Rule Update Mirodoll banned from DoA | updates in post #2 for September 2018

^^^^This^^^^
The 70cm Female Body came out in 2014, and yet was never banned DESPITE the controversy regarding it. I now own this body because I thought it was a legit doll. I would never willingly support ANY recasting/stealing. I thought, because the mods didn't ban it, that it was approved. And it was approved for the the last 4 years. I accepted the judgement of the mods and now I have a body that I don't know what to do with it. ​

 

I thought you were going to practice modification?

 

Same theory applied to justify banning Mirodoll here tho... scan/recast and slim them down and mod joints. Besides, I never said they were copying IH, yet, you knew exactly what I was talking about, so clearly, they aren't guilty free. It's not only the body, but the heads too.

My point is... it's all speculation. The difference is that Mirodoll is REALLY cheap.

 

There is definitely a cultural difference between what is considered stealing in the US and what is considered stealing in other countries, and not just within the context of dolls. I work in academia and at the beginning of the semester we have to go through in very minute detail what is and isn't considered academic dishonesty under university policy because some students from other countries (not just China or even Asian countries) have very different ideas about what is OK or not. I've had students just casually tell me that they had downloaded answer keys or obtained old assignments to check their answers because it didn't even register with them that doing so might be wrong. In their mind, being able to check their answers on homework was a normal part of learning the material and a valid strategy for making sure they got a good grade. If you didn't check your work before it got graded, it was thought of like...not doing your work completely? Not doing the best you possibly could to succeed? It wasn't like they were doing it covertly and got caught either (although I've seen a fair share of that too), a lot of the ones that I've caught it was because they were talking about it openly because it never occurred to them that it would be considered wrong. Not to say that we should be required to adapt to someone else's standards, but it's something to be aware of and in my experience a lot of problems can be averted by making it clear beforehand what level of being inspired by, checking, or referencing other work is acceptable.

 

And cheap is bad! Cheap must be punished! The mods said so. There are consequences for being cheap because it means you're doing naughty things! Or else you wouldn't be cheap! ("However, we believe their low prices are a direct result of them stealing the work other companies have done. With the recent trademark situation, the mod team feels that we cannot allow Mirodoll to continue on as they have been with no consequences." Despite recasts generally costing even twice as much.)

I don't think they necessarily /meant/ it that way, but that's what they said. Ergo, Impldoll is not cheap enough to attack. (Yes, I am getting sassy. Sorry not sorry.)

So Soom steals horns, Fairyland steals steampunk weapons (got it right that time!), Impl makes dolls clearly meant to hybrid with Iplehouse, etc etc. Seems to Be a Thing in the dolly world... on that side of the world... where they have no copyright laws.

Oh and for those wondering why DoA did not ban the 70cm girl though they had suspected her, it's because Dollstown didn't raise a stink or pursue it. That's stated in the very first post. That is neither here nor there, just an answer to some people who were wondering.

 

I was modding the body for a charcter. The mods were going to be for the purpose of giving my doll a body suited for her. There isn't much of a point in modding for hours on end a body that can no longer be used, right? ​

 

What do you mean 'can no longer be used'? Of course it can! You just can't show it off on DOA anymore. Which is a shame. But DOA is not the law- they don't get to tell you what you can and cannot have. You bought it to mod for a character, so keep doing that. All DOA gets to tell us is what can be showed off on their forum or not.

There are other places to show her off though, like Dollieh Sanctuary or Facebook.

 

I agree with you there. Impldoll, imo, is not a company I would bother with because I don't see a lot of integrity in their work. Bluntly speaking, I do believe they copy (is a more literal meaning of the word) from IH. Like you said, they charge more and draw little attention. Their dolls are a half price IH. Now, the first time I saw the 70cm girl from Mirodoll i knew it was a copy of Dollstown (a body just too unique not to be recognisable), so I stayed away from the company. It was not until recent that I learnt how cheap it really is. They've been selling more and more and ... to be honest, they can't afford to make their own dolls, produce so many different bodies and shapes and be that cheap. But i feel that if they were charging $300 for their bodies, people would not having such debate.

I wish DoA would be less biased against cheap companies (maybe they aren't, but that's how it feels to me based on this). If you are going to ban one based on perception, then ban all companies who are clearing stealing from others.

 

@dollsoflace
@charlyss

You guys rock (and whoever made fun of Iplebodies since I agree). I think the order of events could have been different and transparent to the community as an ongoing affair. That would have given Miro and the community time to react. Maybe lessened the shock going on here.

Yes, it's a fine line, but let's remember that recasting is creating a Soom and selling it as a Soom. That's different then making your legs look like a Dollstown, though I'm not saying that's right, but definitely not the same thing. While that's still huge for us, I can see where it would be less so to others. Not sure there are infinite ways to make a leg joint but definitely doll makers should be careful how "inspired" the overall gestalt is. If you're gonna make a certain joint you might not want to take the leg shape along with it. Obviously, the entire situation is nuanced as some of these Mirodoll bodies aren't exactly new and passed muster for some time. Now watch the big Miro sell off since elsewhere I'm seeing people express fear they'll never be able to get rid of their bodies. No one is paying attention to the "only these bodies" disclaimer. I think the book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds" talks about these things. Glad I don't have stock in Mirodoll!

Personally, I think all doll makers should be banned for ripping off Hans Bellmer.

 

I wouldn't say it unusable. It's still your doll. Even if you didn't intend to buy a modded copy, you did pay for it and you can't un-buy it. You may not be able to share the body on DoA, but that doesn't mean you cant use the body, practice mods on it or resell at a different marketplace. It's ultimately up to you and what your comfortable with.

 

oops, accidental post

 

Hmm i see some posts where the theft is being chalked up to cultural difference or implied to be more acceptable when done there, in some recent posts. Worth remembering:

—there are a number of Chinese companies who have been recasted or copied and have responded by entreating collectors not to support counterfeits, so clearly the impropriety of doll counterfeiting is known within the community
—there is a thriving Chinese collectors community of pro-artist owners, and in fact it is through those collectors’ amazing efforts that we knew about the stuff Luo tried to pull recently and companies were contacted.

....so it’s just kind of weird that people are saying the sculptor has cultural reasons to think that was s cool and okay thing to do. I think people might just have the erroneous impression copying is considered ok because it *is* the case that laws there make it harder to prosecute and shut down, but...that doesn’t equal the doll community not knowing it’s bad lol.

Just going to point out that pretty much every similar case to this one where a controversial resemblance occurred has involved more pricey companies (Leeke, Dollmore, Ariadoll....there was a pretty good writeup of controversies on Armeleia’s blog at one point, let me see if I can find it.) Also: the famously affordable Bobobie and Resinsoul, who operate at Miro’s price point and also have been around for longer, have notably never come under scrutiny by mods/of this type. Because they don’t copy.

 

I am probably going to be attacked for this, but I feel like people are missing the point by about a thousand miles, and all this finger pointing at other companies is getting ridiculous. It's not about them. Not right now.

Impldoll is obviously influenced by Iplehouse (and Soom). As are a lot of companies. Iple created the giant muscleman, it was popular. Of course other companies are going to jump on the bandwagon. It happens.
Does impldoll look like Iplehouse? Sure, at a glance. Are they nearly identical? No. Musculature is different. Joints are WAY different. Silhouettes are different. (I own both, I look a them often, they are not the same.) Influence is not recasting.

I see Leekeworld thrown around in this thread too -- the DD doll they were accused of copying was a 1/6 doll, I believe. Leeke's is 1/4. They weren't using digital 3D technology, they didn't steal, they sculpted that doll by hand. Even though it was obviously influenced by (and you could even say copied from) the DD doll, it was not a recast.

What Miro is being accused of is not influence. They are being accused of actually taking someone else's work, modding it and reselling it --> On the listed bodies. That's very different than being influenced by. Or even copying. If you see a faceup and copy it, it still won't be 100% identical to the original. It's still going to be different. Taking someone else's doll, sanding the muscles off and changing the joints does not make it ok to cast and sell as their own (If that is true, but they don't seem to be denying that's what they did). Taking someone's art off DA and running it through a PS filter doesn't give you the right to sell it yourself. Conventions will ban you for that. This is the same thing - scanning a doll via 3D tech and changing it (barely.) so it can be sold somewhere else is stealing. It's the same as a recast (only it's a reprint technically?), since this is how dolls sculpted in a 3D program have their molds made to cast in resin.

Looking at someone's art, thinking "ooh, that's cool, I want to do something like that!!" and then doing something similar yourself, is not stealing. It's just not. Ask any artist who they were influenced by.

The Screaming and yelling, accusations and finger-pointing happening in this thread are uncalled for and unhelpful.

Am I upset about it? Sure, I own Miro bodies too. They are a great inexpensive option. If Mirodoll is truly a reputable company, they will move on from this, prove they're never going to let it happen again, become unbanned and life can move on. As it's been pointed out an unnecessary amount of times, other companies have done the same thing and survived.

 

I think Impldoll catered more than copied. They made heads and bodies to be paired successfully with IH as the latter is very hard to properly hybrid. And since IH engineering is not the best, a lot of people don't like the bodies. Enter Impldoll. It may be a fine line, but they seemed to fill a niche, IMO. They catered to those who wanted IH hybrids, so they're similar but not copies.

I know of Korean companies that have entreated people not to copy, but not Chinese companies. That means little more than I just don't know of them, not that it doesn't exist.

 

While it’s not about them of course, other companies are being brought up mostly to assure people that Miro isn’t the only company to face (and survive) this kind of situation, since many seem not to believe it, stating that they’re being targeted over price or may permanently be affected. Examples are the best way to make that point that most of us could think of ^^;

 

Which is what they are already doing. I think the dolls left on their site are very much their own without question. The bodies in question can no longer be bought and will be replaced. They will be sculpted off original artwork I will supply them. Hopefully that fixes this whole mess. Unless it goes deeper.

 

"Influence is not recasting."

Miro is not recasting either, it is copying. Leeke was copying too back then. So recasting is not the issue here.

Influence is very different from emulating style. When you are 'influenced' by one artist and you do work that is very similar in aesthetic and style, that is basically copying, which for me, is what Impldoll does. That is my opinion and everyone is entitle of theirs, of course.

 

How many different ways can there possibly be to sculpt a generic female body? At some point or another they all start to look similar imo....

 

I know. I'm starting to worry my original art work for the sculpts won't be original enough. *sighs* Not sure how to combat that. But I will not be looking at any dolls while I draw!

 

On “cheap”, it’s relative, but China is the world’s factory because it’s cheap. It has a vast labor force that is exploited. (I worked on a case in which parties dickered over 1 US cent’s increase in contract price per pair for the manufacture of tennis shoes, where it would’ve made a difference in the workers’ lives… ☹) According to this, https:// tradingeconomics.com/china/minimum-wages, the highest average minimum wage is 2420 cyn per year. With the lowest wages in manufacturing at 597 cyn/year. That’s 377.02 USD and 93.01 USD respectively; divided by average 2080 working hours (not including “free” hours), that’s $0.18 and $0.04 per hour… “Cheap” seems more a tragedy of reality than “crime”…

Example of accepted “stealing”... sticking to art, pop art is all about appropriation: https:// www.moma.org/learn/moma_learning/themes/pop-art/appropriation Andy Warhol made a career of it.
Richard Prince is still doing it: https:// www.highsnobiety.com/2016/09/05/richard-prince-artist/
I can think of other instances, too, but will refrain XD

Anyway, to me, the Miro msd body fits with the style of the very classically shaped mermaid tail that they also showed (April 22 post) on facebook. Meanwhile both Miro and Iplehouse bodies also reminded me of Sadol's body albeit different size (not sure which was made first?) (tbh Miro's 70cm male and female bodies at first reminded me of ancient Egyptian figures)

Are ppl copying popovy? Or has everyone in fact been copying Egon Schiele's emaciated/elongated, sexually/emotionally open figurative style? Some of those joints in the ancient roman articulated dolls look awfully familiar, too. Because the latter's copyright has expired we can copy at will? Seems the line is no longer at “recasting”, then where is it drawn?

I don't own any of the now banned Miro bodies, and unlike my 10 years younger self and Dollzone dolls (which were castigated for being from a dubious company and cheaper than Volks, at a time when right-of-publicity-violating minimees were a rage ), I won’t worry/feel bad about what people might say about the “legal” Miro bodies I do have. That said, while obviously not required here, perhaps some clarity and general assurance of fairness of the decision process would be nice? Especially for those who have detrimentally relied on the forum's recommendations and are now affected by its ex post facto rules? Also for those of us making dolls or doll-like figures for public consumption?