe you should first back up that label with something more solid than your wounded feelings.

The new thread trend is misrepresentation after exaggeration becomes fabrication followed by magnification and finishes with poor-me-rant-ification.Why not instead spend your time doing something that makes you happy like being creative with your doll?

 

But an artist is not a clothes seller or a fishmonger... with a shop u can complain once you have BOUGHT something and it is not according to your standards. Art is different, and i have yet to see an artist that is rude or a total snob. Comissioning is totally different. It is asking FIRST, and then get a no or a yes. If you get an explanation COOL , if not, then you might wan to respect the artist position too.

 

Mishita, did you actually read Isenn's post? Your response to her first part is pretty much what she says herself in the second.

Were you a face up artist you'd be able to choose whether to accept the challenge of painting dolls with unrealistic eyelid creases or not, and it isn't an admission of cowardice or refusal to improve their skills from any face up artist who would choose not to paint those dolls. I've not seen any face up artists who specify which dolls they will and will not paint come across as whining elitists.

Seems that the only people doing any whining are the people who don't understand that face up artists are people too, and looking at and painting something that uninterests them is downright uninspiring, no matter how much they charge for the service.

 

Is it horrible and terribly mean of me to admit that my first reaction to every single thread that starts like this is "suck it up and deal"?

 

Heh Tez, no that's not horrible at all! Though I guess the token response to that would be-that's what the debate sub-forum is for? Debating?

And Jescissa, I agree and disagree with you. For one thing, to say that one brand of dolls is uninspiring to look at does strike me as a very elitist thing to say. On the other hand it is true that artists sometimes have less inspiring work-but that's life.

People establishing themselves as faceup artists need to understand that every comission they choose to do and choose not to do effects their reputation. The reputation of: "This artist will do their best on any sculpt and any style" is a much better one that "this artist only faceups particular dolls in a particular style" in my opinion. The artist who will faceup anything also comes across as more serious and more passionate about their work.

 

Most people do? But when someone asked the question 'does that seem hinky to you?' and some people said 'not at all, how could anybody find it hinky?' , I thought I'd drop my theory on why. I'm not trying to dictate how artists or customers should deal with things (or I'm trying not to) .

I don't think they have to. 'Offended' is too vague a word, I think. A person can be 'offended' on such a micro-level that it's more of a passing annoyance, not something that plunges them into fits or anything. If they don't 'get it' and they think "what's up with that? my doll not good enough? lame", for a lot of people I think it's off-putting enough to bug them but not big enough for them to bother continuing that line of inquiry to any substantial end. When I first read the topic, I found it boggling too. Different styles of faceups I'd easily understand, but different brands? My first impression was that it was overly picky and I couldn't immediately think of a good reason why. First impressions are usually all the thought people give to the subject, and having an unappreciative one isn't entitled. It would be better of someone to assume the best about these sorts of things, but I think to expect that of people is a bit naive (and to consider those who don't as 'entitled' to be excessive) .

That's not to say I think the OP is being overly-offended at all. I'm under the impression she's just curious about such a policy and wanted to discuss it to learn more.

Yeah, like I said, the artist's choice what their policies are. I've seen antsy or unnapproachable artist commission posts, and while I might find them unfriendly, and while I might not like that about them, I usually understand 'There's probably a good reason. It's their business, they can handle it how it suits them.' Why do you think I don't understand all of this already?

And why would it be a crime if we asked some simple questions to understand why anartist does things the way they do? Is it a big secret, would we offend someone's delicate sensibilities with our curiosity and a bit of discussion? I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm not even saying if they're 'right or not' or judging artists for their policies. So what's the harm?

I'm going to assume this is a general comment not directed at me, since I never stated that an artist 'shouldn't' do something or that I was personally concerned about their reputations.

ali

 

I am extremely open to painting anything. I would even paint dolls like petdolls not approved for DoA, or the other types of BJD that have a different aesthetic.

I've seen some posts mentioning that the artists are a business, but honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me at all to turn away money if you are a business. Working artists do whatever they have to, even if they don't totally like it.

 

Yes, that's life - which is exactly why it is utterly NOT elitist to call something uninspiring. If something doesn't inspire you, it doesn't inspire you. That is a preference; that is an opinion; that isn't elitism. Remember, nobody's obligated to like any doll [or any brand for that matter].

(I'm so sick of the term 'elitist' being so widely & incorrectly used these days; I personally blame the Republicans in the '08 Presidential election for dragging that word down into the mire. -_-)

But you need to understand that the artist's reputation is none of your business. Why not let each artist worry about his/her OWN reputation?

Some artists prefer a reputation as a narrow specialist (and don't care if this includes 'arrogant' or 'snob') because then they can control their customer-base better & do more of the work they want to do. Other artists prefer to cultivate the warm-fuzzy-experimental "I'll try anything" reputation that you, personally, seem to like. Just don't expect all faceup customers to have the same needs that you do-- or expect all artists to care about having the same reputation.

Also remember that many people don't share your opinion that a dabbler/dilettante artist is "more serious and more passionate" than an artist who specializes & concentrates only on their chosen area(s) of specialty. Many others feel that the exact opposite is true - that an artist with the reputation of a Specialist is less risky & more desirable - because they seriously know what they're doing, they only do what they passionately love, & so the results are always solid.

No, not a 'crime' (please, take off the hair-shirt, nobody's persecuting you). The issue is not whether or not the public should be able to know/discuss these reasons-- nobody ever brought that up at all, so I don't know where you're getting it from? The issue is that many people here seem to refuse to accept some of these reasons as "valid", & seem to think that artists should always have to "justify" their choices. I'm saying that it's good for an artist to be engaging & flexible & forthcoming to everybody, but not all of them are, and they don't have to be. In fact, many of them are not. It's unfair to expect all artists to behave the same way-- and from this discussion, it's clear there many people DO expect artists to bend over backwards, make themselves an open book, & accept business from everybody.

But "brands" isn't the only reason people refuse things - in fact, that sounds like the minority reason so far. As we've since found in the past 6-7 pages since the debate started, lots of artists have been happy to provide lists of MANY concrete reasons that an artist wouldn't accept a commission. Doesn't like the whole brand's aesthetics, doesn't like a single sculpt, doesn't like a certain company's business practices, only accepts limited commissions, only likes to work on certain faces, etc. etc. And all these reasons are valid.

Of course it's general. Those were the impressions that some factions have been giving off en masse, repeatedly, in some of these Debates. They couch the argument in the form of faux concern for others, when it's crystal-clear that the motive is selfcentered. If you hang around these Debates for a few more years, you'll start to smell it too, & you'll get sick of the same old patterns.

No - my reaction is pretty much the same, but for some reason, Suck It Up comes to me in the form of a tagline from an old Sauza advert: "Life is harsh. Your tequila shouldn't be."

 

Here's my take on this-

It's said in retail that the customer is king, and it certainly makes sense to fulfill the needs of the person who is going to pay your bills. Even so, there are limits. If you go into an Italian retaurant and insist that you be served Chinese food, it really doesn't matter who you are or how much money you have. It's not a question of customer service or quality of service. You can't get mad at the restaurant owner for not selling what you want to buy.

In short: If one DOA artist only works with a certain kind of doll, don't expect them to change their menu just for you. Simply keep looking till you find something more suited to your taste.

[Sorry for all the food imagry, people - I missed dinner tonight. LOL!]

 

Except that it isn't. It really, really isn't. Not even a little bit -- even taking artists and inspiration out of it -- it isn't elitist, because not everyone has to like all things equally, period. (This is a separate issue to being polite and respectful -- you just simply can't thought police someone into liking something they don't.)

When you add artists and inspiration into the picture? It becomes even more patently absurd to consider this elitist behavior. Some artists draw from broad sources of inspiration, some more narrow. It doesn't mean that anything falling outside the umbrella of 'inspiring' is looked down on by the artist in any fashion. It just means it doesn't 'speak' to them as something they feel they can work with.

In my line of work, for instance, I work with female 3D models. I enjoy it. I'm passably good at it. I've had people hound me for years about why I don't do something similar for the male series, and have had similar accusations of "you just hate men!" or "you don't respect what your customers want!" and similar things that are, frankly, complete nonsense. I don't do it because... I'm not good at it. The attempts I've made have resulted in products that are not worth selling, and I've decided it's not worth the time at this juncture to insult the customers by sending them what I feel is a substandard product, or spend a lot of time I can't afford to spend beating my muses into cooperation in that regard because there just aren't several months out of the year I can spend doing that without income.

But I still hear similar complaints to the ones I've seen crop up here that suggest that because someone wants something, and has money in their hand, I am somehow genuinely obligated to provide it or there is something fundamentally wrong with me. Sorry, but that isn't the way it works -- what's fundamentally wrong? That mentality.

When you add in work-for-hire rather than the creation of a product for sale, and work to a customer's specs? Yeah, the range of what an artist reasonably thinks they can provide is also often likely to shrink considerably to work that they can reasonably be assured is of a certain level of quality; it's the responsible way of handling the situation.

And that's why picking and choosing what you are going to spend your time and energies working on is so very important in the first place.

Again, do you want them getting their experience and practice on your head? I'd be willing, personally, but I doubt everyone feels the same way about that. From the other side, I know I would be extremely uncomfortable working out my learning curve on someone else's valuable property, even if they said, "Hey, it's OK if something goes wrong or doesn't come out right."

Similarly, I'm going to trust that the person who knows their own work well enough to be able to say, "I don't work in this style, or on sculpts of (mature|child|tiny|monster|whatever) types, or on dolls from (company|country|batch|age|resin type)," to be something fundamentally important to real professionalism: knowing where your limits are. I'd rather someone say, "I work with this, and can deliver these results," than say, "Oh, sure, I'll give anything and everything a shot!" and not really know if they are equally capable in all regards.

Being a jack of all trades is not intrinsically more valuable than being the person who can do an amazing natural faceup, but only on, say, french resin Limwha or Supia dolls that look so real you expect them to start breathing any moment now. If I want that style but for my urethane WS Sooms, yes, it's going to suck to be me over here in wanty-want land. Yes, I might wish they would expand their range to let my dolls slide in under than umbrella -- but there might be reasons they can't or don't that are unknown to me -- and assuming they are less an artist than someone else, or are in some way sneering down at me from atop their elitist pedestal, is not really a proper outlook to take.

In the hypothetical case here? I'd probably drop the person a PM to say I like their work, and if ever they considered expanding to include dolls of my type, to please let me know, because I'd be very interested in comissioning them. There's a thing called mutual respect, see, and it's pretty important -- especially when comissioning work, because to some extent, you are working together even if it is just in terms of communication. If you assume someone is thinking poorly of you from the outset or if you are thinking poorly of them for their stated limits, that process is going to become much harder if that person actually does say, "Hey, actually, I'd love to do that!" and could, very easily, stand in the way of something particularly awesome.

 

As an artist, I can certainly admit that some dolls are harder to make beautiful than others, purely because of their sculpt, size or skin tone.

But my personal policy is that all dolls have the potential to be beautiful.
Just that some may need more work than others.

As for people that refuse dolls from certain companies or as you say, are "brand picky", I'm really quite intrigued. 0.0
Never heard of artists refusing certain sculpts. Heard of them favouring sculpts, for example offerng discounts for dolls they particularly want to paint, but never refusing.
At the end of the day, it's business, right?

But I guess some artist may do face-ups as a hobby. In that case I can completely understand that they may prefer to paint certain sculpts.
I mean if you don't like the sculpt you're working with, those feelings may reflect in your work. And thats not fair to the owner.

 

Not directed at me, but this sort of wording is why you sound as though you feel that people shouldn't question/"know/discuss [the] reasons". 'It's none of your business' tends to smack of 'stop asking questions'. I understand why you posted this ("faux concern" and all that), just wanted to explain why I got such an impression.

It's a figure of speech. Try not to take them so literally, that can get annoying.

See above.

Bolded part, that's cool.

Anyway, most people do seem to accept these reasons as "valid". I see few that don't, especially after they actually read these reasons. As for justifying one's personal choices, I can understand why some people would want to know the reason why a faceup artist won't accept their doll, and I can understand why they wouldn't be very happy if they didn't like the reason. I'll say that I don't think people should feel that way, but my opinion on people who do and what they 'should/shouldn't' do instead I'll pass comment on.

Well... all the stuff about what they don't have to be and how they should behave, we both already established we know. I don't know about "many people"... And I think it's more like what they feel would be the 'best practices' from a customer's perspective, rather than what they 'expect'. And accepting business from more people, being transparent, being very accommodating, are very good traits from most potential/customer's perspectives. Both artist and (potential)customer have different needs and things. A customer can judge any 'business' they want poorly for what they perceive as negative traits such as 'arrogance', 'rudeness', etc., and express that they dislike such traits in, say, faceup artist policies and find them unappealing.

It would be better if a customer would understand/learn the reasons behind certain decisions and thus not hold it against a faceup artist/view them badly. But I don't like calling someone 'entitled' because they don't like a policy, or even dislike businesses/commissioners that hold such a policy. Your peeve is at those who think that all artists should work the same/enable the customer at all times/refuse to appreciate the diversity and freedom of freelancers/artists. (Well, tell me if I got that wrong, but I'll assume that's it.) I don't like any of those things either.

I know all this. That statement was just used to point out 'innocent first impressions' that people can get, through no fault of entitlement or any other negative trait, about such a thing as 'why would an artist ever have a problem with certain doll brands?'.

I got sick of the Debate forum months ago. You don't need years to see all the holes of logic and false arguments in this forum, you need a couple months at most. I'm unpleasantly familiar with Debate forums . I usually avoid things like this, but I slip up occasionally.

ali

 

Mistita?????...I was defending the artists!

I don't think they need to explain themselves to anyone. I was comparing art to Walmart because (if you look at the included quote) I was trying to defend the point that commissioned artists are not like a department store.

Read through the whole thread first and you will see that I have been defending them the whole time.

Oh and thanks Jescissa! I really think people need to try reading more carefully before they just respond!

 

Mean? No that is exactly what I am saying. I understand that you feel this is mean but really....we all need to do this sometimes. Me too I swear.

Not everyone who offends us means to. Why come to the board and act all offended and create a stir when it is not necessary or needed? I don't believe any of these face-up artists mean to hurt people...so why invent all this drama about them? (I don't mean you Tez...just in general)

If an artist is not inspired it is not elite. It is something, a feeling I guess, that most people cannot control. Sometimes you want to be into something and you just can't be. What can you do about it? How on earth did people become elite for having personal preferences?

And "people establishing themselves as faceup artists" don't need to do anything they don't want to do. They build their rep. the way they want and if what they want is to be known as the best Dollstown face-up artist that is their choice. Specialization is not bad. Not everyone specializes but some people do and that is OK.

I feel pretty sure that if the BEST artist on DOA specialized in a mold you owned you would feel pretty happy to send your doll of to him/her because you would know that they love working on your doll! I doubt there would be any complaints either.

 

This.
I've seen the same "will not paint xx doll" tags and it's never even crossed my mind to be curious let alone offended.
Is it because I own mostly Volks? Maybe.
Is it because I'm 100% in love and proud of my dolls that I feel I don't need to defend my choices/take offense? YES.

My point is, people have to step back and look at their dolly choices. I believe if you truly love your doll and you feel you made the best decision for you, you won't feel the need to defend your doll. I believe that most these assumptions of elitism all stem from people's own insecurity about their own doll choices. I doubt any artist claims to refuse certain doll molds because they are 'cheap' or 'ugly'. You added those words yourself. But in the end, you are the only person who thinks your own doll is cheap/ugly. Think about it.

I'm sorry if this is offtopic, but I think it's this type of mentality that causes this sort of debate in the first place.