1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
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  2. Dollshe Craft and all dolls created by Dollshe, including any dolls created under his new or future companies, including Club Coco BJD are now banned from Den of Angels. Dollshe and the sculptor may not advertise his products on this forum. Sales may not be discussed, no news threads may be posted regarding new releases. This ban does not impact any dolls by Dollshe ordered by November 8, 2023. Any dolls ordered after November 8, 2023, regardless of the date the sculpt was released, are banned from this forum as are any dolls released under his new or future companies including but not limited to Club Coco BJD. This ban does not apply to other company dolls cast by Dollshe as part of a casting agreement between him and the actual sculpt or company and those dolls may still be discussed on the forum. Please come to Ask the Moderators if you have any questions.
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No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

Sep 6, 2011

    1. The reason I buy my new dolls from Volks (mostly) is because of all the points you are highlighting. I just don't trust a lot of companies and I am not willing to spoil my love for this hobby with a string of bad experiences. I tend to stew and because I know this about myself I am super protective when it comes to my little BJD escapism. I play it ultra safe because I don't like the idea of dealing with amateur customer services. Instead I give my money to people who do business the way I prefer to do business like Shinydoll and Volks. I suggest that if you are unhappy with the service from a company you leave feedback and stop giving them your money. I did that with Glorydoll after learning my lesson about jumping in too fast with a new untested company in a far off place that I have difficulty contacting. Your call to "demand better service" sounds interesting but the best way to get the service you want it to NOT buy from troubled companies and influence you friends not to buy. Let them know in polite but firm wording why you are no longer a customer.

      The truth is that many of us out there want a certain doll so badly that we are willing walk into a sale knowing before hand that it will be less than perfect. The DollShe example is a great one because those lovely dolls are so difficult to acquire that collectors are willing to put up with a lot :) Truth is I can't blame them. If they have a thick enough skin to deal with all the waiting than who am I to step in and tell them that they should demand more? If they do hold out they might miss a chance at their beloved doll.
       
    2. Again, I honestly don't see how this could work without burning the seller. You're telling me I should only pay a small part of the custom car I just ordered? They should start manufacturing it right away just so I don't have to wait an extra month or two? And they should trust me to not default on the rest of the payments?

      Forgive me, but this sounds far too naive. The company isn't going to trust you "just because". They need proof or incentive that you're not going to flake. Your full payment is the proof.

      The only reason it gets trickier with dolls is because most of the companies are overseas. It's very difficult to get your money back if the company decides to flake.

      You're absolutely right! You have every right to tell a company you don't like the way they operate, so you're not going to buy from them. That's what everybody should be doing: researching a company before making a large purchase. If you don't like the company don't give them your money.

      There really is no good or bad in any of this. If I'm OK with waiting a year for a doll that's my choice. If you don't want to wait a year for a doll that's your choice.
       
    3. The problem here is that there's an assumption floating around that the system is broken, and that everyone agrees it's broken but just do not want to fix it. But that's not true.

      I, for one, love the waiting period. It's when I'm most inspired and creative, when I spend hours upon hours drawing, sketching, planning character looks, personality and outfits, busily begin completing commissions for others so I can raise some funds to purchase and amass accessories for my incoming doll. I waited three months for my Soom doll and it was like I was on fire. New comic plot, complete with page thumbnails, in a direction I've never taken before. Studying the colour theory and composition some more so I could present my doll's story the way I want to. I can honestly say that without the waiting period I probably would've fallen out of the hobby long ago, and I would definitely be opposed to companies changing their policies and casting dolls in advance, especially because of possible mismatch and yellowing on the less popular dolls, and because I have absolutely NOTHING against waiting and being patient. I know the limits of my patience and the limits of what I consider a reasonable wait (which varies depending on company policy), and I know what I can do should I ever run into a situation where it's gone beyond that.

      As for payment before or mostly after... The reality is, the way it's set up now, it's up to the customer to trust the company to deliver. Just like, well, everywhere in life. The customer has a choice - they can not buy the doll, not give the company any money, and go elsewhere if they decide they don't trust it. Forcing companies to work with the promise of pay forces them to trust the customers - and, well. Companies are visible. There is feedback for them, there is a large and abundant database out there that potential customers can read up on and make an assessment of the company. Customers are phantom people, with phantom and not necessarily connected usernames. There is no feedback out there, no networked lists that say that Jane Flake is a flake and has defaulted on a billion layways because she wanted a better, shinier doll she found, and forced her money back through a paypal claim. There are also people like me who do NOT like making promises of payment "some time in the future". I don't like owing people anything, especially money, and I always, ALWAYS pay artists and other people who work for me in advance. It gives everyone ease of mind. I know I've fulfilled my promise AND have a good reason to expect results, and the artist knows s/he won't be taken advantage of.
       
    4. Maybe we need an escrow service (some kind of a middle man), where we pay the deposit which given straight to the doll company, and the rest (either the full remaining, or some sort of layaway) kept with the escrow, which when the doll completed and ready to shipped or already shipped, then the remaining payment is released to the doll company. If for some unreasonable reason the doll company can not deliver, then the money will be released back to the buyer. Would give the doll company an incentive to act in a timely manner.

      Of course, problem would still be exist, if that escrow service is the one that being dishonest.
      perhaps that's something that paypal (or credit card company) could give a thought of offering this kind of service?
       
    5. I agree with Ostrich and would add that letting the buyer give the full payment when the doll is complete allows the buyer way too much time to back out of the sale (isn't this why a lot of people on the MP require a non-refundable deposit for layaways?). Even ignoring the flakers, there will be a bunch of people with legitmate reasons for dropping the sale and as most companies are small, they'll be building up a stock that they can't afford to have.


      DDE does this. You can pay a deposit and pay the rest once the doll arrives at their store and if you back out of the purchase they keep the deposit. However that is their risk to run and I don't expect the original companies to follow suit.

      Overall, I think the risk in this case should fall onto the buyers. Afterall if a company is bad the news gets out to the community (then it's a case of not researching or taking a risk on a new company), there is no way for the company to do the same and research every single one of its customers.
       
    6. I did not know there was any other way to pay for items. I do not mind paying up front as long as I get the item.
       
    7. People are pointing out that we do order other things on trust, with full payment up front. Can I offer the counter evidence that in the arts, especially with paintings, it is common place to give a deposit and then the rest of the payment when the final product is finished when ordering something custom-made.

      Why should all the risk fall with the buyers? I don't understand this. I think the risk should be shared between both the buyer AND company. This wouldn't be so much of an issue if the wait times weren't so long, but we often end up with zero recourse when things go bad because it's been months since we saw our money. A doll company would only have lost time and materials (which the deposit could maybe cover? I don't know exactly how much of a dolls cost is materials) (and they could always still sell the doll, especially if they have lots of orders, then that doll just goes to the next person waiting.) We lose far more money when a company runs off with our full payment.

      I understand that "thats life" and "thats just the way it is" and we don't have a choice - we have to accept it and either buy the doll or not buy the doll. But that doesn't mean we can't say "this particular aspect of the hobby isn't really fair and it sucks".
       
    8. The problem is that the original post reads a bit like a manifesto and how we need to revolutionize and change the system, and while wait times and money up front is clearly a problem for some people, they're not a problem for other people who see nothing wrong with the system. I don't really have an issue with the current system and as such, I am not going to sign petitions or harass companies to change. People who want to are free to do so, but it's silly to expect everyone to jump on this, and some of us have actual concerns to some of the changes people are suggesting. I don't want to buy an old in stock doll that has sat on a shelf for some time, and that is definitely what would happen for less popular sculpts and less popular companies. The buyer should always research what companies they are purchasing from, and if it is one with a history of long wait times and they are not comfortable with them, the best course of action is to just not buy from them.

      The examples people brought up were because it was said that this is an unheard of business model, when it's not and is pretty common in other hobbies. This is not a new way of doing business. I have commissioned a lot of fanart in my day, both online and at conventions, and I can tell you unless the artist was my friend, I always have had to pay in full up front.
       
    9. 1. With regards to things like paintings, I've never encountered that. Every time I've paid for a piece of artwork outside of the hobby (paintings, sculptures) or inside of the hobby (face ups, blushing) it was the full price upfront. I actually have a doll off being blushed right now. It's the first time I was given the choice to pay in full or make a deposit.

      2. "Zero recourse" isn't exactly true. We have zero recourse with Paypal because of their policies, true. But there's nothing stopping you from filing with that country's police department. In fact isn't that how the Charles Creature Cabinet fiasco was (somewhat) resolved?
       
    10. Haha, ok maybe it's only me with the art thing. And it's been a long time, maybe people don't do that any more :lol:

      But it's true that most people are just out their money unless they know people in the country who can help them get it back. I don't think charles creature cabinet thing was really resolved? Last I heard someone picked up unposted dolls and sent them out, but lots of people are still out money?
       
    11. I honestly would ask you, how many of you get pait at the beginning of the month, and not at the end, after you've done your work. There is, absolutely, almost no other business that conducts itself this way; and I think that waiting times would reduce drastically if the full amount would be paid after the completion of the product. As I said, I think it is proper to pay a deposit that might cover the costs of the making, or cover them partially; but the moment where the crew earns his salary, is when the products are finished and ready to reach the customers. By accepting blindly these abusive rules that leave all the risks in our hands, and absolutely none on the maker's hands, we've set it as precedent, and honestly, I think it is definetly a bad precedent.
       
    12. Honestly, I agree with Nanyalin. Just because this is the accepted process doesn't make it a good one. I don't like sending $500+ to someone and having no choice but to go through the extremely arduous process of filing a report with their national business whatsit in order to get my money back when something goes wrong. That really isn't fair. On the other hand, I fully support artists earning the money they deserve, and that's exactly why I espouse the idea of paying half upfront, and the rest when I have what I'm paying for. Even paying 2/3 of the cost up front is better than paying the full amount if it means that companies have some legitimate incentive to provide me with the best possible service. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even though other hobbies work that way, that still does not make it right, and to say that "if I don't like don't do it" completely ignores the point- I want to do it, and I should have a right to do it, but I would really like to have some insurance while I do it, and that is not too much to ask.
       
    13. Unless I'm mistaken, the majority of people in this thread aren't in the bespoke, luxury item manufacturing business and that's one reason why we get paid at the end of the month's work, not at the beginning ;) If I was making luxury dolls to order, I'd want to know I'd be paid in full for my time, effort and materials before casting and putting a doll together. If I was making luxury cars to order, I'd want to know that the money was coming before I even thought about ordering the parts.

      Is it really an abuse of customers to expect them to pay upfront? I don't think so. There are more honest companies than dishonest, and there would be a lot more complaints about resin colour and texture inconsistencies if a doll was made in stages according to the payments a customer made, rather than began at once after full payment has been received. The other issue is feedback: companies have feedback threads and reputations, customers are virtually anonymous. Anyone can sign up for an account on a company's website with any delivery address and paypal email address and start ordering products, companies have no way of verifying who you are or what you are like as a customer. If you're uncomfortable putting your trust in a foreign company, they're just as uncomfortable about putting their trust in a foreign customer.

      It's just over 10 years since Volks started Super Dollfie, and many other older companies are coming up to their decade birthday too now. If the business practice of paying up front or paying a significant part of your layaway before your doll starts to get made was ever going to change, it needed to be much earlier than now.

      There is no need to 'blindly accept' anything. Don't support companies whose practices you disapprove of, don't recommend companies you've had negative experiences with, don't leave positive feedback for anything less than perfect service. A safe community is an informed community, I doubt anything is really going to alter business practices after a decade of them being the norm, but if you feel strongly about this issue then it's important to leave accurate feedback for companies with bad practices. If they don't get any customers, they're going to have to change or fold.

      In this case, there is nothing to stop someone paying half for a doll, receiving their doll and then 'forgetting' to pay the balance. That certainly isn't fair on artists - or on other customers who would get penalised with higher prices to cover the costs of the thefts. Companies can issue an invoice through paypal, but they can't force anyone to pay it...customers can force chargebacks through their credit cards and filing a claim with paypal.
       
    14. But we've already brought up several examples of where this type of payment is the normal, so not unheard of and nor is it almost no other business. You think it's abusive. I don't. *shrugs* I don't make luxury, made to order art items for my living, but you can be sure that if I did, I would want payment upfront.

      Paying for an item in the way you want to pay for it, even if it is against the seller/artist's terms or how their business is set up, is not a right unless the artist/seller is somehow breaking the law with their terms.
       
    15. I agree with you here, Nanyalin. Even though other online stores charge the full cost right away, they are typically not custom items and are already made to be shipped out. When I take commisions, I start the product without a deposit (which i understand some people might disagree with) and don't charge the full price until I am ready to ship the item to my customer. That being said, I trust people more often than I don't, so I am rather Naive. my first doll buying experience was through ebay and i was completely scammed and never recieved the doll i ordered. I waited another year and a half before i felt comfortable trying it out again, and now I have had nothing but pleasent experiences with companies (and other members here on DoA)
       
    16. Oh Jess, but not even in cars you pay the full amount before the order is completed! Perhaps if you are going for a Lamborghini or ordering a custom Ferrari, you will be requested some warrantee of payment XD, but again, I think dolls is not exactly the same.

      About not supporting companies with abusive business practices (and I do not mean ''illegal'') it is exaclty what I think; I do not agree with the ferocious competence that is taking the market by storm, with all the companies trying to offer more dolls in less time, that always goes in detriment of the shipping times and the lowering of quality controls. Since it does not suppose any kind of risk for them, why not to do it? Then again, shipping dates keep being postponed over and over. Honestly, most times I got the feeling that I've seen a meal advertised in a restaurant, I go inside, I order it and pay for it... and I am told to come back to the restaurant in a couple of weeks to eat it X_D.
       
    17. OK, not getting the 94% profit thing.

      The Dollshe site quotes for 70-79cm doll head and body reproduction cost at $2930 for twenty sets (as listed near the bottom of the Dollshe link page)
      That equals:
      $293.00 per doll
      $45.00 for basic gate removal per doll (basic aeathe)
      --------
      $338.00 per doll set (basically, ready to go doll parts)

      At this point, compared to the retail price of a Basic DS18 Saint at $650.00, You are at $312 over cost of reproduction, so that is already more than 50% of retail price just in molding, casting and gate removal.

      The unaccounted for costs:

      Development (engineering and sculpting) this cost gets divided by number of dolls sold

      Assembly (labor + materials (elastic, hooks, etc.) because reproduction yields bags of unassembled parts

      Boxing (labor + doll box,bubblewrap, rubber bands or tape, futons/cushions, or foam cut-out... whatever they use to package the actual doll)

      Doll site sales overhead(website, sales people, office costs) some of this type of business expense gets divided over time...it has up front costs for design and equipment, then day to day costs of supplies and personnel.

      The profit margin is pretty thin even for a larger company that is selling a few hundred dolls per issue.

      There is no 90%+ profit margin in ABJD. Even before artists, laborers, office workers, internet providers and bubble wrap sellers get paid, materials and manufacturing costs are already a substantial percent of the retail price.

      Getting back to the original post, the company would probably need 2/3 of the retail cost of the doll to pay for getting it to the point of being boxed and ready to ship in order to not risk losing money should an order get cancelled.

      In any case, the business model for this hobby has always been pay up front and then wait. Since many popular companies have more customers than they can handle, I don't see any motivation on their part to change the status quo.

      (And my own personal opinion, I do not think that banding together to change how bjd companies do business will have desirable results, especially from well established companies. I can see them raising prices to pay for adding another tier of paperwork into their pipeline.)
       
    18. Having dealt with a number of flakes back when I took commissions- I can see why the companies wouldn't want to just 'trust' that you're going to make good and pay the rest of the amount when the doll is done. I got out of doing commissions partially because I was too busy, but partially because I was tired of ending up with piles of things I couldn't use and couldn't sell because of people who'd happily pay the deposit and then disappear off the face of the Earth.

      I'm a very firm advocate that companies should be honest about how long it takes to make something. If they say 4 months, and you're complaining after 3, that's your problem. If they say 4 months and it's been 6, you're in the right to complain, and that certainly is the company's problem.

      That said, however, if you're the kind of person who needs to have everything nownownow then maybe you should stick to shopping from dealers and on the second-hand market. We live in a very instant gratification society; sometimes I'm happy to just sit back and smell the roses while I wait for a doll. Sure, I get as antsy waiting as everyone else, and I love hanging out in the waiting rooms going 'Waiting for doll doll doll doll!' but I've never felt like the sheer act of waiting in and of itself wrongs me.
       
    19. Do you really think so? Myself, I think that the competence is currently so fierce, that the first company that decides to act like a regular business where the word investment exists, and gains their profit after their work is done and not earlier, will take the day. But I am only supposing here.

      I really do not think that the initial deposit should cover -all- of their expenses, those expenses should be covered, in the case of large companies, with earlier releases and part of the profit; that is what investment is. Honestly, it is way easier to let things be when you have the money in one hand, an expired time for a potential paypal claim by your client, and the half done doll elsewhere. And by all meanings, I wonder, now that we mention Dollshe craft, why on earth they still say in their site ''Expected shipping time of 3 weeks''. One year? What can be a possible explanation for that, but major procrastination and lack of responsability? Or those cases of overgreedy preorders where the maker bites more than they can swallow (I've been already in three: Everpurple, Dollflower and Withdoll), and then you start to get the endless row of all kinds of creative excuses for terrible delays. And it happens every time, everywhere.
       
    20. Thanks for your intelligent reply. :) I assumed "basic aeathe" meant seam sanding and didn't include it in my calculations. But I still stand by these points:

      Why would the cost of overhead and packing supplies not be included in every single product they sell, including custom manufacturing?

      Stringing a doll takes no time at all when you're used to it. I don't think this would add huge amounts to the production cost. You could probably employ someone at minimum wage to do it. If they can string 10 dolls in an hour, that's like 70 cents extra on the cost of the doll, plus elastic.

      Thus I maintain that R&D and profit have to account for the bulk of the remaining price.