No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

I totally understand what your saying. I wish that at least their 'standard' dolls were kept 'in stock' so you don't have the long wait for those dolls. But often the companies will make you wait 30-60 days for a standard doll which should be in stock, but it does vary from company to company.

I think perhaps one of the biggest issues that the companies have is storage space. So keeping a 'stock' of dolls can be very difficult. (In general I've seen that land and space in Asian countries is hard to come by and expensive).

I don't think it's the standard business practice in Asia, I'm sure they would rather have the dolls ready to send out, but there is the risk of being stuck with stock taking up valuable storage space. It would be nice if one paid a down payment and then the rest at the time of shipping, however this becomes an issue in today's economy where people may have the idea they will have the money in three months, and then suddenly they don't. It's just simpler from an accounting point of view as well to take the money up front. Don't forget there is translation of languages and flux of currency market as well, that would also play into effect more if they split up the payments. They do layaway, but that seems to be not as a convenience for the customer so much as way for the company to not lose a potential sale.

 

I agree that the current business model needs some fixing, but I'm not sure how well alternatives would work in reality. If models are kept in-stock, who knows how long they could sit on a shelf before being sold. In a hobby that is obsessed with yellowing, and where even a hint of yellow can be interpreted by some as unacceptable, it seems this may be a risk to the company.

If you look at some websites, you will see limited runs of 10 or 50 or whatever that were released 2-3 years ago, and still are not sold out. Even under the ebst circumstances, these dolls would have yellowed by now if they were pre-cast, and whoever purchased one now would probably not be happy with the quality.

 

I think I remember that happening. There was a lot of upset, and a lot of surprise when that shop closed overnight, without anyone giving any notice. There were protests, and it was all over the news. I wonder what happened.

Since I am sort of in the dark about Asian business practices, as well has how BJD companies determine their price, I do want to comment on this segment of the original post:

Others have already noted about the value of feedback in this hobby, and I agree that a lot of companies thrive on the feedback left by buyers here. If I hear continuously bad things, or if what I hear doesn't make me feel comfortable buying, I don't. I may think whatever they're selling is awesome, but I'm not going to give them my business if I feel the wait time is too long for my comfort, or the quality is continuously poor.

Sometimes, when I leave companies feedback, I feel silly because I feel the need to do it for everything I order (dolls and clothes). But then, looking at how people value feedback, it isn't going to hurt to leave something. I tell the whole story, though - the condition of any outfit, shoes, wig, eyes if it's significant to know. I often have bad luck with Dollmore in terms of their clothes, because something was always damaged (but not bad enough to be returned or unable to be repaired). I also feel that I do tell people the truth about how bad the damage was, and I don't exacerbate it because that's not how I felt.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that feedback is a good way to tell what's going on, as well as discussion threads about the doll/company in question, as well as waiting rooms. As a whole, I don't think we're that naive.

While I would especially love it if a company had their standard dolls in-stock, I think resin still ages and goes yellow after a time. Like others have remarked for resin matching, if I'm planning on a head from one company, and want to have a body from another, I don't want one or the other to be more yellow than the other. If they had their dolls in-stock, I wouldn't want to create a hybrid from them for fear that whatever they've given me has been there for quite some time.

 

I think nothing is likely to change, but in an ideal world, dolls would still be made to order but you'd only have to pay something like 25% until the doll is actually made. Then you'd pay the rest and the doll would be sent to you, giving you plenty of time to get that 75% back using paypal or whatever if it doesn't arrive. Having the dolls in stock is impractical, but paying it all up front isn't really fair on us, especially for pre-orders without even a photo of the actual resin-cast doll yet.

 

Agreed. In a perfect world you would only pay when your order is complete. But we all know it isn't a perfect world. I know this type of system has bitten Soom in the past. They used to begin manufacturing your doll once you made your first payment. There were many instances were people flaked (for whatever reason) on the rest of their payments, forcing Soom to re-list the doll. This is how several people snagged MDs months after their order period had closed.

Granted, the dolls sold, so Soom wasn't out any money. In fact they gained money because they keep what the buyer had already paid. However, it wouldn't be so simple if it was a normal (non LE) doll. As others have stated the doll could sit there for months before somebody buys it. In the meantime the company has to store it and the doll is aging/yellowing.

Dealers will run into this problem every once in awhile. But as far as I know most of them only stock up on accessories/dolls they know will sell (preferably quickly).

 

I understand why some people are disgruntled, but let's not black-list the entire purchasing process because some companies didn't make it work. I personally am NOT comfortable paying full price for a doll that has been premade. If I'm dishing out hundreds of dollars, it better be brand-spanking new and made just for me. There have been some heartbreaking fiascos, and it's a shame since some of them used to be trustworthy companies. Dealers are a perfect compromise if you really don't trust the company directly, such as DDE or Mint on Card. I'm not saying you're overacting, because they're legimate concerns. I guess I just don't share them.

Oh and on the markup thing, people pay 30-100+ on faceups when paint and pastels are around 20 dollars tops. You're paying for the art and the engineering and the 'look', not just a hunk of resin.

Companies can be dishonest, I'm not denying that, it's just ALOT of companies are honest and I think that's why people are still willing to fork over their money for a preorder.

Last thing, companies may be dishonest sometimes, but I full-heartedly believe that the majority of the bjd community and especially those who leave feedback are honest. I just don't think it's right to suggest that someone is naive because they trust the feedback left by others. I read feedback for everyone and every company I purchase from, and if mulitiple people all say their trustworthly, I believe them. I think it's naive not to check feedback.

Yeah for rants

 

It's true that sometimes bad stuff happens to good customers, but no matter what the payment schedule is, there is always a chance that something can go wrong. That is something that comes with the territory of ordering over the web. We can't go into a store (or most of us can't), pick out our doll, inspect it, then pay and take it home with us. No matter what we will end up paying before the actual product is in our hands -- anytime that that happens, there is a chance of not receiving the product after paying, ending up with a flawed product etc. Buyer reviews and feedback really are the only way to go, and that's true of any web based company.

Also depending on how the business is run, they may actually need a good bit of the money upfront. To me whether I pay upfront and wait or pay right before they ship doesn't matter so much, because the above fact remains: they are getting the money before I get the doll. If I really don't want to wait I can always look on the secondary market, which of course isn't foolproof either.

Wait times for some companies can be ridiculous, for many others they really aren't bad all things considered. Sometimes a company that is typically very good about getting dolls out may hit a slow period perhaps do to weather, a bad resin batch, or an unexpected number of orders, then things calm down again and go back to normal. In the first instance like most things, buyers need to educate themselves about the companies they are buying from. For instance, CH's business practices isn't any kind of a secret -- that information has been available for awhile now. Sometimes all it takes is a post in the Buying Q&A section to find out what current wait times happen to be. That information may not be there for a brand new company or one that is relatively unknown, but for many others there will be people here who have bought from them before. In the other two instances, that's just a matter of patience. Like it or not, it's a hobby that requires it. And if a previously excellent company suddenly flakes out, well, you still aren't going to really be protected as you will have to take their word that the item is in fact ready for shipping.

I do not feel that I am particularly naive as a buyer nor do I feel taken advantage of (or let me say that I haven't felt that way yet *knocks on wood*). Looking up feedback and doing some basic poking around for info isn't iron clad protection, but iron clad protection does not exist when ordering over the net.

 

Before I say anything, the reality is that if a company can get 100% of the payment upfront, they are unlikely to change their practices. And the doll community is very unlikely to, say, botcott, effectively as a group.

I do think that BJD buyers are extremely flexible compared to most buyers. Normally you see something in a store, buy it, and go home with it, or order it offline and maybe Amazon charges you when it ships. Although people have pointed out examples like cars and wedding gowns, I do think it's comparatively rare to shell out the full price of something and then wait 2 months to get it. It can be scary, and I know I personally have been burned in the quality department from companies that are practically venerated by the community.

I do wish something could be done about this. I don't think keeping dolls in stock is a great idea, because what if it sits there forever? Land is often very expensive, and I imagine many companies do not have the space to store dolls, even if they wanted to. But on the other hand, Blue Fairy does it, and they have never dissappointed me in quality. I think the best suggestion so far is a ~30% downpayment, and the rest paid when the doll is completed, but it is true that these dolls are expensive, and I bet people would back out often enough that a company would be leary of doing this.

Sadly, the best thing to do is arm yourself with knowlegde, I guess. Even if the company you are ordering from is one that has been awesome in the past, you need to check the company feedback before making a new purchase. For example, I received perfect dolls from Fairyland, then received ones with all kinds of issues in late 2010. If I had read the feedback, I would have known that they were starting to have these issues, but I had blindly trusted in my past experience (note, I am just making a point and have no intention of bashing FL). The same is true on the second hand market, don't just look at the front page of someone's feedback, look at it all.

I guess the bottom line is that I don't think there is a perfect solution for this issue, but I agree that I wish something about it could be changed.

 

As an avid reader, I purchase many books as preorders. The site I order them through needs me to pay the whole cost, up front, and then when the book is released, it ships.

Several online CD companies are the same. As are several video game sites. And DVDs.

Granted, there's a big difference in cost between a $10 book (Well, with Australia's horrible entertainment tax markup it's more like a $25 book) and a $700 dollar doll, but I am still paying the cost of the book up front and in good faith.

The simple fact of the matter is in this sort of hobby, feedback is everything. There are certain things I won't buy from companies because of the overall feedback they get. Me - I love SOOM. I think their dolls are wonderful and imaginative. But you would never, ever see me buy a wig from SOOM. Why? Because going off the feedback, the quality of SOOM wigs is not equal to the price charged. Often they're too small, thin, and if they're fur, they shed. I have had no personal experience with a SOOM wig, but this is the overall feedback that I see coming from people who have purchased the wigs in the past.

You will also never see me buy an AiDoll, no matter how much I think that they're pretty. Why? Once again because the feedback from the company is all negative.

Word of Mouth is insanely important in this hobby, and good companies will realise that. Look at how much of a hit LeekeWorld took when they released Mikaela (sp? I'm sure I'm missing an 'h' somewhere) So many people boycotted the company because of the kerfuffle with where the sculpt design might have come from.

To be fair, whether or not companies start working on a deposit system is a good topic of interest. But anywhere on the internet, buyer has to beware, and has to weigh good and negative feedback up in their own mind when it comes to making the final purchase decision.

 

I am glad a few people are openly acknowledging and wishing the situation would change. There should'nt be anything wrong with indirectly or directly trying to influence positive changes in this hobby we all love and spend our hard earned money on by discussing and venting about this.

Oh and to compare buying other large ticket items and having to wait on them to preordering a BJD, most of us are not buying non-doll large ticket items online from foreign countries either, this is an entirely differnt scenario and much more risky for the consumer. I am personally dumb founded Asian BJD companies are not trying anyway they can to get more of us to spend our money on their dolls by making it more consumer friendly and less risky by not expecting full payment for a preordered item. A nice example of how to get around this problem is by ordering from a reputable doll dealer in your home country that gives you options on partial payment to order the doll, then pay in full when the doll arrives. It is too bad we only have that option to order a few select brands and that some of the most popular dolls only allow direct purchase.

 

Ah, but this is the difference between 'Eastern' and 'Western' culture. In the East, reputation is everything. My father worked as a go-between for many Eastern and Western countries for several years. The people in the Asian countries would do anything for him - they would take him out drinking, throw money at him, give him gifts, in order to guarantee and continue his business. In return, he was expected to do the same when they came to Australia. My father managed to secure deals he otherwise wouldn't have because he had an excellent reputation, and was always working to improve it.

There was an expectation on behalf of the Eastern companies as well. Once, one of my father's deals with a Western partner fell through, but he was still expected to fill the Eastern deal even if it meant he had to make a loss on his end of the deal. He couldn't back out because that would be irrevocably damaging to his reputation, and he probably would lose a lot more business than just that of the company involved.

I imagine it's much the same thing with doll companies - building and maintaining their reputation is important, so one can place a lot more faith in them than otherwise they would.

 

It is true that in Asia reputation is everything.
I mean you are talking about cultures and societies in which a carved red stamp with your name is still worth more than your actual signature.

Like others, I have been in the hobby for long enough that I now can really make a logical choice about which companies I just window shop and which companies I can give my money to up front and do not need to loose sleep over it

This is a hobby, I do not need to own every single doll that I like.... thus I do not need to worry about giving money to companies that have poor feedback.

 

Anytime you pay for something over the internet you are taking a risk and not just with custom orders either. Just because someone says they have something to sell you doesn't always mean that they do. That is the risk we all take.

Yes, the wait time involved with BJD's is astronomical, but its not like this is a surprise. Patience is a virtue and in our cases a necessity because in this hobby waiting is a given. When you commit to buying a doll you are not only committing to spending a large sum of money, but also spending a large amount of time waiting. If you are not happy with waiting, or with the risk that comes with a special order that requires you pay in full in advance of the manufacture, then this may not be the hobby for you.

Everyone who orders a BJD should be aware of the risk, and if not, it's their own fault, because the information is out there. It's up to each individual buyer to look for it. All I'm saying is, for the most part, the ways things are right now work out fine for a vast majority and until that is no longer the case and the community is filled will malcontent, nothing is going to change. That is the way of business and human nature. Not to say that some things wouldn't be better if there were some changes, but I really don't foresee anything like that occurring in the near future. I think every thing is the way it is for a reason, whether or not we can fully grasp it with a sketchy speculations.

Let's face it, in the end no one is holding a gun to our head and telling us to buy these dolls. We choose to, because we love them, with full knowledge of the payment process and the wait time. Their price is not only a significant amount of money (sent in trust), but also our time. Yes, those weeks/months of waiting are also part of our payment. Be willing to pay both, or simply find another interest.

 

I don't think the waiting is so bad really (well, I'm probably forgetting, it's been a year since my first and only doll now). To be honest, if they had them in stock and just shipped out I don't think I would see them as special somehow, however illogical that actually is in reality. Besides, if she had been shipped out straight away she would have ended up naked for a couple of weeks or something when she arrived XD

However, the payment up front although I didn't think that much about it at the time, is largely unnecessary for the standard dolls. I think what has only been mentioned briefly is that even if they do not get payment for a doll that is made they still have the doll. No one is expecting them to send out a doll without full payment. So they've made a doll, not got the payment, well the next person who wants the same doll will be lucky enough to get their doll much quicker than expected, the company gets the money for the doll.

What I think would probably be the fairest method is something like a 50% deposit upon payment, the rest before shipping, and perhaps for limited editions only they could ask for all the money upfront. However as others have said, this is unlikely to happen as they can get away with 100% upfront for all dolls.

 

I don't mind waiting. And I check out companies and sometimes will take a risk if I really want the doll that badly.

BUT--I do agree with Nanyalin. She's not saying that everything must be in stock always. She said that with layaways and pre-orders, we DO put money down and the dolls should start being made then. That seems fair. They have some money to put towards the dolls up front and know about how many dolls they will need to make. Yes, some people may flake and disappear, but they will still have some money from them and the majority will not do that--AND if the doll is that limited, it should be easy to sell one or two extra.

Nanyalin is saying that we should not totally pay everything up front for a doll that has not even started being produced.

I think that is fair. I think the companies need the incentive of having a complete doll so they can get all their money.

Do I think this will happen? It COULD, if people kick up enough fuss about it. The consumers really DO have the power. I often think we let the companies get away with too much, which leaves only a few people to fight hard battles to make the companies behave better. I think this could be done POLITELY and HELPFULLY--by having customers speak up, saying, "I love your company and your dolls--but the waiting period is too long. I would prefer if the final payments not be required until the doll is ready to be shipped."

But are enough people going to do this? I don't think so. If there is a problem, it's basically with the buyers who let companies get away with things and don't agree to act together.

I think this hurts everyone in the long term. When a company gets a bad reputation people DO stop buying and then the company will be hurt and stop making the dolls. (The "just don't buy" power of consumers is true--but not always the best solution.) If we can make sure the company tries to act better before that happens, everyone will be better off.

I was seeing this with Ringdoll. I was considering buying one of their dolls, but now I'm thinking I would be crazy to do so... And there are so many other dolls being made, it's not like it will hurt so much to look at another company without problems. And if everyone does the same... There goes an interesting company! They may come back, but it will hurt them, and maybe they won't be able to compete in a very competitive market.

But things are always cut-throat in this way. I think Nanyalin has a very good point, but unfortunately, bad things happen and continue to happen. And people disagree about how to solve problems--so nothing gets better. That's just life, sadly!


----I include myself in the bad consumer category... I am waiting for two fully paid-off Soom dolls at the moment. And have I complained? No. I am not being helpful... but that's how it goes.---

 

Re: Dollshe's reproduction costs, those do include labor, overhead, etc., because that's the final selling price! The only thing not included is development of the original sculpt, which in this case is done by the customer. So the difference in price between their reproduction service and their regular dolls can only be attributed to two things--development of the sculpt, and profit.

Now, the price of the development of the head sculpt is divided among all the hundreds, or thousands, of customers who buy that sculpt, and the development of the body sculpt (which presumably is more complex) is divided even further, since many head sculpts use the same body sculpt. The more popular the company, the lower the cost per doll of R&D. Also, as people are fond of pointing out, sculpting dolls is not necessarily a regular, full-time job and therefore the artist does not necessarily have to be making a living wage. Thus, I think it's fair to say that the markup is high.

It follows that doll companies could cast dolls up-front without significant financial difficulty. As someone pointed out, some companies do do this. I know Angel Region did at the time I bought from them.

Ergo, we, as a group of consumers, could easily demand a change in policy. And it's not up to us to figure out a working business model for the companies. Don't assume that just because their English is broken they don't have degrees in business. By the time a business is outsourcing its production overseas and has a professionally developed website translated into other languages, they're not operating out of someone's garage anymore. Yes, there are some legitimately small companies, but by definition, they account for a small number of the dolls we, as a whole, buy, and are therefore the exception rather than the rule.

The only thing keeping us from more customer-friendly policies is ourselves. If we could convince even one popular company to change, the others might follow suit just to compete.

Please read and understand this post in its entirety before misquoting ideas! I don't mean to sound obnoxious, but that happens a lot.

 

I think this will make sales fall , and I’ll explain : now with layaway we can pay about 1/3 of dolls value every month and we are able to manage payments each month ...
After the last payment it usually takes a little for the doll to be sent but usually companies start making the doll from the second payment , I had iplehouse dolls sent inside the week after the last payment . If I don't make use of the layaway option I usually experience a 1 - 2 months waiting which is perfect for me & of course I can wait having no worries about money to be saved because I have already paid .. If I'd like a doll too much and the artists/company reputation was a good one I could wait even a year p.e. I have a plan to buy from Dollshe and don't mind about the waiting at all ... so waiting is not an issue
I prefer to pay everything upfront or in organized layaway to save MY reputation because I care too much for my reputation (not only sellers but customers must have a face and reputation) and I want to be ok with my payments first of all ,and I explain that : I can handle payments better this way than paying 30% upfront then wait , and one day - might be 1 month after / 2 months after / 3 months e.t.c - a mail pops out of the blue saying ”do you remember the rest 70% , well we have your doll ready and we need them inside one week from now” ... And keep in mind that you can't be sure if this mail will arrive in one month or 2 or 3 ... because you can't be sure when your doll will be ready , so you can't settle money priorities month by month and most people when the mail will pop up they won't be ready in one week to pay the rest (so this will raise sales cancelling) . I know I wouldn't be ready because as an artist I don't have a stable income , my income depends of my sales ... I can do a 3 month layaway with small payments and If I have the money I can pay upfront but I certainly can't keep 500$ away from home needs just in case my doll is ready earlier than normal or for one year because my doll slowed a bit. And it's more than certain that this way I’ll stop buying bjd because I would hate to receive the mail announcement and not be able to cover my last payment obligation in time or forced to cancel the order I would feel highly ashamed .
The way payments are know helps me to organise my payments or savings either layaway or in full and make a perfect money plan for home and hobbies , much better than paying today p.e. 200 $ for a doll and keep the rest 400 for 1 month - 1 year waiting for a charging mail anytime in the meantime , this would truly disorganise my financial.
So I prefer it as it is today and checking feedback to know what I need to know.

 

I totally agree with april .
I think it would be nice if I wouldn`t have to pay for air , and then wait six months to get my doll , like it happend with my bbb mei. It`s true , it`s not thet expensive , but the waiting time I agreed to was 2 to 4 months. Not six. Still , I didn`t complain , wich was not helpfull for anyone , but oh well.
I think paying only partially would speed up the procces , and would motivate the companies more to complete their orders in time
Sadyl , this comunity does not stick togeder enough to make a positive change.

 

So far I have yet to get burned by the pre-order process and continue to gladly pre-order dolls. But I realize that a number of companies write checks they can't cash so to speak. Ringdoll being one. I'm still hoping theyget that Frankenstein body out but not until they get their act together.

But, from a company standpoint I can see why they charge full price up front. It's a lot easier for customers to default on a %30 down payment. If you take 100 pre-orders and only 50 ever fully pay you have 50 dolls sitting around and have lost money on production cost and materials.