New Chinese Piracy

Thanks Taco. It is due to my own laziness I suppose that I don't take the extra step to deeply inspect these companies more! I prefer to spend my time trying to read posts about learning to sew etc... I did inspect the companies whose dolls caught my eye but past that...I would not say I bothered to read into the back story of other companies much. I do recall some interesting threads about DZ a while ago. So as to my legitimacy as a "savvy" buyer (it has been implied that I might not be so) I can assure you that I do my research when needed and I have found some things that further dented my confidence. And yes, even here on the DOA boards I have found posts that have shaken my confidence in the Chinese Market. To start with the banned link here http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173020 contains a very high number of companies/people in China accused of making knock offs (and Yes I know Phantom is Korean). I am pretty darn confident that I could link you to posts that would support my cautiousness. Now that I think about it. I guess I have done some research!

I think it is unfair to paint everyone with the same brush and I am sorry if I am doing that. It springs from my not really being able to inspect a doll in person. I don't think that I am being fair actually! It is just how I feel about BJDs. I don't have a low opinion of artists in China or China in general.

I read many posts about knock-offs over the past year and they all seem to come from China. Thus, it made me extra careful.

If more confident owners buy their dolls from great companies in China that is totally cool! I lack confidence most likely because I have not done extra in depth the research on those particular companies or found exactly which of their dolls has been given the OK by DOA members.

My top priority-the thing I care about most, is supporting the original artists and craftsmen/women of any country. This is a very special unique art/craft and the knock-off market hurts the people who are pouring their blood, sweat, and tears into these gorgeous creations. I don't want to be that customer who unknowingly buys a knock off doll. Lets face it, hind site is 20/20. As confident as we can be safe and snug here on the DOA board the truth is that any one could potentially be taken in by a copy out there in the marketplace.

Hey and I do think DZ dolls are lovely lovely

 

I'm seriously thinking of taking the hacking step. I just don't want to get arrested. However I do have one idea that to me seems fool proof. If every doll made by every respectable company had a METAL plaque of authenticity with a specific serial number on it attatached somewhere on the doll, and the company box, do you really think they'd go to all the trouble of casting one of the metal plaques again? Also there are ways of putting markings in resin that are uncopiable! I took a class in highschool where we cast resin sculptures from molds we'd then go and on the bottom put a marking and then cap that off with clear epoxy, it didn't come off even with acetone, you'd have to scrape it off or some how damage the product. Maybe companies should start doing that?

 

oh ,no……
soom, my love
i hate what they have done!

 

I definitely do think some companies would be willing to copy metal plates and boxes (the price of that would be nothing compared to the profits they'd be making if they were truly passing their copies off as originals, complete with original pricetags).

The epoxy-capped signatures, on the other hand, sounds like an awesome idea that would be much more difficult to mimic. I definitely plan on using this technique for my own sculpting in future!

 

Why do so much work, when the tech is readily available to "chip" dolls with RFID tags, right in the cast?

 

This is so disappointing. The artists of Soom put so much of their hearts and souls (as I'm sure all legitimate doll companies do) into their creations. It's sickening to think that individuals completely disregard that.

 

The original post is a few months old, but I still haven't seen any of these knockoff Sooms around. I hope that's a good sign and maybe that brag about having models to recast from was just that, a brag.

I have an RFID scanner available to me. I should get some loose tags and see if they'll scan through resin XD. I kind of doubt it.

 

I personally find it revolting that the company is blatantly proclaiming its copying of the SOOM MDs. The emergence of such companies has made me even more wary of purchasing goods from China sellers. And I think it will be a shame because the people in China who are genuinely in love with BJDs will become even more alienated from the community by the actions of these companies. And these companies actually seem PROUD of their shameful behaviour!

 

They were talking about ordering a Glot/Glati originally, I believe. Since Glot and Glati are still currently shipping (and Soom is only a quarter to a third of the way through DoA orders), it's possible this Chinese company just hasn't got their 'originals' yet. I don't think it's safe to assume they were just empty brags yet, unfortunately

 

I think the biggest thing anyone can do to prevent being scammed is just to do lots of research. If I see a sale on Ebay from China, I check out DoA and see if there's a feedback thread for that seller. If it's a doll company based in China, I do the same. To be honest, I do that for any doll company or seller I'm not already familiar with, regardless of location.

It's great to have a healthy amount of caution, because there seem to be new doll scammers popping up every day. But I don't feel that avoiding Chinese dolls entirely is the best way to go about it... that method could make you miss out on some great dolls. Just because it's made in China, that doesn't mean a doll is automatically low-quality or a knockoff. A little research can make all the difference...

I understand what you're saying about erring on the side of caution, but I think that's cutting off some really great doll options without ensuring consumer safety. I have dolls and doll parts (lots of hybrids here) from all over, from the least expensive Chinese companies out there to a Soom MD, and a lot in-between. I can certainly say that price and location aren't always necessarily an indicator of quality... To put a personal standard of "no Chinese dolls" seems kind of harsh, when a little online research is just as effective in avoiding being scammed. (Possibly more so, considering that there are a number of Ebay and other scammers operating outside of China, too.)

I don't know... I guess it just bothers me to see anyone dismiss a doll or doll company out-of-hand because the research seems like too much work. I'm one of those people that will look through every option and research all the ones I like, to make sure I find the absolute best possible option for what I want... and I certainly like to look through every legit option available!

This is absolutely brilliant. The original company includes the signature or stamp as part of their own mold, then covers it/fills it in with the clear epoxy at their factory... Un-recastable and pretty nifty, too!

 

Horrified and very very angry

 

i have a tiny question....

is the dollzonemart on ebay the offical ebay store for dollzone? the seller is
yuanzhisky7912


i ask this as i am double checking along way in advance

i hope for a reply


A.R.N.F

 

Whoa.....there are a lot of blanket generalizations being thrown around here....that are unfair at best and just wrong at worst....
First of all Chinese companies as a whole are not to be demonized...they have some very talented artisans working really hard for the products they turn out....and the majority of what is made there is perfectly fine.
Secondly...knockoffs were born not ONLY because the consumer is naive....there are consumers out there who seek out knock offs....they've always been out there and they always will be and they are a special breed.....take designer bags for instance...how often have you seen what you thought was a Fendi or Louis Vuitton bag on someone who seemed incongruent to it?...you know the kind....you can always tell by looking at the footwear...if that doesn't add up...the bags probably a knock off.Crappy, scuffed shoes =fake bag. That person knew exactly what they were doing when they bought that bag....probably bought it from the trunk of a car....they wanted to appear as though they had a designer bag....that person, whether they know quality or not, is not after quality, they are after pretense. Guess what? They are not fooling anyone... I think it's the same thing with the dolls...the real collectors will know a fake when they see one. I can spot a fake designer bag blindfolded , just by the weight of the hardware and the stitch width. It'll be the same with true bjd collectors....you'll be able to tell by your own little earmarks (which , since I'm still learning about bjds, I 'm not completely sure about, but, the weight, the tone of the skin, the depth and shade of the color of the skin, the degree of finishing /sanding inside the head, etc. I'm just guessing here, but you get the idea) the bjd community will know when and if someone has a fake, and no one wants to be a fraud....so only the people who set out to buy a fake in the first place are going to be buying them and thereby, supporting the pirate companies. Knock offs exist EVERYWHERE and with every single product out there jeans,perfume,jewelry, watches, you name it....there is no escaping it. Your best ammunition....in the case of bjds...is this community, if you are new to the hobby.....ask tons of questions, get lots of opinions....there is no excuse for naivete when everyone here is trying to stay true to the element that drew us together in the first place.
Lastly....about buying second hand...on ebay at least...it is illegal to sell pirate goods....unless they've stated that in their listing...because if the buyer gets the item and it turns out to be fake-- Paypal will return 100% of what they spent on it....and it is very bad news for the seller who can be thrown off ebay for doing that even one time. So, if you are thinking about buying from ebay....don't assume or take anything at face value....ask the seller lots of questions. If it is a knock off....he's going to say something to give that away at some point..."based on the original" ;"in the style of" are red flags!....save all your ebay emails from the seller so you'll have proof of what he told you.
I don't think it's fair to ostracise the entire country of China because there are a few bad companies there. I'm old enough to remember when anything from Japan was suspect....If it was made in Japan it was a 'copy', not the original. Every company has their knock off artists....but their audience has never been the true collector...they want the 'wannabes'.
Sorry for the sermon....

 

I just bought from 'Dolls Singing' (jeeryama) who lists themselves as the official agent for DollZone on ebay. I asked around the forum and everyone assured me they were a good reliable seller.

 

Right now there are 2 Soom's up for auction on ebay that started at a really low bid (like $9.98 or something)...There is a Soom Kyrie and a Soom Alice in the Labyrinth...both from the same seller....I put both in my watch list as I wanted to see how much they'd eventually sell for.....wonder if these are two of the ones you're talking about?

 

i have them saved as a possible seller on my ebay. i'm going to have to send this person a question because when i order (in december, won't have saved enough until then + christmas money) i want some extra hands and a second head to go with my nude Hid XD lol it might even come with the christmas special (or one of them if there is two XD )

thankyou very much for the advice

i still wonder about them though (dollzonemart).

A.R.N.F

 

I agree with you 110% about not demonizing all Chinese companies. As someone with dolls and parts from several Chinese companies, I can personally vouch for the fact that there are good dolly things that come out of China.

However, I will say this about ebay--while pirated goods may not be allowed, it can be difficult to get ebay to do anything about it. They tend to not want to take action unless the company being ripped off complains (at least this is the way they've been concerning dolls). One poor person unknowingly bought a recast off ebay that ended up being terrible quality, and ebay actually sided with the bootlegger. So yes definitely be careful on ebay--you really have to look out for yourself, because in the case of bootleg dolls, ebay and paypal may not help you. Just thought that was something people should be aware of.

 

I actually think Paypal is more helpful with this kind of thing...I had a problem with something( unrelated to dolls) and they put the money back into my account the same day. I can only speak from my experience.

 

Actually, it was paypal that sided with the seller in that case--sorry. I think it's a case of ebay/paypal (as the two are related) not wanting to get involved or take responsibility in cases like that. I think in straightforward scammer cases where items were never received and things like that, paypal seems to be pretty good (provided that the seller has the money in their account to give you back). But they don't seem as eager to get involved in anything where there could be any liability on their part--they don't want to have to make the judgment on whether something they aren't familiar with is real or fake.

 

I agree with you, to a certain extent. I've bought a doll from the wonderful, talented Camellia Dynasty and I also have a Bobobie tiny, so I can vouch not only for the quality of the work, but also for the sincerity of those particular Chinese companies. However, it has been well documented in this hobby that the companies most likely to produce bootleg BJDs are based in China; this isn't baseless racism or nationalism, there are facts to back up this need for caution. Even Doll Zone started out with murky beginnings, so you can't blame people for being cautious. It's not fair to accuse all the Chinese companies of bootlegging, but you can't blame someone for deliberately choosing not to buy from Chinese companies to eliminate the chance of owning a bootleg doll.

Since all dolls vary from company to company, you will not be able to tell a legitimate doll from a fake based on resin tone and weight. Legitimate Luts dolls vary in colour from one batch of resin to the next! The marks the legitimate companies put on their dolls to avoid bootlegging can be copied too, and in the case of Volks dolls, someone selling a bootleg can easily claim that the doll either didn't come with a metal headplate or it was lost.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that majority of people I've seen who have bought bootleg BJDs have done it because they've a) been brand new to the hobby and never seen or held a legitimate doll before, b) either don't know the true price of a BJD or think they're getting a good deal and c) have bought the bootleg doll from eBay. While there are a lot of people who will happily buy a fake Louis Vuitton bag or Christian Louboutin shoes, the BJD market is considerably smaller than the designer goods market; I find it difficult to believe that there are BJD customers out there deliberately looking for fakes. I think the companies that produce the bootleg dolls are doing it to trick people into buying them, or think that producing knock off dolls is a quick way to make money out of our hobby, not because there is particular demand for bootleg dolls, (bootleg Soom MDs are a different story, however, because we know how insanely popular and rare those are and some people might be prepared to buy a knock-off Sard just to have any Sard at all.)

Paypal and eBay are not always supportive of the buyer, either. There have been situations where one or the other (or both) haven't helped the person who has unknowingly bought bootleg goods. And members of this forum have reported sellers to eBay who are selling bootleg goods or breaching the eBay ToS and still eBay has done nothing.