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How would you feel if your doll was bootlegged?

Dec 20, 2006

    1. Speaking as someone who works within such an industry, even if they are paid little, a writer, like any artist, is paid for their original idea regardless of the initial and that is the point I was trying to make.

      Regardless, stealing copywritten work is legally and morally wrong and that is what bootlegging is no matter what the shape or form it comes in. The legal ramifications prove this time and time again.
       
    2. Suzuka, I understand that they are paid, but it's a lot less for all the work they do. While I can't say I work in the industry, I have been steadily researching all the ins and outs of it for years (I'm an amateur writer, and would eventually like to get into the field), and looked into the personal stories of numerous writers.

      As for bootlegging, I agree with you. It is legally and morally wrong. The only point I'm making is that I could see the motivations people have for doing it. That doesn't make it any less legally or morally wrong, but I can see their possible motivations.
       
    3. I should work on a blacklisted page of companies who've directly copied Volks for my guide, since with all the newcomers to this hobby they may not have encyclopedic knowledge of every sculpt and won't recognize a copy..[/QUOTE]

      I think thats a great idea!
       
    4. I am also in the market to get a published book (as well as like, probably half this board - whether they've done their research or not is another story) and I think that your comments aren't always the case.

      Books can take years to write - I know this, I've been working on something and struggling with it for over 6 years. But YEARS does not make a book sellable. There are millions of writers all over the world who have slaved their whole lives over one book and will never be published. And there are people who have slaved for less than a year and are successfully published - even a few, dare I say it, rich off of their book sales. So you seem to want to express the long term hard work of book writing. Let me point you into the direction of someone very rich and someone very famous who writes all of his books in 3 months or less: Steven King. I highly recommend his autobiography if you're an aspiring writer even if you are not a fan of his. And yes, you will see, he struggled with getting his books published but he never slaved for YEARS reworking, remodelling, and rewriting one book to get it sellable.

      It's luck. And it's the quality of your writing (or not, sometimes), your story, and if you just happen to get someone to review your stuff and want to get you published.

      How much money you make is actually depending on the deals you make, as there are various contracts on a book you can make or not make.

      Since this isn't a Writing Forum, I won't go into this much more. The point I'm trying to make is you really need to stop defending your "point" with book publishing. They are completely different playing fields.

      However, just like YEARS on a book doesn't necessarily make it publishable, so does QUANTITY have the same effect on a BJD. I'm not going to argue with you on price. It's expensive and people arguing that it isn't expensive either are caught up in the heat of their emotions or probably have been in this hobby too long to understand how much money 900$+ can really buy you. But knowing something is expensive and knowing something is worth it are completely different things. You pay for quality, you pay for personal service - and yes, you pay for a brand name - too. Part of the appeal of BJDs is the highly collectible fashion of them. Less is more. When you have something that is taken time with and there aren't a lot of them, they are naturally worth more. Of course there is profit to be made - maybe even killer profit. Whether Volks is charging base price of what it costs to make these dolls + 100$ or whether they are charging base price + 1000$ doesn't make a difference.

      Why? Because as you so keenly pointed out: just like with bootleggers, people create a market for it. Do you really think any other company is any different, though? Do you think the Cups you buy at Christmas Tree Shop for $1 are not a rip off and not expensive compared to what it cost to make them? Of course no one whines about THAT, because the relative price you're paying at the end isn't as much of a hit on the head as paying 900$+ for a doll.

      If there was no ability to make a good profit to keep a business prosperous and running, there would be no incentive to make these. These dolls are appealing, despite their price, because of the care taken to make them, the status of owning one (hey, it's expensive - it means something if you own one whether people admit it or not), because of the uniqueness, because of the ability to own something not everyone else can have. Volks' business strategy is to make these dolls personal and not abundant. Mass producing them takes away the specialness and the reasons so many people want them. Sure, then you could have them for a lot less money... but I wonder if something like this would be as appealing to everyone if it was 100$ and available EVERYWHERE...


      ACTUALLY... A lot of companies today, big corporate companies - chain restaurants, etc - started out in garages, little one man stands, etc. Even, I am almost positive if you go look at, say, Pizza Hut, they started their Pizza Business back with only $50 US. And even as long ago as Pizza Hut start, $50 wasn't very much money.

      And this is further not necessarily true about starting a business and loans. You do not need to be financially successful, end of story. This is strictly a case by case basis on loans and on money and really isn't a point worth arguing unless you are a professional who deals with this sort of thing every day or if you personally have started your own business before.

      And again, The Law of Supply and Demand in Basic Economics does not exactly state this and the Real World does not solely run on "Supply and Demand" Economic Theory. You do not lower your prices unless lowering your prices will produce more profit. And Elasticity of products decides this. If you're going to make more money selling less by charging more, than selling more than charging less, it's by no means a "failure" of a company to keep your prices high. In fact, the ability to charge higher prices, make profit, and prosper indicates almost the opposite. If you can't produce more profit, you lower prices when you are not making enough to survive. Losing money is better than no money at all, but that would indicate a failure because you're losing money in your business. You don't lower them when you're on top of the world. Volks has more than enough people saving for their dolls and people who appreciate them. People who want to argue and nitpick and do etc. as you are really aren't a concern to them.

      However, Bootleggers do concern Volks. Volks is also a small company that could be wiped out if too much bootlegging occurs. The hobby is still relatively small, they can't handle themselves the way Prada can. It's not that they can't make money and their prices are too high, it's that if enough people see 100$ dolls and get into the hobby that way and no one wants the real thing anymore, Volks isn't exactly a huge name company that can keep afloat since their current customers can't exactly go buy dolls from them every day.

      And it's a concern when people directly steal ideas/molds and try to pass them off. It can ruin a company, no matter how low they lower their prices. Volks shouldn't have to lower their prices because people want to steal ideas (and I'm not talking about people entering the BJD market - I'm talking about people ripping off their head designs or body design parts to a point they aren't very different at all).

      The point I'm trying to say is, you're arguing over nothing and trying to back it with things that aren't really fair nor are they valid when they really come down to it. You're COMPLETELY entitled to your opinion, but you're beating around the bush and you're not even really supporting your initial argument. Dare I say you're even agreeing with everyone in this thread 95% of the way, just arguing about it along the way?

      You already stated you agree bootlegging is morally wrong and everyone who has argued against you has not argued that they disagree with you about understanding or not understanding reasons for bootlegging. Everyone understands why bootleggers exist and why they continue to exist - whether they want to or not.

      People want things, and if they can't afford the real thing, sometimes the cheap imitation is better than nothing (Imitation Prada/Coach/etc bags, anyone?). But that's not even what this topic is about. People who say "I don't even know why they do that" DO know. And you've made your point.

      I respect your opinions, although I don't agree with your backup logic. In fact, I even agree with you on why bootlegging occurs and I agree with you BJDs are expensive. But, you're spinning a double edged sword nitpicking a company apart in a thread that is already upset about continuous bootleg happenings and then trying to claim your only intention was trying to show why bootlegging occurs.
       
    5. Let me get back to the thread's initial question... I would do my part in helping companies like Volks out. I'd be personally satisfied if I sent an e-mail to them with the details, and get a reply from that. They're going to have to do the rest, of course. :)
       
    6. I have to agree strongly with Nikita and Hitasura here. Just because the materials that when into an item may not add up to the finished price doesn't mean that the item is not worth what someone is asking - and what someone else will pay - for it.

      To use a drastic example: The oil and pigments and canvas used in making a painting (say by someone famous, Picasso, Monet, Van Goghe, etc) don't add up to the millions of dollars people pay for them. Yet no one even blinks at those sums. Why? They're paying for the time, and the skill, and in those examples also the prestige of owning and enjoying the art.

      Dolls might not be in that price range, but it's the same principle. Doll owners aren't paying for the resin, they're paying for the time and skill put into sculpting and/or painting the doll.
       
    7. You know, even modern visual art today is solid in multiplicity (they sell prints of 'em), and the price is still nothing to sneeze at, even if they're just copies.

      Why should BJDs be any different? They're also works of art, we buy them not because of the materials they're made of, but rather the result of what was done with them through hard work and inspiration. I'd probably think they were unreasonably expensive if not for the fact that a lot of processes involved in making one involves manual labor by a very skilled craftsperson.

      If one of the doll companies out there suddenly declares that they have a fully mechanized assembly line for BJDs, then I'd expect their prices would start going down in the long run. *_*
       
    8. Only if it's a list of companies that have been proven to have made bootlegs... :sweat There are several kinds of misinformation, including passing off conjectures as fact.

      On the topic of bootlegs - the thing that makes doll bootlegs a problem, to me, is that dolls are works of art. If Volks was a company that made... say... purses (like Louis Vitton), I wouldn't care so much, because while some purses by high-end designers are clearly artistic and creative, most are the same style/size as other companies' purses with just the high-end logo... and companies like Louis Vitton are richer than god - even with the rampent bootlegging of their purses, they aren't really losing the company all that much money.

      And usually, people who buy 'bootlegs' or knockoffs do so because they can't or don't want to pay the price of the genuine article, and wouldn't do so anyway, even without the knockoffs. Dolls seem the same way. Even if someone did their research... would most people wanting a yoSD-sized doll for 100$ really decide to pay 500$ for the genuine thing? They might find a cheaper solution anyway, like another legit doll company.

      People buy Volks because it's Volks, as well as because they enjoy the sculpts. That's, unfortunately, where we get things like Volks elitism.

      So even though I seriously doubt bootlegs would do a very large amount of damage to a company like Luts, Volks, or CP... dolls are works of art, and it's a lot more distressing to see bottlegs of art than it is bootlegs of more mundane objects.
       
    9. Actually, I don't think I would mind, because imho what makes a doll unique is the owner's special modifications and eye/faceup/wig/clothing selection and combination. My dolls would be special to me even if they were bootlegged.
      Personally, I wouldn't buy a bootleg, just because I'd prefer to give my money to the original creator- giving him some credit for his creativity, for making something I love deeply enough to spend so much money on. Also, the quality is probably really poor.
      There are lots of heads from different legal companies which are very similar, though. I don't know if they're copied or not, but they are very similar.
       
    10. Ah, the good old assembly line and mass production--the things that brought us cheaper goods but cut the crafts people out of the equation and made things considerably lower quality...It would be a horrible shame if bjds went that way--it just wouldn't be the same. One of the things that make these dolls so special is their beauty and quality which comes in large part from their makers taking a little extra personal time with their creations. If I'm going to buy a luxury item like this, I want them to be nice and I will gladly pay to get the quality. I want them to hold up to play, to be well made and posable, not shoddy pieces of crap that will break easily or who don't have the aesthetic appeal.

      I'm sympathetic to the people that are frustrated by the high cost of this hobby--I really am. And there are ways to cut the costs down (look for sales, buy the smaller scaled ones, learn how to do the face ups yourself etc), but it's still going to be expensive. However, you get your money's worth when you buy something well made. I don't think these dolls are overpriced. People have already outlined the work that goes into creating them and the artists involved deserve to make cash off this hard work--it's how they make their livings, after all.

      As for cheap direct casts--this isn't a gray area. It's stealing from the orginal company and selling something very inferior to unsuspecting buyers.
       
    11. I already answered this question back on page three, here. The only companies being posted as copiers-without-a-doubt are Forever Doll and Lolidoll. Good to know that people care so much about accurate information, though :daisy
       
    12. I get what Ren13 is saying and yes you were asking for it since you were the opposing said like me I guess. I have to ask this question, what is the definition of bootlegging that everyone is going by? Is it directly copying from the mold and selling it as an original or is it taking the mold and making minor changes to it and selling it as your own? And as for blacklisting companies...that's going to be a short list since two companies have been proven to do it. Accusing any other companies is just spreading a dirty rumor. And slandering is grounds for a suit if you got the monies for it. As for the quality of bootlegging...has anyone see these dolls in person to compare? Because I for one have seen some almost perfect knock offs and if it wasn't for minor differences the untrained eye wouldn't catch it for other things not dolls. And I for one find it hard to believe that no one out there has ever bootlegged anything. I wonder if people just have such strong reactions because of the $$$ you put into this hobby. Not saying that bootlegging is right mind you but it happens and we have all been subject to it. Because honestly in my opinion bootlegging is just a way to get almost the same thing for a lesser price, the quality is not that of the original in all case but who's to say that it isn’t half bad? I would be interested to speak with a rep of Loi to find out what they make their dolls with. Because all we can do is assume. I own a pair of shoes that have 4 stripes instead of 3. And they have held up just as well as the 3 striped ones when I had the monies to get a pair.
       
    13. Well, think of it this way.
      You wrote an essay/homework project
      You've spent months or even years researching on the subject and days or even weeks writing it up.
      Soneone in your class saw your essay, decide to take your essay/innovative, hand them in as their own work.
      They got commended because the essay was good.
      No credit went to you, they made no effort, stole your effort and got good grades whiles not having to do a damned thing.
      Would it be fair?
      How would YOU feel if you're the one whose works were stolen?

      This is also called plagerism and in the academic world it carries far far heavier punishment.
      Dollzone plagerised in the past but got a second chance
      Lolidoll is still selling the Moon under a different name
      But I've been told by my lecturers that a prestigeous professor lost his job, career, reputation and everything because of one single sentence that he plagerised
       
    14. Funny you should ask that, since you were assuming this hasn't happened to me when in fact it has. I have had my work stolen before. But I couldn't do anything about it because well, it wasn't my work it it's pure form. They rephrased it or as teachers promote "write it in your own words." Basically the same thing with minor changes, what can you do? If they didn't type it word for word, it's not yours anymore. It was a poem that I did, which was very personal to me but, she made it her own. The concept was the same the structure was the same but she changed the words just enough so she could have no guilt and it didn’t seem excatly like mine. Which in turn, turns it into a she did/said, he said/did routine. Definitely not worth the time or emotion if nothing is going to come of it. In my opinion.
       
    15. Then I find it odd that you'd still think bootlegging/ plagerism is acceptable.
       
    16. Even if I wanted, say, a VERY limited, VERY expensive doll, I would rather pine than live with the guilt I would feel if I bought a doll that was bootlegged. It wouldn't make me happy if it wasn't the real thing.
       
    17. Okay guys -

      I need to say thank you to the few people that have made attempts to understand what I'm saying or where I'm coming from whether or not they agree with me. I don't need people to agree, but I appreciate the effort to at least see why I think the way I do. :)

      The stuff here has gotten totally off topic though, and I'm sorry to have created so much discord in bunnywink's thread simply by posting my opinion and then defending it when people put it down to being an uneducated opinion.

      I've done my own research, read what everyone has to say, and I could argue til I'm blue in the face against the opposing points made, but it's not worth it. If you want to think I'm a n00b, or stupid, or uneducated, or just arguing to argue, then you do that. My opinion is still my opinion, even with all the cases people have presented against it, and I don't feel that any of the arguments/facts/anything presented should cause it to change one bit.
       
    18. I find it obvious that you haven't read any of my previous posts and that you are missing my point. I didn't say its right, I simply said it happens and it happened to me. And since I couldn't do anything about it really, I let it go. It's funny you even quoted me in post #93 where I said it isn't right. Guess you missed that. :)
       
    19. Yeap... probably
      Sorry about that
       
    20. First of all, I think Volks deserve the price that they charge because of their dolls' innovation and unique style.
      I also believe that bootlegging other's designs (not ideas because everyone are allowed to share a same idea; ideas
      cannot be patented while designs can) is a very bad thing and should be stopped.

      But ...

      Okay, I don't know how bjds are made. I'm guessing that technically they can be mass produced(? I don't know even I've started
      since three years ago ^^"). If so, the reason
      why they are not (well I'm basing it if and only if bjds can be massed produced) is because 1) the cost is very high
      2) BJD is a niche market 3) bjd will never have as much buyer as books. Economics isn't just about supply and demand. Bjds
      in some way can be considered as luxury items, so if their price got lower, they will lose attraction. There are so many
      limited dolls that are so popular but when new ones are released, people lost interest in the previous ones, and this is
      obsolence. Of course, there are some really popular ones that will never die out. :P I believe that if dolls are produced
      in developing countries (sweatshop :( another issue that I am against), expenses will be a lot lower, So it is not impossible. Clothing is already a good
      example. Reason being that the dolls made in Japan can't be made in developing countries because Japan is still a closed economy
      country. But then if dolls are made in developing countries, people will doubt the quality of the dolls. So that's why Bjds have this price tag.

      Please do not say that I don't respect BJDs or think that doll prices are crazy. I just bought a unoa from YJ and
      maybe my friends think I'm nuts but I think she's worth every penny. But I feel that artists still need to make living.
      No one will know for sure how much expense Volks or any other doll companies used on production and how much is their
      profit margin. Maybe they spent more on a new mold and less on a mold that similar to an old mold, and they balance
      out their expenses like that, I don't know and none of us will ever know. So I feel that arguing whether or not the price
      Volks charge is fair or not will never have a result. Just like some might feel buying a Louis Vuitton bag is crazy but
      I think it's very good quality and will last me more than ten years. I admit I'm spoiled and dolls with a big price tag ('cept for momoko :() that I want
      but I also understand there are other people out there that really cannot afford what they want so they go for an alternative but
      NOT a bootleg. I am very against people buying bootleg because I think there are so many options out there you really don't need
      to buy bootleg. But no matter how much I'm against it, I have no rights in stopping others' actions and their minds.


      Everyone can have their own opinion, and that's what discussion is about. I just don't feel right when discussion becomes
      something that everyone starts pointing out what others have said and correct them. I understand what everyone stood for
      because it's all because some of us may think with business-oriented mind and some with a art-oriented mind. :)


      Sorry to Bunnywink for going OT ^^" Sorry!