New Chinese Piracy

Okay....so, if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that with a bootleg bjd.....*there is no difference in quality?
*there is no difference in color?
*there is no difference in weight?
*there is no difference in workmanship?
*there is no discern-able difference whatsoever?
so, the only difference is in price? The bootleg copy is cheaper only by virtue of $, and the buyer may have the bootleg doll in a week, as opposed to 3 months....But bjd collectors are being loyal to the company who originally sold them their doll because that company LET THEM buy the doll at an exorbitant price and made them wait ions for it to arrive?....and if their super nice to that company( by abhorring bootlegs), then that company may let them buy another doll from them in the future which will probably cost even more and that they'll have to wait even longer for?.....because they are that grateful? If both dolls are exactly the same, apples to apples,as you say....then the original companies with the sky high prices(as high as the market will bear and then some) and excruciatingly long wait periods have a serious problem.There is something wrong with this picture....who would pay more than they had to for the same thing?
Most copies (of anything) have tell tale signs of being bootlegs....if a company is able to make and sell something at a drastically reduced price from the original....it's got to be different somehow.

 

Again...just my experience....my issue was designer vs knock off...it was $150...paypal put the money back into my account and seller had to pay return postage to get her fake item back. But, I had my ducks in a row in as far as proof....I had a bulleted list of check points or reasons why I knew it was a fake....she used a stock photo... not one of the item she sent me, etc.....I can't tell you what the discussion was between her and paypal, I was not privy to that....I can only report the outcome for me.Oh.... and she was prohibited from listing that item again.

 

Usually the problem with bootleg bjds is that people don't usually buy bjds in person--much buying is done over the net. In the past some of the bootlegs looked, well, off, especially if you were familiar with the original sculpt. However, in this case it looks like the bootleggers have gotten a bit more sophisticated, where it's more difficult to identify from just a picture. Also, people who have accidentally bought bootlegs in the past were often not familiar with the original sculpt. The interesting thing about this is that you don't get bootleggers selling their recasts as the original article, rather they claim it as their own (Lolidoll is a good example of this), so if you had never seen the original, you wouldn't necessarily realize that they ripped off someone else--that's why researching unfamiliar companies and dealers is so important. Now with the possibility of Soom MD bootlegs, it will be obvious to a lot more people as they're very easily identifiable. In general, though, there are so many sculpts out there that it's impossible to be able to identify all of them. This particular bootleg company that brought about this thread is being very blatant about what they're doing, but that's not always been the case.

Now in person, the bootleg doll is usually very different--the experiences that I've read about have involved things like brittle fragile resin, ill fitting parts and noxious fumes, but those things couldn't come through in a picture. I don't know about this particular company's dolls, but this has been the case with previous bootlegs. While there seems to be at least some market for bootleg dolls in Asia, there doesn't seem to be much of one here, or if there is it's not something you come across. Unfortunately some inexperienced folks have purchased dolls over ebay in good faith only to discover the truth when they received the doll or when some fellow hobbyist's suspicions were brought up on DoA.

By using caution and taking the time to do some research, it's possible to drastically decrease the chance of accidentally ending up with a recast but when you venture into dealings on the secondary market or with dealers I don't know that it's 100% protection--the secondary market will always have an element of buyer beware, and for new people unfamiliar with the pitfalls of buying dolls on ebay (which is where most of these appear) there is a definite concern.

I'm glad you were able to get your money back. It just seems to be a real crap shoot with them when it comes to dolls : P

 

You get what you pay for.

 

No, there is easily a way to tell once you know what the average doll looks like.

The color is often painted on, or yellows or greens extremely fast because it was cast hastily or in bad weather. If the head that is MSCed is totally different from its body, because it's so shiny, it can affect color by sheer difference in texture as well. (Tans, even nice quality, can do this, so it's not entirely indicative of low quality except on normal or white skin).

The difference in weight is obvious. It will either be very heavy, pointing to the fact that it's not actually resin (a normal SD boy weighs about 5-6 pounds). Or it will be extremely light weight.

Workmanship is the easiest to tell in photos. If it's a copied face then you can tell by the lack of detail in facial contours that the original has. If it's a recast and modified, the features of the face will be rough and amateurish. Eyes will be asymmetrical, the nose might be featureless. The lips might be uneven. The doll will just be plain ugly. If the body is copied it will lack a lot of detail of the original. Will not have a lot of underlying musculature and probably look a tad blocky. The joints also won't be as advanced.

There's a huge difference. Anyone who knows their favorite doll company knows when they're copied. Maybe for newcomers it's harder since their eyes aren't adjusted to seeing certain things on a BJD, but you can still go by the "But is it ugly as sin?" qualification.

 

Taco....I get it now. Specifically buying sight unseen....I understand. Have you taken a look at the 2 Soom's that are on ebay right now? I'd like to know your opinion on them....There is a Soom Kyrie (which I love) and a Soom Alice in the Labyrinth.....the last time I looked they were neck in neck in price at about $256....but the auction doesn't end for a few more days. Do you think they're the real thing?

 

I think I found the Kyrie--she's in the US, and comes with all her packaging and paperwork which I would take as a positive sign. It's possible they started the auction low in hopes that a bidding frenzy would ensue. I would make sure to check out all the feedback, however. Since it's an actual physical store selling her, you could try Googling it and see what information comes up.

 

Thanks for checking ....I wasn't interested in her for myself...I'm waiting for 1 doll to come and possibly getting a LittleFee while I'm waiting...and Shall is still my favorite...so I don't want to buy a random doll (one I hadn't thought of buying before I saw her on ebay) just because she's at a good price. I just thought I'd relay the info in case anyone else is interested...but then I started wondering about whether or not the seller was on the up and up.

 

To be crystal clear, I do not think every Chinese Doll is bad quality or a knock- off (please provide the quote where I said that before answering my post as if it was said) What I clearly stated is that I am not jeopardizing my purchases because many knock-offs come from China. There are great dolls in the bunch but I don’t care to take the risk. Also, as these dolls are coming in the mail without me inspecting them in person I think that is a totally fair and sober way to conduct my personal business.

You know, I actually think I do my research well enough for me and my purchasing needs. After thinking it over last night I realized I knew a good deal about a large number of companies so...I am comfortable with my knowledge base

I am sure there are awesome Chinese dolls out there. But I am not willing to take the chance at this moment in time. I feel like it is absolutely my right to omit from my list any company I chose for personal reasons, and frankly it should not “bother” anyone at all. I am certainly not telling any owner here to follow my lead. I also don’t judge other owners on their dolls. Do what makes you happy and I am happy for you.

I also don’t feel that I am “missing out” because all of the dolls I have wanted so far have not been from China. That is purely coincidence but a fact. So no need to feel bad for the dolls I am missing in my life LOL! I love my Akali more than any doll on this market so...I am missing nothing.

Honestly, some of the comments don’t make sense to me because they are based on strange assumptions. I am not sure why you are implying that I might not look at lots of dolls like yourself? I can’t think of when I said that! I look at lots of options before I chose a dolly but I don’t feel the need to scour every store to be satisfied with my doll choice. Most companies are not based in China so I believe I am looking at plenty of dolls. Besides, I don’t owe it to any company to look at their goods before I buy goods from a competitor. I am certainly not hurting anyone’s business by executing on the above.

Plenty of consumers out in the big world ban particular products and companies from their shopping list for reason of their own and that does not mean they don’t get just as good products in the end.

Coincidentally, part of my research a few months back included reading heartfelt letters from companies like Volks and Dollstown who are clearly upset by the knock off market. These letters affected me greatly,
Check out the Dollstown post.
As a result I am super careful.
DOA boards have indentified many of these knock offs as Chinese made.
As a result I am super careful.
I never said it was fair. However, it is cautious.

I also know that I am NOT “ostracizing” and “demonizing” the country of China! I play it safe with this one hobby...that is all.

 

toomuchmom- You are talking about judging the authenticity of an item by touching it. That is the problem with BJDs. We can't until they get home to us Why is it so?

I am seeing a lot of boasts about people "knowing" for certain when something is a fake. Sure it is easy to spot a bad fake. Are you sure it is easy to spot a good one online? For all you know you may have looked at a photo of a knock off and not noticed it was a knock off because it actually looked good? Who knows for sure?

I am an artist myself and I spend my entire day critiquing art work. I trust my eye. However, I also know it is unwise to totally trust photos on the internet for a variety of reasons Photoshop being only one of them. I collect other dolls and I have seen some good scammers who easily took advantage of excited trusting customers. Guess what? It happened to collectors too. So although I totally agree that some people do indeed want to buy the knock off, I also think that some educated dolly folk have been taken in in the past as well.

Jescissa - I appreciated your post. Although you were not responding to me I think you understood the general idea I was trying to get across. This is not about hating on the Chinese. This is about what is going on in the market place at the moment.

 

This is a good point, if it's actually a decent fake the pictures could be manipulated to make it look like the real thing and then you WONT be able to tell until you receive the doll and by then it's like "Oh shit, how am I going to fix this?" If it's a bad fake and they actually use real pictures of it chances are anyone that has done research on the doll will be able to tell that those arn't what they should buy.

 

Isenn, it's not that I don't understand your concerns--those same concerns are why I'm not very comfortable buying dolls of ebay. I'm also not trying to be mean or argumentative, but I can see why people found some of your statements a little off putting. It's not that I think you hate the Chinese--I guess what seems odd to me is being cautious of companies that are actually very well established, allowed on DoA, and who have a happy customer base. There are legit Chinese companies that have been around for several years, and lots of people post pics of their dolls and give reviews etc. Their sculpts are obviously their own. So it's true they are Chinese, but I'm not sure why one would avoid them since they are very clearly not bootlegging. I guess I'm just not seeing what the risk would be in those cases.

I can see avoiding newer unfamiliar companies or dealers that may or may not actually be official--in those instances it's understandable. Granted, if you aren't interested in the Chinese company's sculpts anyway it's sort of a moot point, but I hate to see honest companies being treated as if they were doing something wrong. Like you I want to support original artists, but what about the original artists who are Chinese? They are worthy of the same respect as the Korean and Japanese artists. They would also be equally hurt if their own sculpts were ripped off. No one is denying that a lot of bootleggers tend to come out of China or that there is need for some caution, but that has no bearing on companies who have clearly proven themselves and have oodles of feedback here on DoA. Do you really think Bobobie, AoD, Resin Soul and the like are going to scam you or sell you a recast? That's what I'm not getting, and what is probably throwing other people off too. At one point a while back legit Chinese companies were a new thing, and at that time your present attitude would have made more sense, but now some of these Chinese companies you don't trust are as established as many of their Korean counterparts and very well known.

 

Hey Taco. I don't think you are mean or argumentative. Not one bit.

I agree that I would also support Chinese artists. If I saw a doll I really wanted from the above mentioned companies and they checked out I would most likely consider buying the dolly. At the moment I don't bother to go out of my way because of the bootlegging issue! I don't want to name names but I read some sketchy stuff in the past about establishing companies. So there it is. Me all unfair and stuff.

Although some people might be put off by my comments in this post (I expected that)...not all are actually. Considering the people who wrote to me after I posted I guess that others either understand my point or feel the same! A big part of why I posted was to actually hear the counter arguments and since I was not personally insulting anyone here I expect others to do the same. If I have a strong opinion I like to try it out on people and see where it leads. It is very interesting to hear a great counter argument. Thus I am brave about chucking my thoughts into the pot and seeing it I learn something completely new.

But hopefully over time and given the correct circumstances...my mind will be completely changed. If not well, I am certainly not hurting anyone on DOA with my limited dolly purchasing.

Thanks for your post

 

This is true but I wanted to add not all Volks dolls come with the metal head plates even when there is a space for them. School heads (at least C) doesn't come with a metal plate. And I own a SS Liz and her head plate did come off but I happen to still have it. So you cannot even count the head plate at all.

 

Isenn, I felt exactly the same way as you in the beginning, but the sculpt that my best friend wanted was from Bobobie, so I bought it for her for her birthday (along with some friend's help). After handling that doll in secret the week before I gave it to her, my opinion on chinese companies totally changed and now I feel just the same about them as for other companies... So I get where you're coming from totally... but on the other hand, I'd be interested if you would have the same experience as me if you were to 'get to know' one. After that, I actually felt guilty for having ever felt they were inferior..

 

Perfect....I concur....that is my point exactly....thank you for explaining better than I managed to.

 

China is fast becoming a "first world nation" and history shows that one of the steps a nation goes through when making this transition is to ignore international copyright provisions. The government looks the other way because medical books, software, etc., are too expensive to purchase when copyright is obeyed. Lack of copyright protection on consumer goods like dolls is a byproduct of this. I am not saying this tendency to look the other way is a good thing, but is has happened before. Based on other countries' histories, it is highly unlikely that the Chinese government is likely to do anything, even if urged to by other countries-- the effect on their economy (for non BJD related goods) would be too great.

I think the way to put an end to this bootlegging and piracy is not to tar all Chinese companies with the same brush, but to support the legitimate Chinese companies that are out there, and make sure that our community is aware of and avoiding knock offs. That means buying directly from the Chinese companies making original dolls, or from their agents, and avoiding any potential backdoor transactions, such as have occured with certain Chinese sellers on ebay.

If entrepreneurs see that there is a burgeoning market for original, Chinese-created dolls and a flat market for knockoffs and black/grey market goods, we will see new doll companies established, selling beautiful and innovative bjds. Personally, I have a dragondoll on my list of eventual purchases-- I love the face sculpts of the males and haven't seen anything like them. I'm willing to support their artists: their physical location does not bother me. And I'm planning on a resinsoul body for an MNM.

I do have a stereotype that I am trying to overcome-- that Chinese goods are inferior-- but it is clear that this is quickly changing. (Think of goods produced by Japan in the 1950s versus today, or even S. Korea: as they became a first world nation, the quality of their goods changed immensely) The corruption within the Chinese economic system bugs me, but boycotting the businesses that are at the cutting edge of eliminating this corruption is a poor way to effect change.

 

I think some of my earlier comments may have been taken as harsher or more judgmental than they were intended... so I'll try to clarify. I wasn't trying to be deliberately confrontational or flame anyone. I was trying to share my opinion on the matter, and sometimes I'm not that great at typing out what I'm trying to say.

First, I'd like to point out that have not construed any of your comments as hating the entire country of China, Isenn... In the end, I didn't intend to pinpoint you personally. What I was trying to address was the concept of banning all Chinese dolls as a way to protect oneself against scams. Not buying Chinese dolls because you don't like the aesthetic, I understand that. But the idea of excluding well-known established legit companies along with new or suspicious ones is a concept that is hard for me to grasp.

Personal choices are personal choices, and everyone has the right to conduct their business the way they want. But I also have the right to share the way I conduct my personal business, which is not to exclude doll companies based on country of origin. My original post was not intended to point out where you (or anyone else) should buy dolls, but to state that I personally disagree with a policy of not buying from China. The comment on dolls coming the mail without seeing them in person doesn't really seem to address this particular topic, because for most people all dolls are bought "sight unseen" online... regardless of their country of origin.

No, neither you nor anyone else owes anything to any doll company beyond the courtesies of a proper transaction. It's not about "what I owe the doll companies" for me... it's about finding the best possible option for myself. I well know that not everyone is going to be as exhaustive (admittedly, a bit obsessive) as I am when it comes to looking at options before making a purchase, and I don't expect them to be. If someone happens across that perfect doll that's everything they want, then there's no need to look further. I understand that completely, though my own methods differ.

It was a poor word choice when I said "it bothers me to see someone dismiss a doll company out-of-hand". I should have phrased it differently, because it's not like I'm going to be losing any sleep over anyone else's doll purchasing habits. I wasn't trying to address the issue of someone doing less "scouring every store" for a doll. What I intended to address was the outright exclusion and dismissal of all Chinese dolls as a way to protect oneself from scamming, based solely on country.

Certainly a doll buyer has every right to make that decision, as much as someone else could say "I won't buy from doll companies whose names start with the letter L because Lolidoll is a bootlegger". I see both statements the same way, as someone cutting off their own options without a productive end. I don't think excluding well-established, legitimate Chinese companies is doing anything to protect oneself as a buyer. Sure, if someone wants to create a personal policy of "no L-company dolls", I'll let them do it to their heart's content. But if they were to post that statement in a thread, I'd have to politely disagree.

So I do politely disagree: I still feel a personal ban on Chinese dolls isn't the best way to protect myself as a buyer. When there are several well-documented, legit, popular Chinese companies out there I find it hard to make that justification. New companies, or smaller less-known companies? Random Ebay listings with little feedback? Sure, avoiding those is a measure of caution. But as Taco brought up, refusing to buy from an established company based on region... I personally don't agree with that. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I do have as much right to say "I don't think excluding Chinese companies is a good way to avoid scams" as anyone else has to say "I do think excluding Chinese companies is safer".

 

I think politely disagreeing is fantastic FontBandid. Just please be sure you are disagreeing to something I actually said. That is all I ask anyone on the board. I agree with most of your post but one point.

"The comment on dolls coming the mail without seeing them in person doesn't really seem to address this particular topic"

Let me explain. Many people on DOA and else where have pointed to the Chinese market as a source of bootlegging. Because of this AND because I can't see the doll in person I am super careful. So it is valid for me. It is these two facts working together that causes me to shy away from the Chinese market. I never read anyone complain about Volks but actually...I did wait to see one in person before the purchase Maybe I am always careful.

E.Hadrian- Yes holding the doll could change my mind and knowing it was not a bootleg.

toomuchmom - I don't think that Taco's post (which you are piggybacking on) is anything at all like your original posts. You primarily talked about people who buy knock-offs as being posers or "wannabes" and how any good doll owner would never ever fall for a scam. I totally disagreed. Talk about "blanket generalizations"!!!!!!!!!!! People who are savvy collectors of anything get taken for a ride on EBAY often. I know because I know of people who have been scammed and I have read their sad posts. Personally I would not label them all "wannabes". I guess if you wanted to say what Taco said you should have posted something more along those lines To me, you just came off as someone who claims to want to put an end to generalizations but follows that point by making huge generalizations. Although I doubt that was intended.

 

Well some people don't believe that a company can be legit when it had an illegitimate start. That is the hurdle a lot of people can't get over.