No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

YES.

I tried to state this in a different thread once and got thoroughly shot down for the notion -- but I don't find it reasonable at ALL to need to wait 6-9 months for a doll I have paid for in full, when I can see that the company's focus is on cranking out a new sculpt every time someone sneezes.

Focus on getting the first job done first, thanks. Or allow me to make a substantial deposit and pay the rest when you're done.

As I've heard so often in MY job over the last couple of decades: "Just because we've 'always done it that way' doesn't mean it's the best way to do it."

While most of the [very strong] opinions in the thread so far have a degree of merit, I don't think there is any harm in pondering whether there might be a more equitable way of doing things that protects both parties a little better. Right at the moment it does seem more than a little one-sided in favor of the manufacturers, to me. When there were only half a dozen doll companies, they could ask us whatever they wanted for terms and we would go along happily because it was so darned hard to get the dolls at all. Now it's not. Time to ponder a slight shift?

 

As resin oxidises after it has been cast it will subtly start to change colour. A doll that has been stored for a few months after casting will be a different colour than the one the buyer is expecting (depending on the company, some resin formulas are more colour-stable than others) and companies will get complaints. Or they would have to offer the doll at a discount, at which they will get complaints from people who paid full price for the same doll.

The other issue is, within what time frame are companies allowed to give up on a flaky customer? One month without payment? Two months without payment? Three months? Six months? Do companies have to set aside time in their week to chase people up for payments? What happens when the customer comes back to finish their layaway 6 months after the balance was due?

Companies don't have access to feedback for their customers but customers can leave lots of feedback for companies. The customer who flakes on a layaway and comes back later will be very annoyed to find that their doll has been sold to someone else - you may be thinking "So what? They had their chance to pay and they didn't pay." However, they have the opportunity to go to different forums on the internet and give their side of the story, to tell other potential customers that they paid 1/3 of the price of their doll but the company sold the doll to someone else and kept the 1/3 deposit. This will damage the company's reputation and future sales. Sadly, companies can't tell each other to avoid flaky customers because the same customer can hide behind a number of different aliases.

 

Completely agree with Jescissa's points.

Also, with the 'flakes' issue- think about how many people post "Darn, I was gonna order a doll this month but my dog got sick/car broke down/had to buy school textbooks." Imagine if the companies were having to deal with "I WAS gonna pay, but...." all the time. Or the number of people who go "Darn, I wanted to order X standard, but Y limited came out, so I gotta pay for that first." Imagine the number of times they'd get "Can you just wait another month? I HAD to get this other limited first!"

In several of the waiting rooms I've hung out in, I've seen a lot of 'oh, ha ha, I forgot to pay my layawayl ast week!' or 'Hope they don't mind if I pay it slower, I put another doll on layaway too.' So I can't say it's an unreasonable concern for the companies, based on how I've seen numerous people handle their lawaways.

 

You still don't address the fact that customers can research the companies they're interested in, but companies have to accept orders from customers in good faith, with no opportunity to research them. People do flake on transactions, there are enough sellers in the Marketplace who have felt messed around regularly enough that they have caveats in their sales threads specifically referring to buyers potentially flaking out on them. We don't know how many companies have layaways cancelled or defaulted because the customer no longer feels like paying, but from a little market research in the Marketplace, if it happens to private sellers, it's going to happen to companies as well.

I feel that, with the companies I have dealt with directly (Volks, Fairyland, Soom and Leekeworld), I have had no problem trusting them and paying upfront for the products I'm ordering from them. I do my research, I feel that their quality is consistent and their customer service is excellent, and so I place my trust in them. The companies, in their turn, simply have to trust (with nothing to base that trust on), that I'm going to fulfil my layaway with them, or initiate a chargeback on my credit card and claim someone else made the purchase.

If we want more companies to operate on a layaway system and casting progress and payment installments to occur in stages, there will have to be some way of rating customers for reliability - some people don't care about the 1/3 downpayment. Even if the doll company states that 1/3 of the price is non-refundable, customers could still initiate a credit-card chargeback, or start a paypal dispute, which puts the deposit on hold while the claim is investigated. Even if the buyer doesn't get their money back, the company is stuck with a frozen account for a time and that doesn't look good to other customers.

I think part of this stems from the misunderstanding that because dolls are expensive, the companies that make them must be rolling in cash and can afford to have a few people flake off or materials wasted, but they're not and flakes are bad for business. A cancelled order can interrupt the production flow and if a company had their paypal account frozen because someone tried to get their deposit back, even if it was a non-refundable deposit, it would interfere with payments other customers are trying to make. It could disrupt the manufacturing process and interrupt with making new sales and taking payments for in-progress work.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against improvements in the hobby, but I really don't think that companies are going to adopt practices like these regularly, especially one-person studios. One person designing, casting, stringing, boxing and shipping dolls does not need flaky customers.

 

It might seem strange to some, but there are plenty of people out there who decide that $100-200 is an acceptable loss because they want something else more, and losing the deposit would still mean they'll have the money to buy the new shiny, whereas honouring the agreement means they won't. I've personally witnessed a person asking for the best way to weasel out of a layaway and get their initial deposit back (on another forum, I'm certain at least a few people from the other forum will remember the incident). Eventually it slipped out that they wanted another doll from a different company. I've also personally been jerked around by a layaway for two extra months over the agreed deadline by a buyer who claimed "cut hours" at their job. Then I accidentally came across their trying to negotiate a deal on a limited doll that cost over a thousand dollars, here, in the marketplace.

And the reality is this: in most real-life situations where you pay a deposit with the promise of a later payment, you agree to and sign a legal document, frequently co-signed by a witness/lawyer/someone who will vouch for you. This means your signature is on a legal document - which you are expected to read and acknowledge as the terms of the deal, which you automatically affirm by signing. This deal strictly outlines things such as payment deadlines, expectations of payment, and what happens when you do not pay. It's a legally binding agreement, breaking which can land you in court and other hot and potentially life-ruining trouble, like dropped credit ratings. That is not the case online. While clicking "buy" technically should be a legal agreement, because it's the internet, it's not binding. There's at least a few people a month who show up in the waiting rooms, or Buying and Shipping advice demanding to know why Soom hasn't shipped their dolly yet, even though it's already been a whole 4 weeks. The vast majority of them don't even have any idea that Soom has an 100 business day guarantee (an agreement to which they've stuck faithfully, by the way, including crediting all of the perks that THEY agree to on their end should they break that agreement), and they act absolutely outraged when they find out that their dolly could take up to 5 months to be manufactured, even though logic says that you should really read the company policy before you agree to buying their dolls. And therein lies the problem. Just because someone clicked buy and saw "nonrefundable" near the "deposit" doesn't stop them from thinking they have been wronged, even though they went against the terms they agreed to. It doesn't stop them from starting and potentially winning a paypal claim or a credit card chargeback, because there is neither a solid signed legal agreement, or real life consequences for their actions. The most the company could do is ban them from buying their products again - which they will then be able to take, twist and spin as a horrible mistreatment and discrimination story elsewhere on the internet. And then the company is out of the money, with a slightly damaged reputation, and probably a few angry/"disappointed" e-mails when the other buyers of the limited doll begin sending in the e-mails demanding to know why the limited doll that was supposed to only be sold during that specific period is back on sale.

And even if this could be avoided, the Dollshe discussion shows that the deposit would have to be somewhere in the area of half to two thirds of the doll's full cost to cover the manufacturing process of the doll and make sure the company isn't out of manufacturing cost if a bunch of people decide to default on their payments. Which is still a very significant chunk of money, and makes the hassle a bit... worthless.

Now, I will agree with one thing wholeheartedly though. It would be nice to get some kind of constant updates from a company. Maybe not necessarily personalized e-mails complete with pictures of your very own doll and a smiling face-up artist mid-progress, but something like a bit more transparency as far as manufacturing process goes. Say, knowledge of your batch number, and the company having a special place where they post updates as far as the progress of the various batches goes, and anyone who's waiting for a doll can go and check it out for a very general update once in a while. It would make the company seem more trustworthy and organized, and at the same time let buyers breathe more easily since the company is showing visible signs of life and progress.

 

I adore this idea. I think it's the most resonable plan that's come up. I don't really know enough about the BJD making process to say if going by batch number would really work as an option but some variation on this theme wouls still be workable I'd think.

BTW - Does anyone feel like this is closer to a debate than a gen. discussion?

 

I agree that regular updates would be a great thing, and would probably take less time to post an update per batch number than try to chase up individual orders on request. If two people knew they were in batch #001 and #010 respectively, they'd be able to follow updates for those batches only - and imagine how easily it would be to organise Waiting Rooms?! Companies wouldn't have to spend time finding out where Jane Dollowner's doll is, Jane Dollowner can find out for herself by checking the updates for her batch.

It would take time to establish, but I think if a company started doing it for one production line first it could be a really popular way to keep customers informed. The only thing I would be wary of is that, how many waiting buyers have had an email from a company saying that their doll will be ready 'soon'? If there is a natural disaster that affects production, companies are more likely to explain that to customers...but if someone mixes the wrong resin, or there's a bunch of unusable casts made because of the humidity...companies aren't going to want to explain this because they don't want to lose face or reputation. Disappointing customers by telling them that their doll isn't quite ready but will be 'soon' is easier and kinder on their reputation than having to explain that some plonker in the factory got the resin mix wrong and they've had to junk a lot of dolls... While I think in the west we'd be a bit annoyed by the delay but ultimately appreciate the honesty, the companies in the east would feel that they were damaging their reputation and casting doubt on the quality of their work if they had to publicly admit they had to junk some of their products.

 

I think it's a good idea. I would love to be able to pay half when I order the doll and half when I get the doll. But I suppose that's relying on people's honesty. I think it's also a bit of an added incentive to the company the make sure they make and ship the doll in a reasonable amount of time. Waiting six months for a doll is just ridiculous. I also agree with Jescissa a waiting room with regular updates on batches would be fantastic and it may even make the company more popular because of their efficiency. But saying that it will probably not happen...

 

I also agree that something like this would be nice. In the past six years I have thought that if companies gave their customers something other than silence on the progress of orders, they would not be bombarded with so much email. An update board would at least show that they remember our orders. I figured that it was some sort of cultural thing.

 

I think that's true of anyone, though. We hate to admit that we've failed, especially in a professional sense. I do believe however, that if a company was willing to take the leap and use this system, then other companies would see that the reputation isn't so adversely affected by these issues as another. Also, there's a lot of code in the manufacturing world that means 'something's gone wrong'. "Manufacturing delay/issue" is one of them. A company doesn't explicitly say 'the resin batch was mixed incorrectly.' if they're worried about what that might do to their reputation.

I think for a lot of people as well, knowing that there is a manufacturing issue that is resolved quickly is more important than knowing what the issue was. A little bit of honesty in "There was an issue, but it's fixed now" is better than silence and delays that people are not given a reason for.

 

Nor is it 0% risk for the makers in the BJD industry. Fairyland spent, what, almost three years designing the Feeple65 before releasing the first two? Fullsets are dealt with by more than a sculptor. There are faceup artists, clothing designers, clothing manufacturers, wig manufacturers, whoever takes the pictures and posts on websites in multiple languages, etc., before a single doll gets put in a shopping cart.

I personally don't see splitting up the payment as any kind of guarantee that the company would produce the doll any faster. If they can't get their, er, stuff together when paid in full, I don't see why they'd magically improve through uncertainty over whether they'd ever be paid in full.

And I've seen again and again even very desirable LEs come back up for sale due to cancellation, which generally means failure to pay on time because in the fine print of most BJDs sales cannot be cancelled. People do change their minds with great inconvenience to everyone else involved, sadly, far too often. Even if they think they've sold a doll, a BJD company can't be sure they'll actually get the money.

More communication and more explicit communication would be appreciated, though I've been fortunate in all my dealings with actual BJD companies. Once you get into the individual eye makers and such, things get more chaotic. I think many of us waiting for Mystic eyes have just felt that we could do without imaginary dates the order will be done and been happier with a general update of the progress of the order. But I'd only want those if they could be done accurately and without slowing down the actual production process, which is probably asking too much.

 

That would be great. It might also give more people a better understanding of why their doll is taking a certain amount of time to be made.

 

Hi Nanyalin, I took the time to respond to your message so I wish you would do the same with mine. The "flakers" comment that I and others have made had possible explanations as to why companies would find the deposit more trouble than it's worth. I'm sorry that you mostly deem the people who agree with you as being "articulate" and "coherent" but certainly some of us are doing our best to explain what might be the issue for the companies in question? (As a side note, I find that your posts are very clear and easy to understand so I'm not sure why you are concerned with your English! It's very good.) In the end this is a debate and I admit that for me it's a tough one because I can see valid issues on both sides of the fence.

 

This definitely has turned into quite a debate which I find interesting. Many people are taking on the concerns of the manufacturers vs. the consumer which to me is a unique stance to take.

There are always good and bad aspects to all hobbies and things in life and we all have our personal reactions and opininons about their impact and importance and may not always agree. I get that. But, I think it is worth taking a critical look at some of the negatives in the hobby, while trying to keep emotions in check and not get into the attacking mode or taking things personally if people don't agree with your opinion. This debate could be a place to share experiences and suggest solutions or alternatives that we would like to see in the future and to support each other. That is a productive way to seek out improvements. Brainstorming about what we would consider as an ideal situation as a BJD buyer is a legitimate way to investigate possible solutions/ strategies. However, discounting ideas and trying to speak for the hundreds of companies out there that range from 1-2 person operations to larger companies seems like generalizing to me. Without having actual numbers and facts on the incidence of buyer cancellations and other production issues for every company, I don't know if that is really an issue or not.

But, if indeed asking companies to take half payment for an order and taking the remainder when the doll is finished is unrealistic because of the masses of flakey buyers out there and potential losses in revenue, what are some other ideas that could decrease the risk for the buyer? I guess I would really like companies to allow refunds for massive defects as well. The issue of having no financial recourse when receiving defective merchandise because of the lengthy timeframes for orders to be completed is even more of an issue to me than the payment issue, but both are things I would like to see changed somehow.

 

Hmmmm, yes and no. Yes, I agree with you about the "saving face" thing. I believe that's a large (maybe the only?) reason they respond with "soon", rather than "it was too humid for 3 weeks so we couldn't cast anything." But remember when Fairyland and Dollmore announced their prices would be going up? The apologized again and again for the inconvenience. And then their websites/blogs/Facbook/whatever lit up with positive praise from the doll community. I don't remember reading one negative comment. Most people were surprised the price hike didn't happen sooner, and were completely supportive of the change.

Personally I'd love a batch system like you mentioned. Can you imagine how many fewer "when's my doll shipping" questions there would be? They could also post delay times. Something like "Doll X batch #110 was delayed due to thunderstorms." They could even keep it anonymous, listing orders by account names rather than real names.


Edited to add: I've also never heard of any Withdoll fiasco. I know they had a bit of a delay due to flawed casting of their tan resin. But I only waited 3ish months for my Fenrir. Not much more than a Soom MD, and he arrived in perfect condition.

 

I think a change like this would be a positive one. If customers didn't have to worry that they would have to fight (and possibly lose the claim) for a refund if their doll was damaged or defective, I think paying upfront would be less of an issue, or at least paying 1/3-1/2 of the cost upfront.

I just think that expecting companies to place a whole lot of faith in anonymous customers is unrealistic, considering there is no feedback system for customers, only companies. Especially if they're expected to send the doll and then receive the final payment. No one on the Marketplace would allow you to pay half a layaway up front and then the rest of the money after you've sent them the doll, companies wouldn't do this either.

I agree with you. Fairyland and Dollmore are more 'west-savvy' than a lot of eastern companies though, I think. They still have curious translations sometimes, but for the most part, they communicate quite well and their updates are quite regular. Part of the reason people were so supportive of the price rises was that we could see that they had held off price increases for as long as they could, and customers appreciate the company going above and beyond for them like that.

Fairyland has an English-language Twitter and regularly gives updates through that, so they may be more inclined towards a batch number updating system if they're already used to giving updates.

 

What I would love, would be 50% down and once your doll is ready to ship the other 50% plus shipping. I have been waiting for a group order I placed since Jan 3rd. I hope I get the darn thing but my hands are totally tied. That being said this is the ONLY time I have ever had an issue with any doll related orders.
It is hard because well, I want the doll so I am going to pay for it. It would just be nice if that payment could be broken up. This is why I love Kerby Lane and We Love dolls, they allow you to make payments.