How would you feel if your doll was bootlegged?

Please note: Only after I finished writing this post did I realize what an insane tangent I went on! But I decided to post it anyways, with the belief that it is not hurting anyone to do so. Thanks!

There is no circumstance in which I would ever find myself in posession of a bootlegged doll, simply because I do the research. If I saw that someone was selling a bootlegged doll... I am not sure which action I would take. While the best thing to do would be to notify the company or person who's doll has been imitated, these situations often end with the seller pulling their doll off the market and disappearing before anyone can be brought to justice. I don't think it is right or reasonable to purchase the doll for any reason. However, if it in the case of an imitation being sold cheaply ($100), it might be worth it to spend the money simply to obtain the doll for destruction. If the $100 went to the bootleggers-at-large, it might have the opposite affect and only indirectly cause two more bootlegged dolls to show up on the market. But purchased second hand, it would be one small step in eliminating imitations from the market and protecting unsuspecting, uneducated buyers from making the same mistake. What could be more rewarding than shipping a bootlegged doll to volks including a note saying, "It is my understanding that this doll is an imitation of an original Volks mould. Instead of allowing the doll to circulate over the market, I thought you might have a better idea what to do with it." (wink wink!)

I would not suggest that anyone burn their dolls (even for rituals' sake =P ), because of the hazardous properties of the materials, paints, sprays, etc. Altough I would love to watch a bonfire of burning injustice and dance around it in victory, the resulting cancer and reproductive harm would hardly be worth it. O____o

There are several people who comment that the cost of materials and labor and facilities and time that it takes to produce one doll hardly adds up to what they are being sold for. This discussion is not about artist protection so much as it is the consumer conscience, but I still have to pull the artist into this argument! Did some of us forget that the artist's original ideas and personal skill also go into the manufacture of each and every doll? There are no standards for measuring artistry with currency, so I cannot give proof through a percentage, or other means. But I will say that it is the consumer that dictates the importance of the artist's unique vision. When purchasing a doll, the consumer is essentially telling the company "this doll is worth this amount of money!" and that includes the percentage of money that can only be attributed to the unique vision and abilities of the creator (and company as a whole). Even when a doll is selling for 450% of its original price, as long as consumers are buying it for that price, the doll will remain at that price.

I do not know economics. The terms and theories always go over my head. Unrelated to bootlegged dolls, if a second-hand doll is wildly overpriced, I will choose not to buy it. I might even warn other customers that a seller is trying to rip them off if I have the appropriate knowledge to do so. That is what my conscience tells me to do. What I am glad we can all agree on is that just because ball-jointed dolls are expensive, does not mean any consumer should use it as an excuse to purchase a doll they know to be bootlegged. As a personal choice, I refuse to buy from companies that are associated with such activities, even if it was in the past, or had to do with a group of individuals that are now "defunct". I could go on about bad business practices, but I would just be venting. Rediculously poor business choices are my pet peeve (even though it is almost hypocritical in the sense that I am not very business-minded myself!)

I would be interested in knowing where people are getting their estimated costs when making the "it doesn't add up" statement. Granted, the prices do excede the cost of making them in order to make a profit for the business. But I never got the impression that any plastics process (particularly one associated with finely detailed, percision work) was cheap! My step-father worked for Kodak for many years, and from what little I know about mould production and manufacturing, it is extremely costly.

(From this point on, I am going much farther into speculation, simply because I know zilch about engineering and manufacturing...) Companies that have demands from consumers to make high quality products need high-quality moulds. Those are moulds that are going to last as long as possible because the artist would want each object made from the mould to be as close to the original as possible. Since the moulds degrade over time, the shape will slightly alter with each use. Even before it has degraded completly, the mould can be discarded simply because it is not accurate enough.

Kodak owns its own manufacturing equipment and can make its own moulds, but not every artist who creates an original sculpt can also afford the costs associated with production. Individuals and small companies can turn to special mould-making companies in these cases. In the long run, however, an company that is striving to expand and support itself will need to invest money in its own equipment sooner or later. Relying on others takes extra time and money with each cast. This may all be true with "Injection Moulding", but "Liquid Resin Casting" (LRC) could be a heck of a lot cheaper and easier. And to my knowledge, LRC is the casting method used, no?

Reshana might know more about this, but anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Polyurethane resin (without any "filler" added that would undermine the resin's good qualities such as its durability) is one of the most expensive materials to cast with. As mentioned before, this is because of its quick cure time, ability to hold an abscene amount of detail and its durability, among other things.

Perhaps secondary in importance to an artist's original work is the particular formula or mixture or resin each company uses. These differences are what make Narin/Narae skin more transluscent than other dolls. It also determines how well colored pigment can be incorporated into the mixture. Additives used to slow or quicken cure times are usually chosen based on the process in which a company casts the doll parts, but these additives must be used carefully as they can have an effect on durability, translucency, etc.

If I am not mistaken, a company could obtain an international patent on its mould making and casting processes (altough it would have to be particular/unique enough to do so), but copyright laws often fail to protect the rights of artists on the international level.

While I wish there were more effective ways to bring bootleggers to justice, I also shy away from big government. I appreciate that there are copyright laws in place, but I also enjoy freedoms that might not exist if the law were any stricter. These freedoms mainly have to do with copyright law in the case of educational pursuits. Certainly not the inexcusable, heinous crimes perpetrated by imitation doll companies.

 

hedda, I found your post very interesting and well presented. And I did enjoy reading it. (The carcinogenic bonfire idea made me laugh!)

I think this a good point!

 

(disclaimer, the last time we dabbled in casting as opposed to just working on kits was 2001 so this info may be dated)

The high quality resin that they are using in these molds is VERY expensive. We used to buy it by the gallon and it comes in two parts, the resin itself and the curing/hardening chemical. Three drops of the chemical would harden a cup (I think, its been a while) of resin. When we bought it from DuPont we paid $86 per gallon with curing catalyst, and it wasn't the highest grade they had (which we couldn't afford).

Then you have the cost of the molds. What are they made from? Vulcanized rubber is usually used for medium temperature casting like lead, rallidium and plastics but they could (maybe) be using that, as it is very durable. Since resin is cold casted it would degrade very slowly. Then there's RTC (room temperature casting) molds, which is a soft rubber mold used mostly for LRC, its cheaper than vulcanized rubber. These are usually good for 100 castings before they start to degrade. Most resin is done RTC with vaccum to remove the bubbles.

As far as the artist/sculptor goes, unless they are in-house and paid a salary the companies buy the rights from an independant sculptor. Its not like book publishing where the creator is paid a percentage of royalties, but a flat fee per original sculpt the artist creates. The cost of paying for the artist is usually negligible in the case of the overall cost of the doll. Let say for arguement that he was paid $10,000 for a sculpt. The company raises the price of the doll by 10 bux and sells a thousand dolls, boom its paid for.

So mostly what you are paying for is the cost of manufacture, labor and materials. I would say that the base cost for an 60cm (from looking at their size, I haven't handled one yet) just for materials and not including labor is about $200 USD per doll, assuming that they are using the best quality resin that exists. So from the prices that I've seen so far their markup isn't that bad.

 

i wouldn't buy it because i hate when people con---cheat and steal.
i just can't support that.

 

I would die! Freak out and scream. I worked my butt off for both my dolls and if they were bootlegged I would be so mad. I can't imagne what people really would do if they found out. Horrible thoughts...

 

Sad to hear there are bootlegs. Particularly for the secondary market because not everyone knows the bootlegs are out there.

 

Pretty much this. I'd be annoyed that I'd been scammed, but A) it would have cost me much less and B) I'd still love my doll. I certainly wouldn't burn/trash/or otherwise get rid of a $100 doll. While you may not be able to sell/show it on DoA, I'd still be happy with it because I bought it. And while I'd never buy from the company again, it wouldn't be the end of the world either.

 

kinda bringing up an old-ish thread but anyways...i would be really angry, for people to rip off something that took many hours of care to create and so much time and effort to promote is disgusting to me but this isn't a perfect world so things like that happen.

this thread discussed something i discussed with my fiancee about copied dolls, he would be fine with buying a copied doll. he's not in the hobby but would use it as a model for creating some superhero doll. he equated the copied doll with pirating music or having an R4 card for the nintendo ds. i feel (my opinion) that these dolls are more than something impersonal like that and that they suffer much more monetary-wise than music artists or video game creators. i tried to explain the process of how these dolls are created and the time and craftmanship that goes into them, but he just said that i wasn't being logical....i guess i just can't see the logic when it's about a hobby that i love

 

I would not be able to keep the doll, because once I knew I wouldn't be able to forget the fact every time I looked at him. I believe in supporting artists/writers/musicians/performers that create what I like with my dollars. It also adds to the doll to know that an artist or designer you admire had a hand in its creation, however far back. (I so want a Vallico or K. Mayura One-off one day T_T)

Once upon a time I bought pirated anime stuff without fully understanding or believing that it wasn't legitimate stuff. Now that I've met and seen so many seiyuu in person, I couldn't imagine trying to rip them off that way. Plus I don't feel I own something unless I own a legitimate copy. The collector in me wants the real deal.

 

If my doll was a bootleg? >A<;; I guess I would have to rebuy he from the right company. (I wouldn't want to keep playing with a fake, and I wouldn't want to just get rid of her forever.) I would keep the fake one around to harvest for parts if I ever broke any. XD;;;

 

Well... I'd keep the doll. After all, I would have spent money and time in making a character out of a sculpt I bought not knowing it was a fake. I'd try and buy the real one from the right company, though, and probably make a sort of twin. Despite my doll being a fake, I don't think I could throw him/her away just because I didn't know better and some random idiot tried to make easy money out of my hobby.

It's no to say that I wouldn't be bothered, but I'd still keep the doll.

 

After reading everything here there were so many points I wanted to make, but I've forgotten most of them.

I'd just like to point out that this IS a collector's hobby and a real collector would want the read deal.
As far as "they're too expensive".... Well, if they're too expensive, don't get them. Or find a company that fits your price range. There are also ways of putting money aside. But for example of some cheaper bjs, look at pullip, for example.
Also, these companies probably just can NOT mass produce. I mean, it's PHYSICALLY possible but this is a niche hobby and not that many people are aware of it - the companies wouldn't sell enough (even at a reduced price) to make up for the costs of producing the dolls, etc.

A lot of people look at this hobby and say "Yeesh! That's too much!" and step away from it, and that's fine.
But if you're in it for the long haul, you just accept it.

The fact is, these businesses are small and they can't take the significant cost damage due to bootlegging.
It's illegal and it's wrong. And yes, maybe I would buy a copy purse, but (as it's been said before), it's not really going to hurt prada, plus, it's not something I'm passionate about! If I was an avid purse collector, then yes, I would pay for the real deal.

Nobody needs a doll like they need a purse though, so if you buy a bootlegged doll you're just going out of your way to hurt the company. ^___^ Not sure if that makes sense, it works in my head.

I would try very hard to avoid purchasing such a doll, and if i became aware anyone selling such a doll, I would report them to a proper authority (be it a doll company or simply a moderator here on DOA).

If I found out I had a bootlegged doll I would be floored, because of all the reasons I have stated and because I'm sure I would have paid top dollar for such a doll. I would try to alert the authorities and hopefully get my money back if possible. I would keep the doll until I bought the REAL THING, and like NK Chan, maybe the fake would be good for replacing parts, though I doubt it.

:3

 

I would be raaaaaaaaaaaging. If either of the SOOMs that I have got bootlegged... I'd really be furious. It's one thing to have the same kind of influence (Horns, hooves, etc) but if the doll is next to coppied.... it's just not fair, and not right. ><

It makes me anger just thinking about it!

 

If my doll was a bootleg, I would be... well... if he was super cheap i wouldn't mind, but he wasn't, and I'd be pretty angry for how much I spent on him. : \

 

Buying a copy purse is going to hurt Prada. In scale maybe not as much as a bootleg doll would hurt a doll company, but it would still hurt Prada. If someone deliberately cuts you with a knife in your arm, it's not going to be okay because "you just need a Band-Aid and you'll be fine after that". (It may not be the biggest deal in your life, but you would not think it's okay for other people to cut you.) Nobody really needs a doll, but nobody really needs a purse so much it becomes okay to buy a bootleg. You can buy a $10 purse through legal means.

Sadly you can't buy a BJD for $10 through legal means, although you can buy $10 dolls. If you really, really want a real BJD, you have to pay the price as production costs are high. It's not just the fancy name you're paying for.

The only way I can see myself end up with a bootleg doll is when someone sells me a second hand doll as the real deal that turns out to be a bootleg. I prefer to buy directly from the company or through endorsed representatives. I do my research before buying, but at times I buy from the second hand market. If a price looks too good to be true, I'll be wary for scammers or undisclosed damages, but if the price sounds reasonable and the pictures do not look questionable, I'm willing to buy second hand. It is all about trust in this matter. I'm willing to trust a seller that a doll is an original when they say it is an original.
Should someone knowingly or unknowingly sell me a bootlegged doll, I'll be very angry, because it means I've been deceived and did not get what I paid for. It would certainly damage my trust in the secondary market.