Have you ever had another BJD collector say something rude about your dolls?

I think if you look at the whole sentence it actually expresses what I am saying not just that snippet, which out of context gives a different message. That snippet was also attached to "if you just tell me my doll is ugly, or publicly broadcast the same," When you read the whole statement you see we actually have made the same point, there is a difference between being rude and giving a critique. In your response the second I would consider a critique, not stating an opinion. Even coming to stating an opinion there is a big difference between an opinion and a rude statement of opinion, and I stand by the fact that any rude statement of opinion is needless. I also stand by the point that making a statement of a negative opinion uninvited is needless. In your example the second was not stating an opinion at all, it was asking a question, asking for a source whereby understanding could be found, or perhaps a helpful critique could be formed.

I agree with you when you say that blowing smoke up peoples arse and giving them an inflated sense of their abilities is needless, in fact I consider it detrimental, one of the other maxims I live by is "never pass a false compliment". However keeping a negative to yourself unless you are in some way attempting to be constructive is just putting unwanted and unneeded negativity out there.

I also agree that often people take offence too easily or experience it from their own internal issues, rather than something broadcast, but again point out "I don't like your doll's faceup/mods/clothes/all around look" is indeed a negative opinion (which I do not actually think needs to be expressed unless it leads to something constructive, but that IS my opinion, and I don't expect others to keep to that) whereas "OMG your doll is HIDEOUS" is rude. Opinions do not need to be rude. I think on this point we have also agreed.

For anyone wanting the psychological argument behind this, it is simple, the first has an underlying implication about the person saying it, that this is not there personal taste, the second implies that the person receiving the comment is somehow at fault, one is personal taste ie opinion, the other is judgment

 

I don't think I worded my post well. What I was attempting to point out is that it's almost impossible to avoid stating an opinion in a "rude" manner when people are so sensitive that all but the most glowing comments seem rude to them. How is anyone supposed to avoid stating rude negative opinions when even innocent statements and questions are perceived as rude and negative?

To whit, in the example I gave previously, which was an actual case from another doll forum, the person giving feedback may have done it in insinuated form by asking a question, but the reaction of the doll owner was extreme and defensive. She could not tell the difference between rude and gentle. So even though the question was, as you put it so well, "asking for a source whereby understanding could be found," the result was the same as though the writer had pulled out all the stops and insulted the doll.

To give more personal examples, I myself have been accused of "attacking" a forum member because I asked her to defend her position in a debate thread. I have also been accused of calling people names and "discriminating" against them because I stated that I did not share their belief in doll souls. And believe it or not, when I was a Virtue, I was told on multiple occasions that I was rude to give rule reminders in threads where the rules were being broken! I asked numerous friends, even moderators, to review these "rude" posts in the hopes of learning where I went wrong, but no one could figure out what was so offensive, aside from simply stating what someone else didn't care to hear.

The issue is as much internal as external, IMHO. We as a community must learn to differentiate between what it actually rude and what we, with our sensitive natures, merely perceive in that manner. And really, we need to do that before we go on a crusade against rude people, or there's going to result in a lot of collateral damage. We don't want the situation to escalate to the point that no one is willing or able to say anything of substance anymore.

 

hmmm, I don't think me or my dolls have ever been insulted ... maybe because i'm so mean and intimidating in person GRRRAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!! (lol, not) Seriously, i generally can't tell when people are outright insulting me if they are subtle, i'm just dense about that stuff. I tend to assume the best of people and i really hope they assume the best of me since i'm not always terribly tactful and sometimes i'm really litteral ...

 

I haven't had any negative comments that I know of. But, I have noticed that my younger friends seem to really like them more (by showing an interest) than my older friends.
I keep them mostly to myself in my offline time.

On here, I'm pretty new and haven't experienced any rudeness at all. In fact, every person I have had dealings with here have been very nice!

 

This is what I mean. Gradually this forum is turning into a place where anything besides a positive compliment is considered rude and offensive, because people don't want to hear any criticism, no matter how delicately put it is. The proverb 'if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all' angers me. It is used too often to hide behind that it becomes a hollow remark. Why not? Why are we so afraid of hearing/ telling the truth? Why can we only say 'nice' things? Who decides what is or isn't?

In Dutch there is a saying: Gentle doctors create stinking wounds. Meaning that a soft remedy won't solve the problem. Now of course I'm not vouching for a forum where anyone could bash another person's head in, but I'm getting tired of this thought-policing. I honestly believe that we create a healthier environment when we put our sensitive natures aside and become honest with each other. Even if it sometimes hurts, the discussions and conversations will be much deeper than they are now.

 

Silk - to answer your question i think you have to look at why people post here. Some post because they are developing their skill in photography or sewing or faceups ... and some of us just like looking at dollies and sharing our joy (maybe some have a combination of the two reasons, it's not all or nothing). Personally, i don't need constructive criticism - what for? I don't sew or do faceups and i could care less if my photography is bad or not, i'm not looking to improve it (well sometimes i am, and in those cases i seek out tutorials or ask questions). When i post i do so to share my happiness, and not to get a critique on my lighting technique that's my two cents anyway. i don't need a lovey-dovey environment, but it doesn't bother me. If i was an artist looking to improve my work maybe it would bother me, who knows?

 

I definitely believe in constructive criticism, especially if it's asked for. On the Critique forum, compliments don't help people become better artists. I know that I've probably inadvertantly hurt people's feelings by saying "Well, your eyebrows aren't very good, this is why, and here is a suggestion of how to fix it." If I had worded it as "Your eyebrows are just really freaking terrible." then it would have been the same message (bad eyebrows) but the first can help the person grow as an artist while the second will just hurt their feelings and perhaps make them unwilling to try again. I think a lot of what is perceived as rudeness is tone and word choice and people do need to grow thicker skins and try to accept critique gracefully. If you WANT to improve, then people being blunt is necessary and sugarcoating isn't helpful, but being unkind isn't necessary, I think. And if a person doesn't want to improve, then they have the choice of ignoring comments that they don't like. It's their choice to stagnate as an artist or to feel they've already reached their peak. As for outright rudeness, that's another topic entirely.

That said: I personally want critique. I always want to improve. I do not want to be bashed. I want honesty and I want people to tell me why they feel how they do so I can better understand what's wrong and how I can make it better.

 

This is what I mean. Gradually this forum is turning into a place where anything besides a positive compliment is considered rude and offensive, because people don't want to hear any criticism, no matter how delicately put it is. The proverb 'if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all' angers me. It is used too often to hide behind that it becomes a hollow remark. Why not? Why are we so afraid of hearing/ telling the truth? Why can we only say 'nice' things? Who decides what is or isn't?

In Dutch there is a saying: Gentle doctors create stinking wounds. Meaning that a soft remedy won't solve the problem. Now of course I'm not vouching for a forum where anyone could bash another person's head in, but I'm getting tired of this thought-policing. I honestly believe that we create a healthier environment if we put our sensitive natures aside and become honest with each other. Even if it sometimes hurts, the discussions and conversations will be much deeper than they are now.

EDIT: Before this comes up again: I'm not trying to make excuses for excessive rudeness. It is possible to stay civil when discussing. On the other hand, I can imagine that words like 'hideous' and 'fugly' are used as a counter. Awesome is a pretty strong word and it's used carelessly. If someone is not positive about a given topic at all, I can imagine she uses strong words, because she doesn't not want her comment to be swept away by all the 'ZMG awesome!!1!' replies this board is filled with. Not saying that it is right, but I'm trying to understand why someone might use such words. The explanation that he/she just has a nasty personality is a little too easy for me.

 

My friends can be as rude as they like about my dolls, theyre my friends and I know its just in fun, we all have different interests and tastes and we have a good sense of humour about ourselves.
I have had harsh comments about my dolls on the internet after some people have met me at meet ups. Looking back I see their point, I have progressed with my dolls alot, but if they had come upto me at the time and said those things to my face in a productive manner it would have been pretty good, I would have appreciated it. I would probably have a good laugh with them now. I like constructive criticism with some humour, I take it online from polite people on DOA but face to face I am pretty intimidating looking. I guess younger girls dont want to come upto older guys at a meet up and say, hey dude, your dolls damn ugly!

 

This quote sums me and my dolls up very well. I have improved my dolls but I have learnt from myself in trial and error. I dont have any doll aims anymore, I take photos of dolls when they look good to me in clothes I like, with a new face up etc...If other people like it, its a bonus. Thats my enjoyment of my dolls. If youre trying to satisfy someone elses expectations then whats the point?

 

You're going to get rude people in -any- hobby that makes you happy. Every one of them has their snobs, their elitists, and just those who think the hobby was created for them. In cosplay, it's the same way. In fact, there's a girl that thinks that after SHE cosplayed as Sailor Moon, everyone else who cosplays as that character is just cosplaying as HER.

Any time you get into a hobby that has a community with it, you're going to run into people who use that hobby as a way to show how much better they think they are than everyone else. It's worth tolerating though because you will also find some incredible people out there who are there because they loved the hobby in question.

 

I'm really amazed by all of you saying something like "hey - it's the way of life and you'll experience rudeness everywhere". Even if that is entirely true(and yes, it is of course), it should not be an excuse for saying that we, as a community, should just accept that. I've never experienced it myself, but I have seen some comments that were way too harsh and did not belong anywhere - not even in the critique section. Such comments are hurtful, and to be honest - it is bashing another member or his/hers doll. In most communites that is not accepted(DoA being one of those communities), and I would even consider reporting a post like that (in fact - I think I have reported several posts like that).

So I disagree (quite strongly) with all of you who say that we just have to tolerate rude people, because OF COURSE we shouldn't. I would never tolerate anyone being rude or mean to me, not in real life and especially not on any internet forum. Truthful opinions and constuctive criticism when asked for is something totally different of course, but rude, mean and hateful comments? Really? If anyone think that is something we should just tolerate I think someone needs to read the forum rules once more

 

I never get why other bjd owners say bad things about other people and their dolls.
Of course, everyone is more sensitive, but there's no use in telling someone you find something about the doll ugly, because that;s probably the owner's taste. Sometimes people mean well, but most of the time they don't know how to word it correctly and properly or just don;t care. There's a difference (a huge one) between bashign and constructive criticism.
I am much more open to people who comment on my dolls and mods (that I have done in the past) in a way where they make suggestions, like: You could try this if that's what you want to achieve.
Instead of just: I don't like it and it looks ugly. Because that's rude.
I go to art school, and the first thing you learn is that if you don't like it you either keep your mouth shut or find a way to formulate it so the person could improve their work.
Some time ago on a Dutch bjd forum there was a user who blatantly was insulting every doll on the forum. "It's ugly, it's stupid, I don't get why you would ever do that" and so on. She eventually got banned, because out of all her post, only two were not rude and mean.
I think everyone in this hobby (or alot of people at least) is sensitive when it comes to their dolls. it's their babies, their creations, and they take comments as rude faster than an ojective person.
I remember being upset about someone who didn't 'understand' why my doll looked a certain way. And then I realised, that it was MY doll and I liked her. It made me wonder why anyone would even comment, seeing as it's not going to change anything and my dolls are not here to please anyone but me.
Elitism is another thing I don't get in this hobby. it doesn't make you a better person if you have more dolls, or do this, or do that. It might give status, but otherwise it's not benificial.

 

I don't think anyone's really suggesting we should just tolerate truly nasty and hurtful comments but rather not be so over sensitive that every tiny criticism, difference of opinion or comment that isn't a gushing compliment is taken as a personal attack as seems to be so common within the hobby these days.

 

Well, to be honest, if it is not specifically in the critique section, most of the posters just want to get some praise for their dolls, photography, clothing etc. Why would you feel the need to critique it? If I'm posting in the gallery section I'm not after criticism, and I think that is why some people react to these critiques. They're not asking for it. So even how well- meant the criticism is, it would be perceived rude none the less. So, I'm not only talking about mean and hurtful comments, but rude comments in general We all have different opinions on being rude, so why say something that you know the recipient don't want to hear? Who benefits from that? I agree with snow on this. I really don't get why anyone would feel the need if the critique is not specifically asked for. It seems.... (and I know this isn't very popular, but here it goes)... selfish. Just because I have an opinion I should voice it? Because I need to get it off my chest? In my opinion, that is rude.

 

It's not so much that I think we should tolerate it. However if someone is being rude and obnoxious, it should be handled with class. When they make these opinions loud and vocal, they want attention and hope that other people hear them and side with them. However, if you deal with them in a polite manner and tell them that you're sorry they feel that way...who looks like the fool? The one blathering about someone else's doll or the one that is trying to behave like an adult?

Besides, nothing makes them angrier than letting them know that their unhelpful insulting isn't affecting you. When I worked in fast food, I learned how to deal with someone who is hostile. Be nicer to them. The angrier they got at me, the nicer and more helpful I would be with them. Eventually they would get too angry to continue and just walk off.

 

True, but we also have to accept that when we share something on the internet with total strangers we can get replies that are not as welcoming and loving as we might want to. Instead of starting a holy crusade to ban all nasty language, we could also decide to shrug it off when something unkind is being said to us. It would save a lot of energy.

Like I said in my edited post (which for some reason was posted twice), I don't want us to accept plain rudeness. I would like, however, for this hobby to be a little less sensitive. Right now, too many comments are considered personal attacks. Too often only the fluffiest replies are allowed. And yet, strangely enough, it is okay to attack those who don't follow that unwritten law. In this thread alone these people have been called 'haters' and 'elitists' and are accused of having a 'nasty personality'.
Honesty in my book is to accept both sides of the coin, not just the critique that suits you best.

 

Silk - personally, like i said, i have a very thick skin and i totally understand what you are saying i think. But i also know that i can't tell someone to just not have their feelings hurt or to grow a skin, it just doesn't work that way. i WISH people could just shrug off negativity like i do and i bet some of them would like to also ... but wishing doesn't make it so. it's like falling in love, you can't tell your heart to fall in love or to not fall in love, it's something that seems at least partially out of our hands.

I'm 35 and i used to be involved in the Heavy Metal, Straight Edge Punk and Goth scenes, at least tangentially for many years. that kind of environment makes you pretty tough because when you have people throwing garbage or bottles of beer at your head and calling you a "f@ggot" and trying to beat you up, well someone just criticising you or something you own doesn't even show up on the radar. But i know from experience that other people don't necessarily think or feel like i do and i try to be as sensitive as possible to that. It seems to work out ok.

 

I'm not saying people should be giving critique where it's not asked for (although there are plenty of tactful and polite ways of pointing out that something may be a little off) but at the same time I think it's a bit of a push to really expect everyone to just gush over a doll just because an owner wants some praise or a pat on the head. Personally that doesn't mean I'm going to go into a thread and tell them I don't like their doll or they could've done X better, that would indeed be rude and tactless, I simply don't comment if I have nothing constructive to say. What I mean is we've kind of reached a stage now on the forum where anything that isn't kitties and rainbows is perceived as rude or an insult and honestly, it's getting more than a little tiring, especially in discussion and debate threads.

As for voicing opinions... well, it is a discussion forum isn't it? As others have said, this forum is huge, you can't really present something to thousands of people and expect everyone to love it or to have the same tastes or opinions on something. Sometimes people are going to say something you might not like (general you here) but that's life, there's very little point in getting upset over what some stranger on the internet thinks of your doll.