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Is it Wrong to Buy an LE Doll to get LE Outfits?

Aug 20, 2007

    1. Personally, I think all of these discussions like this are absolutely absurd.

      :/

      If you buy something. YOU alone own it. No matter if its a one off, limited or standard.
      YOU alone get to decide what to do with it.
      YOU alone get to decide what price to sell it for. Whether its half the original retail or 3x the original retail, its no one else's business or decision to make. If they dislike the price, they are not obligated to pay it. And the seller may eventually have their price lowered due to lack of interest.

      But its still their choice. Really, I think the scalping issue is pointless. It will either sell or not. But the pricing is only the business and decision of the doll's owner.

      Granted, I also think its ridiculous for people to expect a limited or discontinued sculpt to be sold around retail at all times. Lack of supply combined with demand equals inflation. Its how the market works. Some sellers are active in encouraging inflation. Thats their choice.

      The ONLY choice the buyer has in the situation is whether or not they're willing to pay it.
       
    2. I don't think it's the job of the hobbyist to worry about whether someone else "missed out". You either had the luck, the time, or the money to snag the LE or you didn't, and that's the way it goes. No one is anymore entitled to a particular LE than anyone else. Besides, by selling the doll they don't want, it does give someone else a chance to get the doll--not everyone is interested in the outfits just like not everyone who wants the outfits is interested in the doll.
       
    3. ^ This. I agree 100%. That's just the way the market works. Sometimes it's disappointing if you're the one missing out, but that's how it goes.

      I actually ran a split just to get an LE outfit pretty recently. The doll hasn't arrived yet, but both parties are happy. The other person in the split got the full doll that they wanted, (in a sculpt that isn't available as a standard edition anymore), for a good price. I'll get the beautiful outfit that is perfect for one of my girls. Yes, we are splitting up a limited set, but we're both happy with the results. So I think splitting a limited for the outfit is perfectly fine.
       
    4. Hmm interesting, that does make a bit of an assumption though that the person whose interested in purchasing the doll would not want the outfit. Because the LE outfits are often custom made for the doll, the outfits like the doll are LE and are part of the doll and people often would like to have them as a part of the doll. Also If you had actually read my entire post you would have seen that i that also said that "Personally i think it would be a shame to buy a LE doll just for the outfit, whilst i am not here to judge anyone who does, i wouldn't buy a LE doll just for the outfit, it would be a lot of money to spend just to get an outfit, sure you'll probably be able to get a fair price for doll provided you excluded the cost of the outfit when selling the doll." So if you'd read this you would have known that i was not debating whether or not you are able to purchase an LE doll or not. I was responding to the question posted by the op by saying that whilst i am not here to judge someone who does buy an LE doll for the LE outfit. I just feel that it's shame to outlay such an expense just to get the outfit and if a person were to on sell the LE doll, they would need to exclude the cost of the outfit from the selling price. At the same time i also believe that it wouldn't be fair to others if a person is just buying the doll for the outfit and not because they want or like the doll. If a person really wants a LE outfit they could try looking at the marketplace or ebay on the chance that someone with an LE doll may not want the outfit. Again these are just my thoughts.
       
    5. I know what you said (I actually do read people's posts), and I responded which is what people do in debate threads ;) I've seen that same idea that the buyer has some sort of responsibility to the community before(over LE splits, customizing LEs, etc), and that's one of the reasons I wanted to comment on it. To me, it's one of the odder attitudes that get adopted by some in the community. Obviously, anyone can purchase a doll for whatever reason as long as they have the resources available to snag one--however, that doesn't mean that people don't pass judgment on the buying habits of others, especially if they feel they personally missed out. This thread isn't about whether or not someone is able to buy, but if it's ethical, and you made it pretty clear that you don't think it's right (you say you don't judge, but then went on to say that it's unfair to other hobbyists--that is in fact a judgment--I'm guessing you mean you wouldn't say anything to someone that did that, which is the right way to handle it. However, you still brought it up in this thread, so it's going to get commented on).

      As for the first part of your response (I guess I'm going backwards today, lol) sure there are people who want the whole LE package, but not everyone does and opting not to buy/sell because some people would do it differently doesn't make a lot of sense. People have different tastes, different wants, different ways of doing things in the hobby and that's the way it is. There are somethings that you look out for your fellow hobbyists about like scammers, obvious scalping, quality issues etc., but stuff like this should be a complete non issue. At the end of the day, people are going to do what they want with their dolls, and that's the way it should be. This isn't food or medicine we're talking about, after all, these are luxury items. As for whether buying for the outfit makes sense cost wise--that's going to depend on a lot of factors--how sought after the doll is and how much the outfit is worth to the individual being the two big ones.

      By the way--you said that you shouldn't buy the doll for just the outfit but that you should look for that outfit in the marketplace. How is buying the doll and selling the outfit any different? Either way, one part of the set is getting sold to someone who does want that piece, so I'm not seeing the problem. Whether you sell the doll or sell the outfit, what you're basically dealing with is an LE split which is very commonplace.

      When there's limited numbers of a particular doll, there's always going to be some people who are disappointed no matter what anyone does. That's part of the territory when you're dealing with LEs.
       
    6. hmm interesting well somehow i don't think we are going to agree, you have your opinion and i have mine. lets just leave at that shall we.
       
    7. I dont think its wrong per se. it might be very well that someone wants the doll but doesnt want to pay the "LE" price for the outfit or extra head or whatever.

      As long as the person that is reselling the doll does not catch the scalper bug !
       
    8. It's fine to do this. The companies only give them clothes in the first place to give the doll a spark of personality and life. I think most artists appreciate when owners take a doll and make it their own.

      Even with one-offs I don't think the clothes particularly matter. I was under the impression that most people bought Volks one-offs for their face ups and Zoukeimura eyes. I even try to look for one-off outfits on the marketplace since Volks does a lot of prince type clothes for one-offs that they rarely do for LE's.
       
    9. I have little issue with this in general. In theory, I don't have an issue with it at all. One of the LEs I have, I bought in part because I loved his outfit, even if I was a little 'hmm' about the rest. Irony is, he now sits out adored endlessly, and... almost never wears the outfit. Oh, well.

      In the case of OOAK dolls and their outfits, it strikes me as problematic as an artist -- like this would be a fundamental matter of disrespect. I see these dolls as something a little different than a stock item to be customized; these dolls, to me, are unique and complete creations taken through the customization process from beginning to end by their creators and designers and made available to us. Can they still be customized further or split apart? Of course they can -- but I would, on the gut level, hate to see that happen much like I'd hate to see a custom car stripped for the parts just because someone can, and so on.

      If there was an item like this I was fond of and wanted for my dolls, I have the skills to make my own version of a design thanks to too many pattern drafting classes, and would do so.
       
    10. Do you mean a one-off or a completely original doll mold?
       
    11. I consider OOAK and one-off to be the same thing, so yes.
       
    12. Well unless the artists sell the doll with a contract indicating that it should not be separated. Then one probably can't even say it's a disrespect to the artist. OOAK or not, the buyer still take full control if what they want to do with it. So unless it is sold with a contract or a form of agreement that it will not be separated and so on, I don't think anyone can say it's disrespect if someone separated the doll and the clothing. Now obviously that's just a buyer's argument.

      From the artists perspective, just what makes something OOAK or a complete creation? Even for mass market dolls, just by putting on different combination of clothing it is more or less making everyone's doll OOAK already. One might consider your doll creation as OOAK because it is your own work. But doll owners probably consider their dolls as OOAK even if it's mass produced because their creation takes on higher level including doll, clothing, accessories, environment, may even have doll's name, doll's characteristics, and so on. Just because it is a completed creation to you surely cannot be the reason to force others to think that's a complete creation to them.

      As an artist one do however have to freedom to choose how to let go of your creation. So obviously one can say as part of purchasing this creation, you do not wish the owner to take the doll and their clothing apart. Or even as part of purchasing this creation, buyer agree not to take the doll and their clothing apart. I would agree it would very much be a disrespect if the artist specifically indicated that they do not wish the doll and clothing to be taken apart yet the buyer did it anyway. Otherwise, I would say everyone has their freedom to think what a complete creation is and everyone has their own freedom to make their creation. There's no wrong or right way to it. So I'd say if an artists don't like to see their creation be taken apart, then make sure that's part of your selling clause. Otherwise, please don't think bad of the buyer for something one never expressed explicitly.
       
    13. I used to find this thread quite strange because, I thought, which way it can be wrong, people are just doing what they want. If they want an outfit and are okay with spending a lot of money to get it with a doll - then fine.
      But recently I saw a few threads on Marketplace from people who bought a limited doll, stripped him/her from their outfit and were trying to sell a nude doll for more than a full set cost originally. And personally I find it distasteful and close to scalping. Sure thing, everyone has the right to do whatever they want but I have the right to feel whatever I want about it.
       
    14. ^^ Yep in the case you described ans especially since they are trying to sell the doll for more than full set cost originally, I would very much agree with you. It is definitely not something I like myself either. If one wants the clothing only, well that's fine. One probably should deduct a fair price of the clothing from what the doll full set's price if they want to pass on the doll itself. Otherwise it is just taking advantage of the whole LE thing and pure profit taking.
       
    15. Well while it's fine to personally believe that, as art is very subjective, maybe you'd like to read what some of the Volks artists have to say about the dolls they make, one-offs and all.

       
    16. Then I suppose you should read the first lines of the post you seem to take such profound issue with -- where I say precisely that.

      I hadn't read your post ahead of mine and had instead replied to the initial post question, so I realize this is likely a touchy issue for you to see such a strongly differing opinion about it, but it wouldn't be a debate in the first place if there wasn't a potential issue to debate in the first place, would there? No.

      You -- and ph03n1x -- should also take note of the fact that nowhere do I say this is wrong, evil, or somehow should be shunned or punished in some fashion. I said it struck me as problematic and disrespectful -- which is exactly what my feelings are on the matter.

      I would also love to know the context of the quotes you're listing -- if they are general commentary about BJDs designed by Volks, or specifically in regard to their one of a kind creations. Somehow, I strongly doubt they are in comment on the latter.

      Also, while I realize they are the grail of all wisdom to some, quotes from Volks sure as heck aren't the be-all, end-all of existence to me in any fashion whatsoever -- but let's look at a few of them.

      "No matter how good the bowls or vases are, they can't be completed if they are not used properly in the world."

      So if breaking it into a hundred pieces and making a mosaic out of it instead is how the buyer chooses to use the bowl or vase, do you think the creator would be just as content as they would if someone put flowers in them or used them for dinnerware?

      "That being the case, the creators like us give SDs with our style of technique and thoughts over to the owners. Please love and adore them as much as you can."

      Which, to me, does not translate as "strip our one of a kind, unique vision for the bits you like and discard the remainder". That doesn't strike me as falling in line with "love" or "adoration". At all.

      "I always think that creation needs affection and passion. You can't create a good thing when you can't give it any affection. It is that affection for others, to wish to make them happy."

      I don't see how this quote relates to the debate or supports your point in any specific way, other than a general statement about how Volks cares about their creations and hopes their passion and affection for their work helps fashion a final product that will bring their customers joy. It says nothing about customizing or lack thereof, and it could easily be turned around: OK, they have all this affection and passion for their creation -- so should that not be respected in the case of unique artworks? I personally think it should.

      "What I pay attention to the most is to make an SD that the owners can change the look of into exactly what they want when they want to change face ups, glass eyes, wigs, and the overall image of SD. I especially give some freedom in the shape of the face so that it will be suitable for many types of face-ups."

      Again, please show me specifically where this relates to one-offs. This certainly seems to be a general quote about the design of a sculpt and making it and the end product flexible enough for a variety of looks -- not creating a complete look from top to bottom to be sold as a one of a kind package based on an existing sculpt, and it does -nothing- to support the idea that Volks can't wait for people to get their one-offs and break them up for parts. I could be completely wrong, and this could be a quote specifically discussing OOAK dolls -- but I somehow doubt that and will wait to be proven wrong.

      You don't have to like the fact that I strongly disagree with the practice in this specific instance, and it certainly isn't going to stop you from doing whatever you choose with your money -- it's not like you need my approval to do that, after all.
       
    17. I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all!

      It can lead to a lot of win-win situations where person A gets the outfit, person B gets the doll they really wanted, etc! :D
       
    18. gee i hope there's nothing wrong w/ that since i've done it several times! :)
       
    19. I agree that's oaky to buy a doll for th eoutfit and then sell it.

      I mean, how else are you going to get the outfit x_x and the doll would make someone else happy when you sell it :'D
       
    20. This is exactly how I feel on the subject. I'd have edited down except the entire post is so good it needed to be kept.

      I actually have an LE bought third hand without his outfit, and while I wouldn't mind having the outfit just to have it, I was thrilled he came without it because his price was so much better. Granted he's not a highly in-demand pricey LE, though.

      If someone was to post a split that they wanted just the outfit from Dollmore's Broken Ice Tears Pado boy, for example, I'd jump on that so fast! I'm dying to have the doll but the outfit is just an extra running up the price for me. I like it, and would probably use parts of it if I was to buy the whole set, but really I just want that doll in that color with that faceup - and will likely never get it because of the price. Someone else buying the doll just for the outfit would be a great thing for me, if I spotted their sale post in time to buy him. I love that Soom offers it's limiteds with the outfits as options rather than requirements.