Getting a Limited on Behalf of a Friend: Right or Wrong? Why?

LAst Dolpa I had 2 friends (aside from myself) enter for Suigintou. Even with three chances to win I still lost (and I'm still peeved too...). I think it's okay to do anything to anything possible to get a doll (within reason).

For a contest I think you should 'do it yourself' if possible, but if you have someone willing to enter a contest with you who will give the prize if they win is fine too. I've tried repeatedly to win a doll for my friend (but haven't).

 

Bermanns, Volks, CA State Lottery, it doesn't matter...

1. I have picked up a limited doll for a friend who couldn't attend the event I was going to. Since s/he paid me directly, and no Marketplace activity was involved, I fail to see how there could be any problem. The same amount of money changed hands, and the doll went to someone who would've been there if s/he could have.

Nobody harassed either of us over this, but if they had, I wouldn't have given them the time of day; it's rude & presumptuous of anyone to think they can dictate how I sell my privately won doll(s).

There is also the matter of karma. If this friend goes to a future event that I can't go to, where there's a doll I require, now I get to call in a favor.


2. No, it wouldn't be wrong if that person happened not to be a friend. If both parties stick to the agreement, & the transaction was handled in the same one-to-one way, again, there's no problem.

(In reality, however: it must be said that I probably wouldn't even offer to pick up that doll for somebody I didn't know personally. Why stick your head in a blender? )


3. No, the type of contest doesn't matter either; doesn't matter whether the obstacle is waiting in a line or writing an essay. If the final transaction is handled in the same one-to-one way, again no problem.

A skill-contest, you'd think that'd increase the fairness, right? Not at all... skill has NO relation to intent. That skilled essay-writer could just as easily be the scalper who goes on to get $6K for that doll.


4. "If lots of scalpers often win" is a specious circumstance-- how are you going to quantify that one before the contest has even happened?
But once again, the number of other competitors (be they scalpers or not) has no bearing on whether or not it's OK to pick up a doll for a friend.

"If the contest is vague" is also an abstract circumstance. Just because the rules of the contest are vague to one person who's busy screaming "Unfair!" doesn't mean that the contest rules ARE really vague or unfair. Maybe everybody else understands them just fine.

Even "widely perceived as unfair" is unreliable as a concept, because this lends credence to mob rule. Popular opinion doesn't always equal truth. In fact, when coupled with hysteria, it often creates a witch-hunt. Then you can practically watch how fast Truth gets lost among the torches & pitchforks.


5. Every person involved in a contest decreases everyone else's odds of winning; that's how the numbers run. Whether I'm competing against 10 or 1000 other people, it STILL has no bearing on whether it's OK for me to pick up a doll for a friend. I am still only one person-- I am not buying up 100 lottery-spaces to get that doll-- so therefore, I am using my 1 chance fairly. Thus, I should be able to use my 1 chance in any way I see fit.


It is a good debate topic, even if it's all hypothetical. But IRL, I generally don't spend my time worrying about how other people get their dolls at all. If my number doesn't come up for a limited, I'm usually busy scouring the secondhand market for that doll, instead of chasing down the winners to harass them over their good fortune.

 

1. Is this right or wrong? Why? To say it is "right" 100% of the time or "wrong" 100% doesn't fit. Every situation has to be taken individually. Sometimes it seems wrong and sometimes it seems right.

2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)? This question is easier to answer. It's always easier to do things for friends. With a friend or family member, you know their motives and want to help them get the things they want. If a certain limited is their goal and they really, really want it, then I'll try to help them if I can and it isn't illegal or against the rules.
I wouldn't do it for a stranger, because I don't know their motives. If they are just wanting to scalp the thing or just want it as a status symbol and didn't really care about it, then I'm not going to lift a finger to help them. I always like to see people get things that they'll cherish. As long as I could be assured that the person really wanted it, it wouldn't even have to be a close friend, either. I'd help a person that someone I trust has vouched for, too.

3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest? I wouldn't write an essay for them, no. That's something personal, and would feel like cheating. The people asking for an essay is wanting to know a particular thing about a future owner. Since I'm not the future owner, it would be lying. If they wrote it and we used my chance (but didn't pretend it was me) to submit it, that would be ok. I don't mind acting as go-between. A lottery's different. It's pure luck, nothing personal at all. My involvement would just be like having an extra lottery ticket.

4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it? It makes a difference to many people, which is why communication will always be key. It's human nature to be angry if a contest appears unfair or biased. I'd be more motivated to help someone if I knew that I could thwart a scalper or flipper. Not to the point where it crosses my moral boundaries I've already outlined above, but I might put more effort into it and be more likely to try and coax others to help out, too.

5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves? Of course it does. Two chances are always better than 1, 3 better than 2 and so on. But the larger the overall number entered, the less likely it'll be. 3 people entering has little more chance than 1 in a pool of a 1000. Also, that only applies to straight, draw-a-number, well and fairly run lotteries.

 

1. Is this right or wrong? Why?
I see it as being okay, if someone has not the money at that and wants a limited, there should be no reason that person has to miss out on the limited.

2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? no, I actually have been entertaining the thought of commissioning someone to purchase a limited doll for me and me paying them back over a time frame.
Does it matter how close the friend is?
no, as long as they are trust worthy and when both sides hold up to their own sides of the bargan.

3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?
No, but if you happen to win 2 doll slots, take 1 and give the slot to the next person.

4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it? If you turn around and sell a doll right after the contest, sell it for about the same as you purchased it for.

5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?to a degree yes, but it is like all contests where there are lots of people entering your chances are only as good as the amount of times you enter and how many others are entering as well.

 

3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?

If I'm entering on someone's behalf in an essay (or any other talent) contest, I really feel they should supply me with the essay/art/whatever for the entry.

As long as you're qualified to enter*, I don't think it's flat-out wrong to do the work for someone else. That's really no different than winning it and selling it at-cost to the friend. But it feels a lot more legit if they're doing all of the talent-related work.

* For example, writing the essay for a contest that's open only to under-12s when you're 25 and a professional writer, is clearly wrong.

 

1. Is this right or wrong? Why?

I would absolutely enter for someone else, and I know I have friends that would enter for me as well. I think it is perfectly acceptable 100% of the time. Its simple math, more entries means more chances to win. I actually did win a raffle once for a Volks Akira and I bought 4 tickets. It was my 3rd ticket that won.

2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)?

I don't think its wrong to be compensated to do it either. I got my friend's Tanpopo. I know that she paid retail, and I paid a little bit more, but still a very good price and she gave me little clothes and stuff as well. So its possible she made a little bit of money on the resale, but not much. I certainly do not begrudge her that. She could have chosen to sell her for $50 more to a stranger but was kind enough to give me a good price.

3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?

I would not wish for someone to take credit for my writing, so I would ONLY enter under my own name for an essay contest. But that being said, I would have no problem in writing fiction, about how much I wanted the doll, when its not true. If a contest is going to be totally subjective like that, it deserves it.

4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it?

Sure, though I cannot think of any contest that would be viewed as fair by all participants. If the loser lost because they didn't have the right ticket number, they will wish that it had been based on order time, because surely they could camp the internet and order faster online than everyone else. If they lost because it was order times based, then they will fuss that they were sleepy at 3AM when the orders opened and its not fair to their time zone. The only possible fairness is to have a pre-order and limit the run to exactly how many people ordered it. So no contest is fair.

5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?

Yes and no. Lets say there are 100 entries. Someone else has 1 entry. And you have 4 entries. Their ticket has 1/100 chance of winning. Each of your tickets has 1/100. Honestly each ticket or entry has the exact same odds as every other entry. So your chance per entry is exactly the same. The difference is that you have 4 chances with 4 entries, bringing your chances as a whole up to 4/100 and with one entry you have 1 chance. It does not DECREASE the chance than someone else will win. It only INCREASES your OWN chance to win with multiple tries.

My final thoughts on the matter are thus: If you want something bad enough to complain about /not getting it/, then don't be content and noble to stick with a 'fair' one entry. Do whatever you have to, to compete and win. Meanwhile I'll be doing some stuff that's a lot less stressful with the dolls I already have and the dolls that don't come with heartache.

 

You have only one type of 'winner' for a doll.

Person A wins a doll because they want it.

The problem is the various reason why they 'want' the doll. People have very different opinions on what is an 'okay' want.

Wanting the doll for themselves - generally okay
Wanting the doll to give to a friend - this topic and generally okay
Wanting a doll to mod the heck out of - there is a debate about this somewhere
Wanting the outfit only - There is a debate somewhere for this to I believe.
Wanting the doll to resell - This is where things get fuzzy.
Wanting the doll purely to resell it for the maximum profit possible, playing on people's weakness/desire for the doll (Scalping) - Generally looked down upon.

Then you have situations of...

Person wanted the doll, but just didn't bond with it. - What then is the acceptable limit of 'profit' they can justify getting for the doll? This varies from person to person from 0 to as much as possible.

Person wanted the doll for a friend but friend no longer wants it. - Similuar to the situation above.

You then have the rare... Person didn't realize they were entered into the contest (christmas gifts), and so doesn't know what to do about the new doll. Sell or keep.

You then always have the financial crisis situation.

So many situations and debating them can take forever. Personally this is an expensive hobby, and if I can help a friend save hundreds of dollars by not having to be forced into the secondary market to get the doll they want (and pay scalper's prices), then I'm all for it.

If I get the doll, I'm going to resell it to reclaim my expensives, but I'm not going to 'scalp' the doll.

Here is true example:
Lady wanted the Ruby from the LA Dolpa. She lives in New York. It would cost her the price of a plane ticket, hotel room, and then the doll to get it. Or she can buy it on the secondary market for rediculous prices. Or she can see if she can find someone to buy the doll for her.

I went to the LA Dolpa, beyond the cost for going, I had gas for going back and forth as far as expensises. I got the doll for her, and got a small commission for doing so. She got the doll for significantly less then it would have cost her to get the doll herself, and less then secondary market as well. I even talked her down in price. (She wanted to pay me more for getting the doll for her, but I said no.) I only had minor expnesises to cover. But I did make a 'profit' on the doll, some would still see that as wrong. And yet I still took a loss if you take into account the cost of attending and such. (Okay I'm just rambling).

-Anneke

 

Now that the Bermann frenzy is over I'm going to hold my hand up and say that a close friend/relationshippy type person put in an entry to the lottery with the intention of letting me have the doll if she won. As it was, she didn't, and my entry, using my own email and account, did win. Apparently there were more entries than ever before, so I hardly think the two out of over a thousand is much.

Do I feel bad that she was willing to help me out? Of course not. It's not as if either of us are scalpers (I will keep him forever!), or indeed even that she's a stranger (not that I see anything wrong with that particular route). Undoubtedly, had she won on her entry, then I would have done something nice for her in return. She's the closest person to me, and she wanted me to be happy. I won my boy, fair and square, and I really am happy.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

To me, it's like if someone I know was heading to the store and asked if I wanted something and I said "get me a banana" or what have you. For all I know there may only be one banana left and I'm taking away the chance of banana ownership (eatership? XD) from some other person. I wouldn't have a problem with it so long as the person getting the doll offered or was receptive to the idea (my mother in law used to run a Japanese exchenge program and she constantly asks me if there are any dolls I want that she can ask her friends in Japan she's made through the program to look for- I've always said no though, mostly because I don't trust someone who doesn't know dolls to know which are which and I'm picky XD).

If it's something like an essay, photo, or design contest where the winner is chosen on the merits of the entry, I think the line is a bit shakier. Personally, I think that if you can win a doll for free in a contest like that, I would see selling it to someone, even for its retail value, as pretty shady. Gifting a doll like that, or a Seitenshi won through Volks bingo or somethign similar to a good friend I think would be different- especially because in cases like the Seitenshi, it's pretty random. From my understanding, you win them through games like bingo where the prizes range from clothes and smaller accessories to Seitenshi, so it's not like one-offs where you sign up specifically to enter the lottery for one specific doll.

Anyway, I don't really have a problem with people buying a limited for a friend or acquaintance or even a random they know wants and isn't going to scalp the doll. And for dolls that can be won for free from various contest, I don't think giving that doll as a gift to someone you know wants it is wrong either.

Oh, an edit:

I think this can fall into iffy territory as well (kind of like when each person pays for the entire train fare for a trip to Sato, even if they're taking 10 or 20 orders in the trip)- were you planning on going the event already? Did you enjoy the event on a personal level? Etc. I would certainly pay a Dolpa entry fee if some aquaintance who wasn't into dolls was going just for me just to get a limited, and didn't care one bit for the rest of the event. On the other hand, I wouldn't pay an entry fee for my friend who loves BJDs, owns a Volks doll already, is going to enjoy herself and wants to go and plans other shopping etc, but will get a limited for me while she's there. It's a different situation I think- I'm not judging you here, before you get defensive- it's just another interesting point to think of. ; )

 

I don't think it's fair to have 10 entries, but even so people will do it. *shrug* If you win the doll, then yay, if not then start looking for the doll on the second hand market. It's the same as standing outside of a store on Black Friday. The more people you've got with you the more of a chance you've got at getting what you want.

It's fair, even in an essay contest. If you want a prize, but don't have the skill, there's nothing wrong with getting some help. Like everyone's been saying the more entries there are, the more difficult the odds of winning are.

 

Those are good points. But I think you should also consider, did the time spent entering on your behalf prevent the person from attending something else at the event, or did their attendance save you the time and expense of attending.

In both cases, it would probably be reasonable to offer to pay some portion of their expenses.

In the case that the person is giving up some portion of the event to enter for you and isn't a close friend, it might be polite to offer some compensation even if their entry doesn't win.

 

I went to the event only for the face-up class. Did I enjoy the event on a personal level? For the most part no. I didn't own a Volks doll, and as such was treated rather badly by people (attendees and the staff). I rather not go into it.

So as you mention the train fare for Sato. Adding the fare to the Sato is okay, but if your doing 10 orders then each person should only pay 1/10th of the fare. (Basically that's what I did for the Dolpa, as I did have a few different items/people to get stuff for. I however did it based on percentage/cost of the items. You should have seen the crazy math/spread sheet/calculations I was doing before the event).

-Anneke

 

This is very strange to me, that you were not treated well. :'( I've known many people who've gone to Volks parties with no Volks dolls themselves and they've been treated very kindly.

Perhaps your lack of enthusiasm was felt by the people around you, and projected back. if you were not excited to be there, I'm sure many people may have sensed that and feared talking to you. It may not have been the fact you didn't own a Volks doll at all.

A sunny disposition does wonders!

 

I can't imagine anyone treating someone badly because they don't own a Volks doll o_o lots of people were there that don't even own a doll, including an employee I know...

I have to agree with Feral5, it had to have been something else ^^

 

is there a reason your friend cant enter this themselves though? i dont really see why they couldnt

 

I can't fathom even wanting to go to a Dolpa if you don't do Volks dolls in the first place, but that's just me.

I think whether or not you charge $$ for expenses (gas, etc.) above & beyond the cost of the doll, that's up to you and the person you're buying for, case-by-case. If it was an acquaintance I wasn't really-really close to, and if it would put me out in any way during the event, then I might charge a commission or finder's fee, or itemize the expenses for them. If it was an actual friend, and I was going to be at the event anyway, I might just charge the cost of the doll. (When it comes to winning Dolpa LEs that you don't carry home in person, that's even more of a no-brainer; all I have to do is drop my number in the box, get the forms, then line up to pay, no sweat.) As long as you + the other person agree to the terms of the pickup/sale, nobody else has any say in the matter.

Couple years ago, I had a Bermann-lottery-chance that I wasn't going to use for myself... and instead of just talking to the one friend I was helping, I made the mistake of mentioning it in public (ah, newbiedom).... And lemme tell you... all of a sudden, there were PLENTY of people who thought it was just FINE to use somebody else's lottery-chance! Including a few names (I shan't mention them) who have, interestingly, spoken up on the "Nay" side of this debate since then. Suddenly I had this brief burst of popularity & people sending me random nice PMs and offers of the darnedest things. The ethics of this whole issue seem to fall by the wayside when it comes to pure bare-knuckled point-blank desire.

 

Just because the molds don't appeal to me, there were other reasons to go. The market place, and classes. Also you didn't get your 'class' supplies until the end of the second day, so even if you had a Volks doll ordered for a 'class', there were those who didn't have one with them right then.

So true. People can be very hypocrytical when it serves their own ends.