No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

A worker getting their wages is not the same situation as a person ordering a doll or other commission piece. Yes, there is money being exchanged for a service, but the situation surrounding these two examples are quite different. And it was made clear several times that this particular hobby is not the only place where you pay up front for an item.

I also dislike the language being used here. Abusive? Really? There are some dishonest people who will abuse their customers, but they would do so no matter what. Many companies have proven themselves trustworthy. I myself have experienced good customer service from companies before. I will repeat what I said before -- if you buy anything over the net, there is a certain amount of risk. It is up to the buyer to educate him/herself and to make good decisions that lessen this risk. Will the risk all go away? No. But even if companies did what you propose there would still be risk.

I can understand people being twitchy when there are large sums of money being spent, but this isn't a problem for everyone, and you make it difficult to take your side when you are setting up this false us vs them, we're getting screwed scenario. In doing so, you are actually insulting a large swath of hobbyists by insinuating that we are blind and naive for not taking issue with a system that overall has worked pretty well all things considered. You are also insulting all the companies that have done well by their customers (which is actually quite a few). It is also wrong to assume that all industries/hobbies/whatever work exactly the same way when it comes to producing and selling goods -- there will be some differences that help dictate what system will end up being used.

 

I believe it is a professional obligation to keep customers updated whether through email, forum and blog with or without pictures. I would like to be reassured that the company/artists still have my project on the table - especially when you notice they are currently taking on other major projects.

I don't believe it is selfish or impatient to at least get that much after putting down a full payment, especially if the development of the custom item has taken more than a year.

I am currently involved in a custom order much like this. However the length of time is dictated more by the wishes of those who want alterations than that of the company. I just wish we didn't have to wait 2-3 months in between updates.

I feel that it is fair to have reassurances directly from the company.

 

Very interesting and lively discussion indeed.
As I newbie to the hobby, I'd been somewhat uncomfortable w/the current 'norm'.
It reminds me of the car repair shop that kept saying 'next week, next week...'.

Certainly there are risks on both sides but the long, often extended wait times + 100% upfront (sometimes w/o layaway option) do seem to be more risky for the consumer than the supplier.

I do agree w/@northern_raven that a lot of my anxiety as a buyer would be alleviated somewhat by better periodic communications from the sellers. I commissioned artworks before and have always been v. happy re: the periodic "hey, your xyz is drying on the balcony!" updates. They keep me engaged with the artist and make my order feels special to me. It doesn't have to be like that with mass orders of course, but a friendly "still here, ETA is now x months, thanks for waiting" would go a loooong way.
Mme. duBunny

 

I find it interesting that some collectors are coming down on the doll makers for not letting us flake out on a sale after they produce the doll. Yes, there are PLENTY of flakes in this world and some of them make their home on DOA. Maybe they need to protect themselves financially to stay profitable?

Also, all this talk about profit margins is pretty shabby. I doubt any of the artists are cruising in a Porsche to their bungalow in the Hamptons. If you are so disturbed about what you think they are making in profits then don't buy the dolls and spend your money somewhere that they don't have a "90%" mark up? I have no idea what is to be gained by complaining about the cost of BJDs?

Thank you strangeangels for your post. All those little things DO add up and really I don't see any unreasonably large profit margin for doll makers.

 

Isenn, the issue is not whether the markup is excessive, but whether the companies would have enough cash on hand to make the product before receiving 100% of the payment. Obviously none of us finds the price to be too high or we wouldn't be here.

 

The Cut-and-Paste of Dollshe's production costs to this thread it really about squabbling over money in my opinion. Since none of us run his business or know exactly what type of overhead he deals with I think it is a bit out of place to try to determine if he should or shouldn't be making dolls for us on a promise of payment. We just don't have all the info.

Paying up front for a luxury specialty item is not unheard of. Horrible customer service is unacceptable , but in the end we all need to do our home work and buy from companies that have business practices that suit our temperament.

 

Wow this topic is very heated. I personally agree that we all take risks and there are a lot of respectable decent companies and commissioners out there. Beware of risks before paying but honestly it makes sense to take the money before hand because u don't know if they have the doll in hand and in stock before they send it or make it...if u don't like the waiting aspect order from dealers and not the companies then. Like MOC and Junkyspot and Denver Doll Emporium to name a few that r dealers that would reduce the risk because they talk to the comapanies for u. Just a thought.

 

This is something tricky to have a definite opinion on but I certainly have thought over it.

I think that it is reasonable for a company to only begin production once the doll is paid for completely. I'm an artist and I often sell my art and tried to do the whole, deposit now and I'll start and then you pay me everything when it is done. What is to say that person will pay the whole thing? Some people don't mind losing that refundable deposit, you know. Which is why I accept the terms of a company who says, "I make when you finish paying" as I understand that they are protecting themselves. It's not the same as going to buy a car where there is a binding contract you sign, and even then some people don't pay and return them (though with consequence, of course) ~ The Internet doesn't offer much security and there aren't many laws yet in place that really "punish those who break rules."

And yes, there are artists behind each doll. They need to be paid and I wouldn't design anything for anyone if they didn't pay me when I completed my work. There is a lot of work that goes into making a doll before we even see the "finished product" on the website.

As for unreasonable wait times. Casting, especially of resin, is a very delicate procedure. I would prefer waiting nine months for a doll that has been cast in optimum conditions than a speedy delivered doll made in sub-par conditions with all the consequence of it. Weather, temperature, humidity -- all of that is an important factor. They aren't just making MY doll -- they are making all these other dolls from people who ordered.

Now nine months does seem like an extreme wait time (assuming there wasn't a 6 month layaway in which case the production time would have been 3 months -- which is acceptable to me) for a doll but I suppose it all depends on the situation that has forced such a delayed process.

Moreover, assuming that some company said they start making the doll as soon as I put down a deposit; I don't want it. What if they make it in two months and I finish paying it four months later? My precious doll sitting God knows where for 4 months? No thank you. I prefer her sitting in her box for shipment than waiting for me to finish paying her... but of course those are just my feelings. ^_^

And finally, I wouldn't buy from a company (no matter how much I loved the doll) that had bad customer service. If someone cannot answer my emails on why my shipment is taking forever within a reasonable amount of time (taking into consideration time zone difference and language barrier) then I would be better off not buying. I also think that a company shouldn't make business with overseas costumers if they cannot communicate with them. There isn't such a thing as xx is doing me a favor by selling it to me, a foreigner, because they are getting something out of me in return for their exception. So, it is a mutual business and if I trust them with my money, they should at least have decent communication. I'd be willing to pay them more money if that's what it took for them to afford paying someone to translate. It's also true that one person's experience with one company doesn't mean it will be MY experience. Friends have ordered from companies with some (in)famous reputation for delay and they've had speedy results.

Reviews should be taken as a guide to buy, a sort of "this is how it has been for these people," and not an absolute opinion. In the end we are solely responsible for who we make business with.

 

I must not be a very "Me me me! I want I want I want! Now now now!" kind of person, because it has never occurred to me to bitch/whine/complain about having to pay someone to make a doll for me until I saw this thread.

 

You bring up some interesting things in this post thank you.

Often we are focusing on the poor conduct of the sellers in asking money up front but we are forgetting the poor conduct of the collectors. Nanyalin, I am not a person who sells any real products so I cannot speak from real experience but the few things I have sold on DOA have left me with the impression that there are a lot of flakes out there. People start a sale and then just vanish and change their minds or whatever. Back when I used Ebay more often I found it to be much the same. It didn't leave me with a good impression of the general public and I imagine it would be much worst for doll makers. Can you imagine what a pain in the butt it would be to accept half payment and then make the painful decision to resell the doll to another collector because the original buyer forgot, vanished, fell out the window, whatever? I worked in retail as a teenager long enough to know that IF you give away something that has been on "hold" for an eternity eventually the person will show up and act like a raving lunatic. One particular event comes to mind when a lady left 5 popular books that she ordered at the pick up counter at Walden Books and never returned our calls for 3 months. Normal holding time is 2 weeks! Finally we gave up and sold the books at Xmas time. Naturally, she appeared a few days later in the store and screamed until one of the cashiers cried. So tell me, can you picture a similar scenario playing out when some doll buyer puts down a 200 dollar deposit and then changes her mind and gets lazy about dealing with the rest of the sale until one day she finally decides to finish the sale and finds the doll sold? Sure she might be more MAD at herself for being flaky but SHE WILL take it out on the doll makers. Or just imagine the doll makers only days after they failed to receive another payment? Do they emailing everyday and spend their time tracking down the few who flake out? Just thinking of all this makes me cringe because it's just too complicated. If I were them I wouldn't want to deal with being in a constant holding pattern with flaky people and be forced into wasting my time tracking them down.

As for the point on piracy well...if some people are resorting to piracy then they are not really part of this hobby at all. Most likely they are the type of people who would look for any excuse to get a cheap doll and never cared about fairness, honesty, and creativity to begin with. Wait times don't create these people, they are just out there.

 

After what I've been through lately with Angeldolls I don't think you should have to pay the full amount as a preorder. I also collect Charlie Bears and when a new collection comes out, you preorder with a shop but don't pay anything until it comes in stock. There is just too much risk involved in the bjd world at the moment, a company such as Angeldolls might have good feedback when you look into it at first, then for whatever reason their business goes bad and the customers suffer and have to fight to get their money back.

Edited to add:

I would pay a deposit for the dolls as I believe that's the way to go. Both sides need to then honour the contract.

 

Nanyalin

Well I don't know about recasts waiting periods ... but NO , people buy recasts for 2 reasons one is that the genuine doll is sold out/limited and second and stronger one because they are cheaper.

We walk in stores see and buy with no risk because this way store has no risk too , there is no risk there to share so the example is not a usable one.
I also can't see how all that will help with quality control cause you still aren't able to see your doll before it arrives except if you make them photograph each one doll they produce and send the pics before sending the doll, are you aware how up the price will go if you force them to do something like that ...
About waiting I personally prefer Dollshe's policy to make his own dolls with full quality control of him and take 1 year than other companies policy who cast them abroad and while arriving faster once the resin is peachy , once creamy , once pinker and I talk about the same normal skin resin they suppose to have , I have 3 normal skin sooms each one in its own normality I suppose ...
Actually if you pay full price and waiting period goes more than 3months most credit cards have a period of 4-6 months to get money back only paypal balance has the 40days period , many people choose to not fill a claim inside those 4-6months & get full amount back because they prefer to hope for the doll instead of getting money back not because they can't , I have seen numerous times in dollfair thread "oh she scammed everyone I can fill a report through my bank but if there is 1% chance to get my doll I prefer the doll so I won't fill a report".. buyers are more protected from banks/credit card policies and paypal while seller has to protect himself alone ...
Now as an artist in an art group, we have dealt with flakes too and as , we are *ghm* too recessive to do what bjd companies do , for the sake to reduce risk of our side we had to reduce our audience to people we are comfortable/trust to sell to , imagine bjd artists becoming like that ...
And picture this, a new bjd artist opens a store online and deals with a number of flakes because p.e. -*"Oh he/she has nice dolls but oh why soom have this limited now … so I'll flake the standard doll of this newbie artist take the soom doll and then after x months I'll come back and scream to him/her for my doll"* and after a number of such deals couldn’t be that the above doll artist might decide to sell only inside his/her country or with terms like those I use... I can see many companies and artists not even be available for international or online sale if such rules (deposit & not full payment) were obligatory , wouldn't this be a pity.

 

I've seen that happen too, as well as people continuing to order from companies after people started posting about serious problems. I feel badly for anyone that got screwed over, because no matter what, it sucks. However, some choices are inherently riskier than others, and you can't always protect people from themselves. If someone is well aware of the risk, weighs their options, and still feels that it is worthwhile, than that's their decision to make. However, they have to be willing to take some of the responsibility if things go south. This goes doubly for the people who never bothered to check to see if their were problems in the first place. It's true that there have also been situations where the trouble came from out of no where, which is clearly not the buyer's fault. However, there have been a lot of bad situations that would've been preventable had buyers had simply been more aware.

 

I agree with Taco, there are times when someone orders from a company and have no idea it could take a long time but there are other times where people have started to post problems and there are known risks. I can't speak for Withdoll, but I can say that Everpurple is a PRIME example of the sort of company Taco is referring to. I was involved with 4 group orders with EP (1 of which I ran) and only the very first one when they had first opened their doors was even remotely close to their stated production times. It was pretty well known that EP always ran super late with production particularly if you purchased during their buy 2 get 1 free events. Communication was also always lacking, but I know I kept participating because if you did buy their eyes in a huge group order you could get some of the lowest prices for urethane eyes going. In the case of Dollflower, she/he doesn't even officially offer their eyes Internationally. It is only because one of the DoA members in Korea is willing to place group orders as a proxy that non-Koreans can order. Unless you are fluent in Korean, there is really no way to say that she/he is not updating buyers.

I personally don't mind the current system as long as sellers/companies stay in contact. It's when sellers/companies don't communicate that I feel frustrated and start to question why I puchased from this seller/company. I do tend to buy a lot of BlueFairy dolls because they consistently have wonderful dolls, have short waits for their standards and have superb communication. (I think they're a really underrated company.) I also just expect long waits from some places and balance that with how much I might want the items (which is why I was in 4 EP group orders.) But then I also remember having to pre-pay for my wedding gown and wait a couple months for that to be produced

And to throw out some more real world examples. Many Disneyworld packages sold by the WDW Travel Company expect you to pay for your vacation in full before you've gotten to take it.

 

This is an excellent example of what this thread is really about! Thank you! Bottom line is people are trying to say there are significantly more risks for us the doll buyers with this current pre-order with the full payment amount required policy, or layaway, and then we won't even start making your doll until you have paid in full program, that many of us would like to see change. We are'nt bitching about the prices, or about the companies making a fair profit. It would just give the buyer a more equal playing field in this marketplace that involves transactions with foreign countries with relatively long, silent, wait times.

I think we all understand that smaller companies cannot have 100 dolls ready to ship overnight and we are willing to wait for the doll to be completed in a timely manner once we order it. We just feel it is not fair to ask us to pay all the money up front and the company gets to often follow their own time frame to complete the doll, and we are technically forced to adhere to their work schedule from that point on, without any real guarrantee or assurance of when our doll will be completed and shipped. Often we are forced to communicate with Q and A boards or nameless "contact us" here links on websites and don't even have a customer service person's name or email to contact directly if there is a problem or we want to inquire about our order. We are often made to feel we are bothering the doll companies by asking them about the progress of our orders in the incoming doll threads. It just does'nt feel right that we spend hundreds of dollars and then have a hard time finding out anything about the status of our order other than "pending".

 

"I must not be a very "Me me me! I want I want I want! Now now now!" kind of person, because it has never occurred to me to bitch/whine/complain about having to pay someone to make a doll for me until I saw this thread."

This is entirely missing the point. We are not complaining about waiting, the prices, or paying someone for a doll (or at least, most of us aren't). We are discussing the huge problem inherent in paying all the money up front for a pre-order in another country, which potentially may never send us a doll.

I think that was an un-neccessarily rude and judgemental comment.

 

I agree with the whole "people flaking out" business though. Which is why production cost is sort of relevant - if the company is to not lose money via these people, the deposit needs to cover at least the production cost of the doll. I have no idea if that is actually feasible or such a high amount that you're paying most of the doll up front anyway :/

Yes, obviously it is up to us to research and assess the risk. That doesn't mean it's "fair" that we take all the risk. Life's not fair though, and this is why I will never pre-order a doll from a new company, no matter how low the price or pretty the doll

 

I used to go through a proxy when ordering dolls because the proxy allowed me to pay some money now, the rest when the doll was ready to ship. The proxy had marvellous feedback from others, and I'm not sure whether it was my horrible luck or simply because people weren't leaving negative feedback, but three times I ordered through the proxy - all three times I recieved damaged goods. I stopped after the third time, because that's the maximum amount of chances I can give someone. Once or Twice could still be horrible luck, but three times?

My point is that sometimes feedback isn't completely reliable. Having a system where one can get their money back in case something happens or some sort of damage occurs is more important to me than whether or not I have to pay up front. The clause that annoys me more than the 'payment upfront' clause of most doll compaines is the one which states that there can be no return or replacement for the doll if the doll is not up to the buyer's standard.

I have seen companies turn around and state that all sorts of shocking quality breaches are fully acceptable - bubbles, scratches, uneven headcaps, marbling, pitting - that customers themselves do not find acceptable. The market is incredibly seller oriented at the moment, and I do agree that there needs to be some more emphasis on the buyer's rights. All of their rights, not just whether or not they need to pay the entire cost of a doll upfront.

There's a saying at my work (I'm currently working retail while I look for a job in my field) which is "Without the customer, the store is nothing." As long as the customer has reasonable, acceptable expectations of quality, we must do our best to make sure that they are happy. To be honest, I see a lot of companies sending out half-finished dolls and then blaming the customer for expecting higher quality finishes to dolls that cost several hundred dollars.