Face-up Brand Picky: What do you think?

I actually can't think of any that I have seen recently that lists any type of brand an artist will not paint. I have seen threads where an artist says they will not paint the super tinies or do goth faceups when they specialize in natural or vice versa. When I look for a faceup artist, I will go through their portfolio and see what kinds of dolls they have painted while evaluating their skills. I often use my favourite sculpts or the doll I am looking to get painted in particular, if the artist has worked on one, as a kind of litmus test. If I do not like the work on those heads, I am less likely to commission the artist even if they have done other work I have liked. There is a rather well known faceup artist who painted a Volks Luna in a way I absolutely HATE and I would never want to commission them based solely on that one head. I can't get the vision of it out of my head.

I think a lot of the culling...if you will, of things faceup artists do not want to work on is done in more subtle ways. This is in no way suggesting that I think that there should be price policing of artists or that they should not be able to set whatever price they feel their work is worth or that all artists who ask money set out to do this on purpose or are evil elitists or anything of the sort, as a preface. But the very act of pricing faceups immediately sets limitations on what kind of sculpts an artist will likely be asked to paint. Someone who only spent $150 on their entire doll is probably not very likely going to go after an artist who charges $150 for a faceup, and someone who paid $1500 for their doll is probably not going to search for free artists just starting out looking to build their portfolios. I am not saying that this is always the case all of the time, but generally, I have found that there is a correlation between how much a person is willing to pay for the base doll and how much the person is willing to pay for the accessories that go along with the doll.

 

This seems an interesting topic for debate since I don't find it to be something that can be questioned. It seems like with so many doll artists available, why not take your business elsewhere? I wouldn't even assume the ban of a mold from an artist's services is due to resin quality, repeatition or even because an artist doesn't feel comfortable. They may just dislike the company/mold. That is perfectly alright in my opinion.

I paint my own dolls as well as my friend's when asked so I may not be understanding the frustration involved for other doll owners. It's very easy to get offended about these things and I hope less energy is placed in that and more into finding a great, skilled artist who will enjoy painting your doll and doing business with you.

 

I think I've only seen one thread with a list of sculpts the artist was unwilling to paint, but it was ages and eons ago, so I don't remember exactly where it was. It was here on DoA, however, and the artist did explain that they just wanted to diversify their portfolio because they'd done quite a few of those sculpts already, and wanted to show that they could do other types of faces as well. I also really think posting a link to such a shop here directly would be - choosing my words very carefully - easily misinterpreted as finger-pointing. I don't want a simple discussion to negatively affect the patronage of any of DoA's artists, whether that affect was intentional or not, so I think it would be better if links were not posted; that said, if it does interest you to help you formulate your arguements, I would happily PM you the link privately if I come across it, or another thread similar to it again if you would like. n_n

Returning to the discussion as a whole, because of the nature of a face-up artist's job any restrictions or specifications they choose to place on their own work are not (or should not be) based on anything circling around the definition of elitism, as it was defined by Jescissa earlier. (I am speaking generally here, because I'm sure there are artists that make their choices based on an elitist mentality.) I feel that, as a whole, it is beginning to be portrayed by some that all artists think this way, and I find that wholly unfair. I have watched this topic raised a few times, not only here on DoA, and that is the feeling I seem to get from more and more people who have participated in discussing it. Perhaps I am misinterpreting these select people; I hope I am, and would be glad to be proven incorrect.

I am not trying to define what is right or wrong for face-up artists in a hobby that is partially fuelled by something as fickle and volatile as an emotional attachment; because of the nature of the hobby, it is virtually impossible to do so in the manner we're currently discussing it. What I would like to do is pose a few questions:

Why does it matter if an individual artist refuses your proposed commission based on their visual assumption and personal opinion of the materials you want them to work on?

What makes that artist's decision important to you, as someone looking to that artist for a service like a face-up?

Why not just find someone else, rather than labelling an artist one way or another based on the limitations they impose on themselves?

Why is what a traditional artist chooses to do or not to do so fundamentally different to some than what a face-up artist will or will not do?

And, if it is not different, what makes it matter so much more?

I am of the opinion that it doesn't; it isn't; I would; it isn't; and it shouldn't. There is a tendancy for some to instantly batten down the hatches when they come across something in this hobby they disagree with, or they feel singles them out in any way which I find confusing, reduntant, and unessecary. If someone does or says something which you disagree with, I am the sort of person who is normally content to agree to disagree, and move on with my life. I could understand if someone was singling out a person, or group of people for the sole purpose of ridicule and belittlement, but that is absolutely not was is going on when an artist creates a list of things they are not interested in doing, including when they create a list of dolls they have no desire to paint.

The few instances I have personally seen of such a list have been polite, non-combative, and well-worded desicions that were not made hastily. Why should a perfectly reasonable decision lead to so much offense and objection? Why not just let that artist be, and move on to an artist you can trust creatively with your doll? Why does one person's decision, whether it is based on personal opinion or not, matter enough to warrant your attention?

This is not racism; this is not sexism; this is not physically, mentally or emotionally abusing anyone or any group of people. So why is it so damn important? ​

 

Here's a similar topic, it was locked, then again, this one is phrased more as a debate: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268520

 

Hey, you always make sense. At least you do to me!

I had to go back and look at that first posting to see what you meant (I admittedly had not read it closely for nuance ).

I also note that the OP is from Indonesia and there is therefore some likelihood that his or her native language is not English - therefore the "arrogance" term probably wasn't meant to be as loaded as it came across. That's just my opinion, though. As is my total agreement with your final paragraph -- and my continuing awe at how quickly we seem to jump down others' throats these days.

 

Ah, it most likely is that things must've gotten lost in translation, or that there was that 'lack of a better term' issue.

BUT onto the topic:

I'm thinking that it's not fair, but they don't do it cause they want to, they do it cause most likely their style doesn't seem to look right on certain molds/they're not used to them. Maybe there's like...a difference in the way the resin feel when painted onto? Like, the 'tooth' to it is diff. even sprayed with. I only saw one artist that didn't want to do face-ups for AoD's, tho. And did kinda upset me since it made me think there'd be more others that would reject..

 

Yes, that's the thread I was thinking of, but I couldn't find it. I don't really understand why we have to constantly go over and over and round and round about the same topics on DoA, such as "elitism," dollie gender, and whether dolls have souls or are creepy.

 

I'm brand new here, but I know that I'm impressed with the multitudes of different types of BJD art dolls that I'm discovering, so I could imagine that it might be understandable for an artist to stay with a few types of dolls for face-up work. If that is the case, I think it might be good for the artist to specify in ads that certain types are a specialty.

 

Oh lord you are so right!

No, I am not trying to formulate an argument (I think I said all I need to say). Rather I believe we are debating over an extreme minority. A lot of this talk about elite artists feels like smoke and mirrors to me. I am also bothered that some are applying characteristics (arrogance, inexperience, elitist) to people they don't know. It is easier to make up negative ideas about someone when they remain the "nameless artist."

But with that said, I think asking for the link was a bad idea. Sorry about that.

 

hmm, well here's my 2 cents to the discussion. Granted, I'm no expert but...
Yes, I agree an artist has a right to choose the terms they will work with in any manner, simply because it is their time, skill, and money, as it's for materials, etc. as few would get more materials for a face-up after each commission, unless it's a unique material. It takes very little of the paints/pastel/etc. to create a face-up unless it's a heavy, decorated, and/or dark one. And I find that when I do a face-up, I tend to waste some paints/pastels to an extent even when I try to use a little as possible. Most may not realize, when doing a basic face-up or something that isn't extravagant, it doesn't take much materials to use and yet, much can potentially be wasted. With paints it's worse because you need at least so much paint to keep from drying out as you work. You can only thin/wet it out so much before you loose the opacity of the color. Granted this is to face-up alone, but if you include body blushing/etc. you may have a better chance to utilize the rest of the materials better. In the long run, you're paying for an artist's skill and speed with the materials or in some cases sculpt too. Of course, the better the materials, the better the look for the face-up, with minimum to no permanent staining to the resin. Thus the cost in the materials would still be a factor, regardless. And sometimes, an artist has to redo parts or all the face-up because it doesn't look the way the buyer wants or for mistakes they made on their part. Thus more time and materials are spent. I've spent about around $100 on basic paints/pastels/etc. alone, not including brushes and tools, just to do a couple of face-ups and partial body paintings for my friends' dolls (though I currently have a doll on layaway that I'll have to do the works on eventually).
Some artists may feel more comfortable working with certain sculpts or simply wants to expand their horizon in the sculpts they paint, like others have mentioned. Buyers have to understand their point of view is that sometimes an artist wants to make sure it's a look you can be satisfied with. From a seller's point of view I'd feel more confident in a sale that I know I can deliver on. A lot of artists, I'm sure, wants those who commission them for their skills to get their money's worth.

Now for the buyers' point of view/side, you do have every right to ask what materials or method is used, or any other question you can think of. As long as you're not being rude, there's no reason to not question an artist for what you may believe to be a reasonable question/request. After all, you're paying your money for their skill/time/etc. If you don't like how they have their payment/work method set up or if they can't offer what you're looking for, you have the right to not choose them for your commissions. There's plenty others that can work with you. It's a bonus if they can offer any information or suggest another artist to you that may be able to help you better, etc. To me, it's simply good business to at least try to be helpful, even if you can't help them with what they want, yourself. It's simply common courtesy, especially if you know you're not making a sale, because if anything, that person can recommend another person to you that may be more interested in your type of business, simply because you've been so nice to the original customer in the first place. Also, in recommending another artist, it's kind of like helping each other out too. To me, methods like that are an almost win/win situation for everyone, and everyone can be happy somehow. But either way, buyers shouldn't have to feel shy or uncomfortable to ask questions, as long as it's within reason. Obviously no artist wants someone to ask for outrageous requests or make demands that are out of bounds of their limitations, but even artists must expect that buyers will want to put a bit more demand on them, than companies. I find that in a twisted way, people may be more inclined to be more demanding to individual artists than company artists, because they'll feel (not saying everyone of course) less secure in how their doll's face-up may look in the end. With company artists, you get the general idea of what the dolls will look like just about all the time (with slight variations, of course). But with self employed/hobby artists, unless they have a large gallery and/or a decent handful of pictures of great-awesome face-ups, buyers may feel they have to be more picky or "hovering over the shoulder" in their ideal face-ups. Goodness knows, I would to some extent, even if I try not to be.

But no matter what the situation, in the "end", both artist and buyer has to come to a conclusion on whether or not they are right for each other in what they are both looking for. And the quicker both can figure that out, the better the chances that they wouldn't be wasting each other's time and finding others that can fulfill what they are able to work with.
But yeah, that's my long 2 cents worth ^-^;;

 

:/

I hardly think that those that are applying negative characteristics to the "nameless artist" are the only ones that are doing so to general groups of people. To be clear, yes I'm directing this at you yourself (though I think this also applies to others too) . Generalizing can't be helped. Negative generalizing can be unpleasant, but since the debate topic was centered around our impressions of a possibly-questionable practice, it's expected that some of them will be negative.

Anyway, I think you might be looking a bit too close at this point, because I think only a couple of people have used the word 'elitest' and it's a minority that think this way. Those that do have opinions that differ from yours ('I don't like the practice and think it's bad customer service' 'Either way, it can still come off as kind of elitest/arrogant' 'It sort of gives me the impression it's because they're less experienced') I don't think feel so strongly on the subject as you have the impression they do. It's probably not a big deal to them, but they had some differing viewpoints they thought they'd share, in a harmless debate thread.

Remember the majority of people either don't care or are understanding of the artist's reasons, so no need to get too bothered about the few that feel different. They're just the most noticeable to you.

ali

 

I was speaking generally and trying to stay away from making this super personal. You should try the same. Don't project your ideas of what you think I am feeling or how serious you think I am etc...I am not mad at all and I don't think the majority of people here believe that artists are elite. I think it is the opposite actually. I am just chatting about the topic like everyone else.

If you want to address my points from earlier posts fine. But talking about the inner workings of my mind and telling me YOU know how I look at things is really really off topic.

Anyway, I think we have exhausted this topic.

 

Wow, you took that pretty badly. Didn't mean bust up your bubble.


It might be exhausted or not. Well, I'm done anyway.

ali

 

Regarding the OP: as a faceup artist, I don't reject a head if I don't like the mold personally. I've worked on molds that I don't care much for and would never buy myself. I took it as a challenge to make something beautiful out of something I found inherently unappealing. I think it worked.

I have in the past, however, offered discounts to work on certain molds (volks, soom, iplehouse) because I didn't have a lot in my portfolio at the time. Also, different resins have different textures and qualities to them. Some take paint and pastels very very well, others are really difficult to work with because the resin itself seems more porous.

I've seen a popular artist restrict their commissions to specific molds. I see nothing at all wrong with this. They do great work, and if you have one of those molds they want to work on, awesome for you. If you don't, go on to the next person. Theres so many ridiculously talented faceup artists in this hobby that its kind of silly to get offended by one person declining to give your doll a faceup because they don't want to work on that mold.

hehe, but then some folks love to be offended.

Regarding a few comments others have made:

Kim, I agree with you about how much a person is willing to pay for their doll being directly proportional to how much their willing to pay for faceups and accessories. Thats often the case. I've seen a few very expensive limited edition dolls completely mauled by folks attempting to mod/paint them on their own when they have no clue what they're doing. Mind boggling, but hey, its their dolls so whatever.

 

When I have had a chance to transfer my model making skills over to BJDs and have done a couple of practice heads so that I know what I am doing with them as opposed to the models I normally do, and feel confident enough in my work to offer my services out, I have no doubt that I will be taking any and every commission that comes my way just to get my reputation up.

Once I have a reputation for good faceups then I will probably become more choosy on what I do, just as I am with any wargaming miniatures that someone might want painted - I won't do Battletech miniatures coz I think that they are a pile of poo and I would not want to waste my time doing something I will loathe painting, but I love i-Kore and GW minis but only want to do character models or small units (5-10) or one off tanks or larger creatures. Why? Coz painting a unit of 50-60 skaven ratmen all the same will bore the living daylights out of me, and my work on those won't be half as good as say on a single Grey Seer champion model.

I guess I may well feel the same about some dolls, but I will only know once I have faced up a few...

Saying that, with my love of really small minis (28-56mm scales), I bet one day I will get a reputation for doing really nice face-ups on tinies and I am tempted to get one without a faceup just to try it out...

Phil.

 

I think others' opinions here match mine perfectly. Doing faceups is a labor of love, whether money is exchanging hands or not. They are under no obligation to do something they don't want. Why should I get mad if I try to commission someone and they tell me they don't want to paint my doll? Good. If you say up front you don't want to paint it, that's wonderful because then our time is not wasted, we can say good day to each other, and be on our merry ways. Would people honestly say, "I know X doesn't like to paint Y dolls, but I really want them to paint mine"? Why try to force an artist to do something they don't want? If an artist I love tells me they only want to do their faceups a certain way, then don't argue it or push it - if it doesn't work for you or you can't compromise what you want to meet that, don't commission them.

I guess the easiest way for me to make a parallel to something most people could experience... say my friend has fluffy, adorable cats. Lovely things, and I like to visit them and pet them. One day my friend buys a hairless cat. It's still a cat, and well-behaved, loves attention and all that... but I don't want to pet it. I'm not being mean or anything, it's a matter of personal preference. I pet the other cats because I like to touch their fur. Why should I pet a cat I won't like touching? That cat isn't going to shrivel up and die, and the owner isn't going to kick me out. I might leave, if they make a huge fuss about how that cat is worthy, and I'm an elitist and a snob, and I don't deserve to touch their other cats if I can't pet the hairless one.

 

it really disappointed me that a face-up artist i really wanted to do the faceup on my RS doll wouldn't work on RS; at least he/she posted it right in her information, so i didn't have to go asking, but still. it bothered me that i couldn't get the certain style i wanted because... why, i'm not sure.

depending on how the artist words things like that, it does make them come off as 'holier than thou' and that's really unfair, especially to those of us who aren't so artistically gifted as to be able to do that kind of thing ourselves, and are willing to pay the (sometimes very high) price to have a faceup by a particular artist done, only to find out that they won't do it.

that doesn't mean, however, that artists don't have the right to refuse to work on certain brands of doll, or molds, because they do. it wouldn't be fair to expect them to work on everything that people throw at them.

 

Once i get started doing faceups... I doubt I'll say no to any brand unless I'm uncomfortable with their resin quality, but I know I won't paint things like Dollfie Dream or Obitsu. I'm just really disenchanted by those kinds of dolls.