Is it Wrong to Buy an LE Doll to get LE Outfits?

I agree. I don't know if I would ever buy a LE for the outfit... but if the right sculpt came along I would buy a LE for the doll and resell the outfit/accessories (for a fair price, of course).

 

I bought my two LEs primarily for the dolls. They're not high demand LEs-I've seen them going for less than original price on the marketplace. Their outfits, quite frankly, leave something to be desired in terms of fit and quality-a sash tore right off one of the pieces the first time I handled it. My vampire Red's shirt and vest are usable as they are, but his pants are really chintzy polyester and Soah's dress fits her like a bag. Seriously. One of these days I might take it up, but I haven't bothered to yet. So she never wears it, and he only wears the pieces that I like. I've bought them different wigs as well-I like hers better than his, which didn't suit him at all. I do try to keep their face-ups nice-I have unpainted reminisce heads for both of them, and they wear those when I'm patterning. But the day that those face-ups start looking worn, I'm going to wipe them and do what I want. And I will probably find some high-end glass for their eyes when the face-ups go, because I don't particularly care for their silicone eyes and the way they collect every speck of dust. If that makes me a bad owner, so be it-I am not planning on selling either one of them and I do love them. I'm sorry if that makes me disrespectful of Rainy's vision, but I think they're better off being loved and played with than stuck wrapped up in a box to preserve their LE specialness. Which is what I'd have to do to keep them pristine because I'm hard on face-ups.

 

Short answer: No =3

 

Another option to just going out and buying a LE doll just for the outfit is to commission the outfit from a seamstress. It may not be exactly the same, but it is guaranteed quality!
My mother wanted the one-off delf moon, but he was waaayy over her budget for a first doll so she commissioned his robes from a seamstress from ebay. She was able to pick the colors, cloth type, everything! The robe cost a little over $100 and it is exactly what she wanted from the LE outfit!

So buying/splitting a LE doll isn't the only way to get the outfit.

 

This doesn't really help if the outfit you want comes with specific shoes or a hat, as there aren't a lot of shoemakers and milliners in the hobby who do comparable work to that of companies like Volks.

 

Yep I understand that's your feeling. Although if you read my post, you'd see that my point is the following. If the artist want his/her wishes to be respected and therefore avoid being disrespected by the buyer and then leads the artists feeling that the buyer is disrespectful, the artist better express his/her wishes explicitly when they make the sale. If you don't ask the buyer not to take it apart then the buyer is not being disrespectful when he/she take it apart. And so like in my previous post, if it is explicitly stated that artists does not wish the doll to be taken apart, and the buyer did it anyway then it's disrespectful. If it is not stated, then well all I can say that this feeling is so single sided and give no chance to buyer even to respect the artists' feeling. So yes you are free to feel what you want to feel, but if you don't put you feeling out when you make the sale, you are not giving anyone a chance to respect you feeling at all.

Let's say you are that potter, what if another artist broke your pottery into a hundred pieces and made a super good mosaic with high praise around the world. What if that artists then said your pottery was the key ingredient (the unique color, the unique pattern, the unique shape, etc.) that without it he/she can't possibly make his/her master piece. What would you say then? Would you stand up and tell the world that you feel he/she is being disrespectful by breaking your pottery? Or would you happily accept the fact that you creation is used in another great creation? You have to answer honestly. Then ask yourself what if the same thing happened, but the end result is just a bad piece of work or even just junk. Do you feel differently? If you truly will do the same thing in both instances, then I say great. You know where you stand. You can ignore my next block of the comments. Although my comments about you need to express your feeling to be respected by others still stands true none the less.

Now if you feel differently, then you have to ask, why so? What's the difference. Then taking that a bit further, who is to judge a piece of art is good or bad. Some art piece where judged as junk when it was created yet later on being recognized. Artists probably cannot create a master piece without a lot of junks. So who's really to judge if one can use something and one cannot use something. For as long as the creation was made with the artists' love and materials are used with care, who's to say one way or another. So back to dolls, doll owner are in some way artists themselves. They are creating something more than just a doll body with clothing. So who's to say one is good or bad. What if the new doll owner gave the doll even better piece of clothing, that's better than what the original artist gave the doll? What if the that new combination won praises more than the original creation? And then what if it doesn't? The only thing I can say is for as long as it is used with love and care, then I'd be okay. But of course that's just me.

If you are an artists that feels strongly for you creation and the preservation of that creation, well then don't sell it is first thing that come into my mind. Since by selling it you effectively allowing the new owner to do anything except explicitly prohibited in the sales contract. But no, ignore the first thing come into my mind, because I know it needs to be sold. Then put it in your sales agreement, then honestly to me anyone breaking that agreement is wrong and not just disrespectful but being dishonest and not keeping to the contract. This way you also give everyone a chance to respect your wishes. Instead of letting every buyer guesse what you want them to do, and then feel bad about it when buyer don't honor what your wish that you have never expressed. See, those comments from Volks just re-enforce their wishes that every customer can get their perfect doll. Not the Volks artists' perfect doll but the customer/buyer's perfect doll no matter what it is. OOAK or not, they still want the buyer to be able to execute their vision. Therefore Volks never said anything about you cannot do to the doll to make your vision come true. After all everyone has their own idea of what they want their doll to be even if the changes may not agree with everyone else. Then again that's their belief and hence naturally there's nothing in the sales clause of their dolls. If you believe differently, then put it in your sales clause and express it to your customers.

Back to just buy the LE doll for the clothing and sell the doll. Well so in their mind, their perfect doll needs that clothing. But they don't really want the doll because that doll is not part of their vision. So they turn around and sell the doll to someone who can use it and want it (as oppose to junk it). If that's the condition, I say it was executed with probably the purest intention. For as long as the LE doll artists never expressed as part of the sales that the doll and clothing should not be separated. There's nothing wrong with that. Volks in this case probably even encourages it. Because they want their customer to get their perfect doll through customization. And getting clothing for their doll is customization even though you had to get another full doll for it. Scalping or not on the doll body then is a separate issue. I dislike scalping, but just a regular sale of the body with price factored in the exclusion of the clothing, that's not scalping.

 

if i had the money to buy fullsets to get the clothes i would too.

i guess i can see feeling guilty over depriving someone who really wanted the doll and the clothes were just gravy, but LE are just more rare that way. they go fast!

don't feel bad. how many times have i bought cereal just to get the toy inside! XD

 

I've bought two limiteds primarily for the outfit. One was a limited by sales time. One was a 1 of 10 limited. Do I feel guilty about either of these? Sure don't. I got the clothes I wanted and others quickly pounced on the dolls when I put them up for sale. As far as I'm concerned it was no different than any other split on the MP, except that I did it *after* I received the doll.

It was a win/win situation for both of us. I got the clothes and accessories I wanted, and they got the doll they wanted without having to pay out the nose for all the little things that usually skyrocket said doll's price.

If it is so wrong to covet only one part of a doll, or to separate a limited from its parts, why are limited splits (for Soom MDs or Iplehouse's circus, for example) so popular? Aren't we still destorying the artistic vision and integrity of the fullset so we can get a head or clothes or hooves?


Edit:

This made me smile.

 

I said I disagreed, and we're debating, as you pointed out, so I'm allowed to do that. I never said this was a touchy subject. Again, this is merely a debate, and not an argument, right? At least it is to me. I don't think anything can be debated if you get your emotions get the best of you.

I'm really taken aback by the hostility I'm perceiving here. When did I use the words 'wrong, evil, or somehow should be shunned or punished'? I merely said "Here's what real doll artists have to say about the dolls they make" because I thought it would be good to know what artists who have actually experienced this took away from it.

They're in the context of "Why do you create SD/what do you like best about making them for future customers" being asked of them. Most of Volks' dolls are limiteds, so this is a general commentary, but it is about short run dolls.

The "grail of all wisdom" sounds like "anti-Volks perceived elitism" being thrown around. When did I ever say "Volks artists know more than any other doll companies'? I didn't. If someone else wants to make their opinions on sculpting dolls known, in a book form, then I would love to read it. So far Volks is the only company to do that. So they're the only company I quote. I didn't imply that quotes should "settle" the matter, I merely posted them to get some insight into what actual doll artists think.

If the creator is selling the item then they have no control over what anyone who buys does with it. I think someone who has sold dolls he's sculpted for decades realized this a long time ago and has since come to terms.

Really? Because to me it says "do whatever you want to make it Another Yourself" since that is Zoukei-mura and Volks' motto.

"It is that affect for others, to wish to make them happy," Kitamura is saying he sculpts the dolls he makes for others to enjoy. It is not up to him to dictate how they are enjoyed.

I don't have to get a specific quote on Ohashi talking about one-offs. His sculpts are used in one-offs all the time. He sculpted Momoko which is actually a character based off of a novel/movie so he knew very well that people would buy her and make her not be Momoko Ryugasaki.

I didn't say I didn't like it, I said I would debate it since this is a debate forum.

 

there is nothing wrong with this at all, I am more often in love with the doll, not the outfit and often wish I could buy it separately. The only way for me to do this is with splits and resales. I see a lot of opinions out there from the persepctive of "what would the artist think?" and the "but we own it so it is our right to d as we please". All I can say is the Mona Lisa is still the Mona Lisa if you take it out of its frame and put it in a new one. We are not talking about destroying things, we are talking about altering, separating parts, using one artist's vision to create our own beauty out of it. I have to tell you I like the Mona Lisa, but I certanly would not put it in that frame. Anyone wanna go in a split? it is a pretty frame, and a pretty painting, you get the frame, I get the painting? no? but would it be wrong?

Hell no

The painting is what it is

The frame is what it is

The doll is what it is and the outfit is what it is.

Some people do not like splitting ltds, just because they are limited and keeping them together keeps their value or lets it appreciate.
Some people do not like taking toys out of the original packaging for the same reason.

Good for them, but gimme the damn toy to play with!

 

I would totally do it, and sell the doll. I don't see why I should be obligated to keep something I don't want. Now, I wouldn't mark it up, and I'd probably take some off the price to reflect that it's the naked doll, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

I wouldn't buy the fullset if the outfit was also LE but available on its own, even if it was substantially cheaper to buy the fullset and sell the doll. That's skiving a little too close to scalping for my tastes.

 

And that's perfectly fine. Again, I am saying that this is my personal feeling on the matter, not that it should be some kind of rule that, if violated, something untoward should happen to the people that break it.

I'd been interested in acquiring certain body for a head I have floating around. The company that makes the body has expressed -- though I only have this second-hand from someone here on the forum -- that they don't sell separate bodies because they don't want to see heads from other companies on their bodies. I have no concrete proof of that statement, and yet I changed my plans to get one of the full dolls to get the body, then just practice faceups on the head that came with it (because mercy knows I need the practice badly) simply because of that. So do with that information what you will; I suspect it will perhaps illuminate the matter somewhat.

The what-ifs could sprawl on into infinity here -- that's my honest answer. Further, a doll outfit is something too easily reproduced, yes, even -well- for someone with skill, for me to say I agree with this. Let's say it would be easy enough for someone to make the same component pieces as exist in that bowl themselves, but instead of choosing that route, they smashed up your piece. Yes, no matter what the end result, it would annoy the pants off of me -- and -that- is the perspective I'm coming from here.

To be entirely clear: yes, I am a working artist. I create both finished pieces and component works for others to use in their artwork in different media. The component works, which are 3D media, are designed to be customized just like any doll is -- bend, spindle, and mutilate at will; you bought it, it's yours to make into anything you like within the context of an image and the license agreements attached. The finished works, which are complete as-is, are something I take a completely different view of. As a result, yes, I have seen the wretched and the sublime done with both in real experience over a period of years, and yes, this is a considered opinion and one born of something far more tangible than what-ifs on a forum.

I suppose you can consider it hostile all you like? I can no more change your feelings about that than you can mine about splicing one of a kind dolls. That would be 'being deliberately silly with examples to demonstrate the notion that there's nothing anyone can do about disagreement on such a matter in the first place', but apparently that doesn't come through.

I don't collect Volks dolls. They aren't my style. I have no special interest or disinterest in the company, and have stated as much elsewhere, repeatedly. If you want to think that's an anti-Volks attitude, I suppose you're entitled to -- I just don't think their words carry any special weight that the words of others do not.

And yet, it's all Volks quotes when even on the Q&A boards of other companies, or in their other website material, there are often comments -- no matter how brief -- about their process and their wishes for their dolls. It's Volks cited to someone else as "there aren't a lot of shoemakers and milliners in the hobby who do comparable work". Perhaps I am simply reading far too much in to the repeated citing of Volks, Volks, Volks as the standard against at least some people are clearly judged in your very own words?

Their words alone used to demonstrate what "real doll artists" think -- again, your words. With no other voices noted it surely seems to say that it's meant to represent all "real doll artists", or that the voices of others are irrelevant to the point at which they don't even warrant a cursory glance around for the information. There are sometimes special conditions attached to sales like those ph03n1x mentioned that indicate a potentially different view that are generally known within the community, and quotes from Volks may represent a different perspective but they do not erase those conditions from existence. Are they meant to override them? Even someone relatively new to the hobby such as myself has somehow managed to become aware of their existence, so the information is certainly available. There is an entire thread about that and it doesn't need to be doubled up here, and I'll simply leave that noted where it is, and this itself is an absurd tangent I'm going to drop.

I think I was pretty explicit when I said one of a kind, OOAK, one-off, etc. Short run, different. Limited run, completely different. Quite frankly, if it's an edition of two, I will fail to care what happens to the parts in the same way I do when it's a one of a kind creation where head sculpt, faceup, eyes, and outfit are all designed to go together to make a unique creation.

This, as has been pointed out by others, is what most people do when they get a stock doll, or even a normal limited doll, themselves, and is exactly what the Volks artists seem to be discussing as something precious that they wish to encourage. Just as I respect that effort on the part of the collector or end user even if I don't like the resulting look, I think that should be respected of Volks artists when they do it -- and that is precisely how I see OOAK/one-off dolls created by them or any other company. Is that perhaps more clear?

I have seen numerous threads of heads for sale that state that the faceup -will- be wiped before sale, or other 'character' elements will be removed before any parts would be sold of their character made from a stock or limited run doll. If these things had no relevance or value whatsoever to anyone, why would this ever happen? Because in these instances the whole is intended to be more than the sum of its parts.

You'll notice I never said that the person may not have come to terms with what may happen to the item, or that the buyer has no right to do whatever they wish with it, so I really can't see why this is relevant. In fact, the very phrase that you perceive as being 'hostile' should indicate this stance rather clearly.

If you want me to consider the quote relevant or on point to this specific issue, actually, yes, you would need to get a quote about a one-off he designed from top to bottom to sell being stripped of the outfit and the doll sold off to someone else for me to consider it a glowing recommendation to do precisely this. And, yet again, we're back to one artist at Volks not speaking for all "real doll artists" in the universe, but of one man's view which is expressed as a generality rather than a specific opinion about this issue.

Let me ask you a more direct question: if you bought a one-off from Volks, and decided to keep the outfit and sell off the doll, would you tell them you did this? I am not talking about whether the company realizes this probably happens all the time. I am not taking in to consideration the fact that most companies do not necessarily care about constant updates on their products' usage. I am asking you directly if you would you have even a moment's pause in telling the artist at Volks what you did with their one-off? (NOTE: I am absolutely -NOT- recommending that anyone do this, ever, for reasons that should be obvious from the remainder of this post.)

 

Uuuh yeah...

I can't but help laugh a little on the "is it right or wrong" threads.
I think the real question should be who cares. A great follow up would be and why?
These are dolls and doll clothes. I hardly see where something so mundane should be given any weight in the moral or ethical debates as to right and wrong.
Besides I haven't met anyone whose been able to confirm the absolutes of right and wrong.
A great quote is "the only absolute truth is that we know nothing".
They're doll clothes...
​

 

Okay, your stand on this well received here. All I can say is as an artists that sells your creation, you might be just thinking too much and apply too much to yourself. Loosen up a bit might make you feel better. Like the doll example you have given, if you have no concrete statement from the company and that the company does not have in it their sales statement, then there's no reason you cannot do whatever you want to do with it. I don't see respect has anything to do here when what's in question is not even concrete. It is way too easy to feel bad just about lot of people if you are so up tight strict about it. Going through this thread's answers and you should see how many people believe that they can do whatever to what they have purchased. And honestly I would say even if the artists express their wish of so and so, a lot of people will still believe that they can do whatever they want to do with the item they purchased. Obviously everyone that answers nothing wrong with it will make you sad if they ever be your customer. That's why I say loosen up a bit on this probably makes you life easier. But of course that's your choice of what to believe in. Personally I don't make my living as an artists but I did make some income from my artistic creation. Now not being making a full living on artistic creations, I can only say what applies to me for those side incomes. To me once an item is sold it's sold, my customer can do whatever with my artistic creation final or not for as long they don't violate my sales clauses (which is more of legal thing than any). That I think generally is how one as the creator and one as their consumer can have a happy relationship together. And I'd rather be happy for all of my customers than feel bad about what they going to do with my creation. Anyway, that's all I have to comment on. Best wishes to your artistic career.

 

I don't see a problem with buying the doll just for the outfit, but I personally think better of a person that opens a split for it, rather then buying it and reselling it later - sometimes for more money. Especially when it comes to limited dolls, whether they be limited in time, or number of dolls to be sold.

For example, Luts's beautiful limited Breakaway boys. I can understand buying it for the outfit, but while searching on a whim one day I came across a few sellers with breakaways, where only the doll itself was being re-sold. I am not pointing fingers, but I found it astonishing that some were almost the same price as the fullset. I know that price of course is at the buyer's discretion, and they ARE rare dolls, but I somehow feel that this is a bit wrong, since someone else might have wanted the whole set and simply not been able to get it at the time, and the seller might be taking advantage of this.

But in general, no, I don't think it's wrong. So long as the person, if they resell the doll itself, are courteous to others wishing to buy the left over parts.

 

That's dumb. Of course it's not. You can buy a LE doll keep one of the hands and through the whole rest of it in the garbage if that's what you feel like doing. Enjoy!

 

I really do not see why this would be a problem =3

Hey, that's why Splits are accepted =D

I am currently looking for an outfit that I could only get by being the fullset doll.... If I cant find it in the MP, or I dont have enough money for the whole doll, I'll just try to find someone to split with =3

And anyway, most of the time LE find new owners really fast so even if I do end up getting the doll for the outfit, I wont really mind since I'm sure to make someone happy =3

 

Nope. I don't think its a problem or anything. There are a great many outfits that are a part of a limited doll package I would like far more than the doll itself.

 

Well, as someone who just bought a limited edition Elf Ducan full set outfit; clothing, wig, and eyes too... I see nothing wrong with spreading the love around. Someone might have a vision for their doll that involves an outfit while someone else might have one that uses a doll and if you have the chance to have that dream happen for one of your dolls or characters? Go for it. It shouldn't be between 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes down to it. If one of the pieces would just sit in a box never to see the light of day and someone out there was sad they missed out on that very piece in that box sitting in the back of your closet. There's just no point in having it if someone else could be using it and loving it.

 

I don't see anything wrong with it. And hey, for limiteds that are only restricted to order period and not a certain number, you're just allowing that many more exist in the world for those who want one but can't order during that period!