No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

First let me say that this discussion is very interesting, and I think both sides make excellent points. Personally I think this is the most engaging debate I've seen on DOA, at least in a long time.

I think that what Chibihaku has just said is a very apt description. Although it is unnerving, I don't mind paying 100% upfront if I can trust that the product will arrive on time and in perfect condition. The real problem for me is that companies will extend the wait time (often multiple times) using vague, non-convincing excuses. Even worse, if there is a problem with a doll-a legit problem, like white flakey areas from spraying MSC in humid weather, bubbles in resin, parts of the doll not latching and fitting correctly-most companies I know simply say "That is acceptable quality" and do nothing. I have seen people complain about silly things like seams, which occur naturally in the proces and are removable, or poor tension, the maintenence of which I believe falls under the category of expected doll maintenance, and I agree that the company is not responsible for these issues. But bubbles in the resin? Pitting? Parts that don't fit together? These are serious problems, and companies that I have always thought were trustworthy are jumping on this bandwagon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that quality control is more of an issue for me than how much you pay at what time during the process. I can see where doll companies don't want to refund a doll- it's a loss for them. But maybe it would help if companies had a page with "acceptable faults" in their dolls, like seam lines, and "unnacceptable faults" that they would be willing to address, such as pitting and parts that don't fit properly.

I also agree that having updates on the status of your order would be a relief, and lots of fun! It doesn't take long to address pre-made descriptions to the seller. Ie, "your doll was cast today," "doll sprayed today," "faceup complete." You know?

These are just my ideas and I have no idea if they are actually useful

 

Thanks Nanyalin! I was thinking about it today and I wonder if it isn't just tooooo easy for me to be cold and objective because I haven't been burned yet! If I had I might be much more up and arms because it's not just about the money it's about that feeling of being taken advantage of. I get that, but I can't think of how to solve the problem exactly. I have a feeling that doll companies can't really afford to have "customer services" departments to handle buyers from overseas?

bronzephoenix I agree with your point about this debate! This is a great topic to dig into.

 

I agree that quality and communication are important factors. I can wait for a doll, and honestly if it's the difference between waiting a bit longer or getting a doll with issues, I'm really fine with waiting. However, I also need to have some idea what is going on if things are taking longer than normal. If a company has a reputation for long wait times and tends to be unresponsive to customers, then I would be wary of dealing with them. If there's an issue, I need to know that they are willing and able to communicate with me. From reading both company feedback and feedback for buyers and sellers here on DoA, the thing that sticks out the most to me is how many issues arise from lack of communication.

I have no problem paying upfront, but I definitely have things that make me less likely to buy from a particular company, and really good customer service is a lot more likely to get me to become a repeat customer. It's something I value more the longer I'm in the hobby.

 

Definitely this!

I'm willing to wait a little longer if quality was the reason. I don't want a company rushing to get my doll to me, only to find out that the joints don't work well, or the color has marbled significantly. If a week or two is the difference between a professionally done product and a shoddy one, I'll take it. That being said, I'm also not going to order from a company that doesn't reply to emails, and doesn't tell me what's going on.

I read feedback for info regarding quality mostly, and then I look on the company website for shipping times. I have my own standards, and I know what I'm willing to put up with. For example, I can only wait so long. I've waited two months without pulling my hair out, but I don't know if I can wait too much longer - definitely not a year. If a company has a very long wait time, I can't do it.

 

I don't know what companies you've been ordering from, but I've been the hobby probably as long as you, and I've never had a majorly delayed order, nor have I ever lost out on money from a company. In fact, the opposite, I've had a company accidentally send me something expensive and told me I can just keep it instead of asking for it back.

You keep saying the amount of flakes isn't that high, but I think the other side is the same - the amount of people losing out to the makers isn't that high either. The only difference is that we can leave feedback for them, but they can't for us. We, the buyers, DO HAVE protection against companies, in the form of feedback. However, the companies don't have any protection from us.

 

I'm going to second sailorstarsun. I've had really long wait times. And I know it can be frustrating. But I've never, ever lost that kind of money to a doll company. Quite the opposite! A friend of mine recently received a doll with a damaged head (the latch snapped off). The company sent her a brand new head for free and told her to keep the broken one. She could easily glue the latch back on and sell the head for $200 on the MP.

Nanyalin - Your friend has one immediate recourse: post about it here! I know one feedback amongst hundreds doesn't sound like much. But believe me, it works. Just take a look at the damaged Fairyland dolls thread. Only a handful of people have received damaged dolls. But the impact of their transactions are spreading. Many others are putting off buying from Fairyland (a company with stellar feedback, BTW) until the issues are resolved.

 

Nanyalin, that is obviously very upsetting for your friend and I hope something works out to correct it...but if she doesn't let other people know about her experience through feedback, the company are going to continue with bad practices and carry on getting customers who are going to experience the same problems - really, honest and accurate feedback saves a lot of people a lot of heartache and can turn a miserable situation for one person into a better situation for many.

I haven't lost money on a doll or been scammed or received damaged goods, and I only know of one person personally who has been scammed through a doll sale, and I feel that the people who have had bad experiences are in the minority. It doesn't demean what they've been through - it's everyone's nightmare that the company will fold or their doll will be damaged or stolen in the post - but when it comes down to companies stalling for no good reason or products being terrible quality or someone just plain steals money you gave them in good faith, you can protect others by giving accurate feedback.

 

I just updated myself on what everyone was talking about.

Many commentators are talking about the value of feedback, and how important research is, and how that will save you money if everyone would post and read the feedback.

These statements are making it sound like people who loose money on bad companies (or companies going through "hard times") are stupid. "they should of read the feedback, then they would have known not to order from XXX"

It is unfair to assume that everyone that looses money failed to ask questions and read feedback. Companies usually have great feedback for a while, and out of nowhere they disappear/have problems and unfulfilled orders at that time had no idea these problems were going to happen.

Some people took this hobby's gamble and lost. And there was no psychic feedback that could have prevented it.

 

That certainly wasn't my intention, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe anyone has actually said that.

What has been said is that people should be leaving accurate feedback more often, there have been no criticisms that people haven't read feedback or researched companies - if people do search feedback and people aren't leaving feedback when there are problems it's not the person who did the research's fault. They did everything possible to try and make sure it's plain sailing.

There is a reticence in this hobby to give negative feedback in case it looks like they're whining or making a fuss over nothing; this probably is not true. What we have been saying is that if there is an aspect of the transaction that hasn't gone as well as you hoped, please be honest about it in feedback because your honesty in feedback is going to influence other people's decisions and may even help them avoid a bad situation.

I think there is a tendency to be so relieved you finally got your doll that you'll gloss over any negatives and just count yourself lucky...this isn't going to be useful for the other poor souls who could be mixed up in transactions with the same company after you. If they're slow to ship, say so. If the doll's colour isn't even all over, say so. If your doll was sent to the wrong person and you had a nailbiting three weeks to wait and see where your doll ended up, please, please, say so...because you'll be helping someone else avoid the same problems you encountered.

This isn't about people not reading feedback, it's about people needing to leave feedback. If you do leave feedback, thank you, if you don't at the moment, please do.

 

That is quite the isolated incident though, isn't it? I know that not everyone does research, but that's no reason for someone not to leave feedback for others.

That aside, I'm really enjoying this debate, everyone has lots to say and are communicating their points really well - as it has become a debate, I'll move it to the debates subforum

 

I wanted to expand on what Jescissa said about feedback. I agree that many people are afraid to leave negative feedback because they don't want to come across as whiny. Personally I don't look for negative or positive feedback. I look for honest, factual feedback. "This doll took 6 months to ship, which is too long for me" is much more helpful than "doll took too long to ship not buying from them again." Maybe I'll agree with you about 6 months being too long to wait. Or maybe 6 months is nothing compared to other wait times I've been through. Post facts about your transaction and let me make the decision.

Nanyalin - But a huge chunk of this hobby is research. Let's take it outside of dolls for a second. Let's say you were drooling over a customized computer. Your friend decided to buy it for you as a present, not realizing it takes several months to gather the components and build the computer. What your friend did is very, very sweet. But he should have done some more research before purchasing the gift. I agree with you about the wait time posted on Dollshe's site. The company has an obligation to stick to the facts. However, he ordered a custom object for you. I don't expect any custom object (dolls or otherwise) to ship out right away.

 

There is always a factor of buyer beware in ANY sales transaction you make, even for stores where you purchase in person. How many people actually bother to read return policies and then flip out when they find they can't return an item that doesn't work for them because they didn't pay attention or ask about returns? I can tell you it's not a lot from years of having to work retail. And this is why research for feedback and reviews are important for when you are putting a lot of money into something. I admit I find it difficult to be very sympathetic to people who order from companies who have YEARS of known wait time issues that span for months and months and then complain about the wait times after they order. It's like walking into a car dealership without having done any research on cars, believing everything the sales person tells you, and not asking any questions, only to take the car home and realize it's a lemon or that it doesn't have air conditioning standard.

Isolated incidents do occur and no one can fully prepare for those, and often the best way to cover your own rear in these situations is to pay in a way that insures the best chance of recovery of your funds, for example using credit cards instead of Paypal balance.

I have been involved in problem transactions, so I do understand the stress involved and that sometimes it can come out of nowhere, but there are often warning signs people ignore and sometimes people need to recognize that they are part of the problem if they keep giving money to companies with extreme wait times, poor customer service, shoddy quality etc etc.

 

It's bewildering to me the aspects of doll production which are not being addressed here. I feel that a lot of people do not properly understand the method by which dolls are produced, which can sometimes lead to a sense of bewilderment as to the cost of the final product. Let's say you want to cast a single doll. You may end up going through three to four moulds pours just to produce a single usable product. Resin is so easy to mess up when you're pouring/baking it, and a single bubble in the surface of a product means the entire product must be tossed aside and redone. Dolls are not something you can simply melt back down to recover the product on. That's three, possibly four batches of resin (which isn't all that cheap when you start getting into huge quantities like this) you're simply throwing away because the very art of crafting these things is an inexact science. So for every doll you see that's finished, there are usually a few dolls which came before it that could not be used or sold. That kind of waste has to be factored into the final price. Then you have to consider that certain colors of resin are more difficult to generate than others (specifically, black resin is nearly impossible to get a perfect, even tone on) and you increase the amount of unusable product by XYZ, depending on so many factors, e.g. season (resin doesn't set if it's humid outside, and it's humid a lot in Asia), etc.

I don't think it's at all unusual that the dolls cost what they do, on average, given how difficult it is to make a flawless cast.

 

Whilst in an ideal world that would be lovely, I can see a number of reasons why different manufacturers structure their payments the way they do. There are so many doll companies out there that the manufacturers need to have the cash in advance in order to function, buy stuff in bulk and so pass on the savings to us. Unfortunately, any high-price enterprise is going to have a few con-artists and some companies that through no fault of their own, in this unstable time will run out of cash/energy/health and be unable to fulfill the orders that they have.

I totally understand that the doll produced may not be an exact clone of the photographs and face-up artists probably have bad days as well as good ones. I truly hope that my first doll will be pretty but at the end of the day all that I can rely on is the original photograph as a guide to the style of doll they produce.

Maybe things have moved on from your original post by now and I'd wish you every success and support an enterprise like this but I can't help but feel this is a niche product so people power is limited.

As to crooks and dodgy dealers all you can do to protect yourself is to look for feedback, buy as much as you can via recommendation (this group is great for that), do a little research and, if it looks okay and you're happy, take a gamble. You are relying on trust and there will be some people out there trying to break that trust but I tend to look on the glass half full and focus on the many positive transactions that take place instead. I have also ordered through an intermediary rather than direct which can also add more risk than ordering direct but the shop has a good reputation and so does the company so I've done all that I can. Things might still go wrong but as I can't look into the future I can't predict that, just gotta metaphorically cross my fingers!

 

Getting regular updates on production from all companies would be wonderful. But, not all companies have an English blog, or can hire an English-language blogster to take on this work for them.

I've seen some companies that use their website's News forum to make announcements or warnings, like Iplehouse; if they're surprised by bad storms, or if they're reducing production in preparation for the rainy season, or even if they're going on vacation, they'll announce it there.

The best blogger of all I've ever dealt with is DD-Anne, who is a good example of what happens when you boil the whole dollprocess down to 1 person. She happens to have great English & keep an English blog, so you get constant updates of what she's doing right now: she has to move into a new studio so she has to stop dollwork for a month.. a rant against the weather, so all casting is on hold.. here are twelve Near heads drying in their racks after casting... problems with the Light Tan resin formula means another month delay... she had to change the fullset outfit's design because she couldn't get the beads she originally wanted.... "I will start to ship the second batch of Lotuses on Tuesday...." "The Alice outfits took longer than I thought..." "I designed all the boxes today! Now I just have to put them together..."

Not only do you really get a sense of the incredible expense & effort that goes into doll production, when it's all being done by 1 person, but she's also keeping her buyers updated and informed on progress, so they feel better about where their money went. Still, one must bear in mind that larger companies cannot always afford such individualized treatment, so you don't usually get that kind of progress-blogging, unless there is somebody dedicated to the task.

Re money: Sure, I concede that it'd be really nice to be able to pay on a deposit-and-balance system.... However, I also appreciate that this isn't practical for doll companies. Because I've seen with my own eyes that a 30% deposit wouldn't pay for all that work + materials that DD-Anne put into my Lotus Near. She needed that payment in full before starting. It IS nice to purchase through Kerbey Lane & only have to put 30% down, then pay up when it's time to ship. But most of the time I buy directly from companies I trust & have had years of experience with (Volks, Soom, Iplehouse, Dollmore), and feel no qualms-- due to the simple fact that I trust them not to run off with my money, because they've earned my trust. I don't mind the waiting-periods.

On the other hand, when it comes to Gumdrops preorders, I fling all feedback & cautions to the wind. I've bought from them many times, both before & after they did a disappearing act-- because I love the product enough to assume the risk. I know there's a very good chance they might disappear for a long time without shipping my eyeballs! It becomes Faith-Based Buying at its best. But I consider it a calculated risk, because of the fact that they eventually come through & haven't burnt me yet (knocks wood).

The manifesto's grievances have some validity, but I will not be lighting my torch nor sharpening my pitchfork today, sorry.

 

I just had to jump in to say, holy jebus, yes. It took significantly longer to get my Cheshire Cat than the initial estimate but it never felt like a problem. I would so happily buy from her again because she was absolutely amazing about updates. I felt completely comfortable throughout the whole process.

I realize that with a bigger company, such a thing may not be practical, but that really is unfortunate. I would think that even a fraction of the communication she provided could go a long way toward making people feel less worried when production times creep up.

I can see why people would worry when it's been longer than expected and they have no idea what's going on with their product, and why people would favour the idea of having less money invested into a doll that may never show up. However, I can also see all of the reasons this wouldn't work for the companies producing the dolls. To that end, it seems like better, more frequent communication would be the ideal compromise.

 

Huh, I had no idea that people didn't like to leave negative feedback. I agree, just put down the facts, let other people decide if it is acceptable or not.

A lot of this debate is really centered on the idea of 'what is acceptable and what is not' now that i'm thinking about it. Some people are just more 'risk adverse' than others, so they feel more tense about wait times and large up front payments than others.

 

You very often express things MUCH more clearly than I am able to. Really.

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I'm struck by a post (which I have now lost track of) that says "people on both sides"...

I don't think there necessarily ARE sides, when you really start teasing out the main themes that are emerging here. Everyone seems to agree that the current situation isn't ideal; everyone seems to agree that all parties carry some degree of risk; nobody likes waiting forever and a day AND nobody wants the doll companies who are usually trustworthy to end up on the short end of things, either, because we all know they need to be paid and to pay their workers, and so on.

What's really a sticky problem is... how does it get adjusted? Surely after 10 years or more of dolly trade in this area there must be better approaches to business, given that there will always be risk on both sides of any transaction.

I have to disagree with the statement that a purchase isn't a binding contract if it's on the Internet. It may not be *enforceable* for practical reasons, but it's still a binding agreement. But I'm not a lawyer (I quit after a year) so if I'm wrong about this I wish someone would point me in the direction of the applicable rulings/case law/what have you. (Not just an opinion, a fact). Because I hate not knowing crap.


ETA: Awtan -- I recognize most of the people who have been commenting in here as long-time collectors who know very well indeed how long it takes and how fraught with potential issues the doll-creation process is. I believe most of us are quite willing to accept that ("dang, we've had a major typhoon here and well, when it's 100% humidity with 100 mph winds, casting just doesn't go well!")

But I see no reason for a company to expect nearly a grand up front (many are willing to do that), state that their product will be delivered in X range of weeks from payment (we all understand how that goes) and then have major delays without at least saying SOMETHING. Answering questions asked of them on their Q&A sites would be helpful -- some companies just don't. Having a delay is understandable. Having a delay of MONTHS isn't, while they are sitting on thousands of customers dollars.

In my opinion.