No Full Payment Until Dolls are Done

Though to be fair, I've been around for nearly 7, and I've had yet for a company to rip me off *knock on wood.* Most of my doll friends have been similarly lucky. I'm genuinely sorry that so much crap has happened to you, but many people don't have experiences anywhere near that bad. Granted the more you enter into transactions, I suppose statistically the chance of having something go wrong increases. Still, there are far far far more companies on the up and up than companies that have scammed people. That's a bit of a problem with this thread -- it makes it sound as though the hobby is rife with the kind of experiences you've had, but that's not really the case. Crap can definitely happen to good people, but that doesn't mean that the whole system of doing things can and should be changed when by far most experiences seem to be positive. The really bad stuff is what usually gets reported and noticed as hobbyist want to warn each other, ask for advice, commiserate, etc, and that alone can make it seem as though things are much worse than they really are.

Oh, and about CH -- by this time, people should realize that they are taking a chance when buying from them. They've had iffy business practices for years now, and it's been pretty heavily discussed around here. The original people to get caught up in it would've had no way of knowing, but since then there has still been a fair number of orders headed their way. I think this underscores the need for hobbyists to be aware of what's going on before they make large purchases. The same could be said about the whole Dollfair fiasco -- people continued to stick up for the company and make purchases after other customers where quite vocal about there being serious problems. It sucks when ever anyone gets caught in messes like that, but we also have to take some responsibility for our choices when it comes to which companies we want to support. There was no way of knowing Unidoll was going to go out the way they did, but instances like them and Happy Doll are not any where near the norm. If a company is having a history of getting swamped and taking short cuts with their quality control, then people need to not order from them. We have more power as consumers than it gets made out. There's a lot of info and feedback out there for a lot of these companies, but hobbyists need to be willing to take the time to use it.

 

I hope I don't get ripped off... but I guess that's why I scour the feedback threads like crazy whenever my interest in a doll from another company is piqued.

While I don't mind paying all the money up front if I'm dealing with a reputable company--like Luts, since that's who I am going to be buying from in the near future--the idea of giving a payment at the time of placing the order, and then paying the rest once you get confirmation of the doll's completion is a good one.

But it could come back to bit the companies. One could make a payment then back out. The company did make some money, but they can't just pay their workers for part of the work, when a complete doll has been made... but I guess layaway work the same... I can't be sure since I don't plan to use layaway so I haven't bothered to see how it works.

 

I somewhat agree with the OP, even though I have been happily purchasing dolls within the established system for many years.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see companies charging an appropriate deposit at the time that the order is placed with the rest due upon the order's completion.

To elaborate, I wouldn't mind the deposit being 50% of the cost, or thereabout. This non-refundable deposit should be enough to cover the materials needed to cast the doll and all labor associated with casting and assembling, so that if a buyer flakes, the company would not be out of money for having this particular doll cast. The final payment would cover R&D, profit, etc. With the above setup, if the buyer flakes, the company will be left with 50% of the item cost plus the item, which, most likely, will be resold to another customer. The customer will lose the deposit, and, of course, will not get the doll. I feel that this would distribute the risk of doing business more equitably between the company and the client.

My reason for wanting such a system is twofold - it will improve wait times and quality of the dolls, and, by offering buyers a chance to recover at least some of their money, should the company go under or send out an inferior product with refusal to offer a resolution. Since PayPal is so widely used in this hobby, the current 'pay in full upfront' system coupled with long waiting times pretty much means that should there be issues with the order, the buyer is out 100% of the purchase price, as PayPal offers a window within which to file a dispute that is generally shorter than the amount of time it takes for most companies to ship out an order.

Yes, majority of companies are perfectly trustworthy and will offer excellent customer service should there be a problem with the doll, but, similarly, most customers are also serious about their purchase and will not cause problems for the company. The 50/50 system would guard both customers and sellers from the bad apples that do appear once in a while.

Speaking from personal experience, I never had to deal with a selling system that is the norm for BJDs. For example, my wedding dress, which was custom-made in France, required a 50% non-refundable deposit, with the rest due upon arrival of the dress at the salon. For custom jewelry, a similar scheme to what I suggest above was used - I paid for basic labor and materials up front, with the rest due upon completion of the project. As both of my examples are of made-to-order luxury items, I feel that they are valid business models for BJDs as well.

Having said this, I realize that the established practices probably won't change. However, should a company take up the 50/50 business model, I would definitely support it wholeheartedly.

 

Unpopular opinion: I think companies selling such expensive items have the right to request money up front.

I work in a custom frame shop, and orders can get really expensive. My shop used to take a deposit and have the customer pay the rest at pickup, but too many people flaked. Hell, people still flake after paying the full amount *eyes 300$ worth of frames that have been sitting here for three months*.
And if a company offers layaway, that's great. It's the company's choice.

 

I think companies have a right to ask for money up front....
People do flake, after all, and it's tough to deal with all those people who flaked.
Sure, they can sell one extra doll, but if it's meant to be LE but there's many people who flaked, it can be hard on the company.


Of course, I wouldn't want to wait many months if I did that.

 

I do believe companies could do a bit better by their customers. They could offer 1/2 down - non refundable - with remainder (automatic debit) 2 weeks before shipment. Many artists work that way and some doll artists. It just seems a fairer way to do business.

I am currently PO at a US doll store that took my order, but did not place it for almost a month. Their company policy page (over one page long) states this may happen, but how many of us wade through over a page long of rules. Besides I never found a US doll store that did that before - so a new one on me. I have ended up with a 4 month wait while they have all my money. More aggravating as I could have ordered directly from the doll company and had my items by now.

We love our dolls but I do think their could be some improvement in how the companies require payment. Layaway would be great if they placed your order at the time of the layaway (most doll stores do in US - with dolls like R. John Wright, etc) but BJD companies for the most part do not place the order until you are fully paid.

Just my thoughts...

 

Limited editions, monthly dolls, in that situation a non-refundable half-down payment sounds like a fair compromise. Full payment to a new or limited-offering artist, then maybe full payment because the situation is different.

When an established company runs a super-sale, why don't they anticipate and have SOME inventory ready? Surely shipping could be handled better than customers waiting four/six/eight/etc months for their "special price" bjd. . ..the company could stop taking orders at some point and begin accepting orders again at a later time. Whatever, but:

My BIG issue is with the long-established companies who have the same stock heads and bodies. All other businesses assume some risk simply by being in business. Why do we fund companies who have been in business long enough to afford having some inventory by now? Companies such as Volks, Luts, Soom, AOD, Dollzone, etc---seems to me they ought to have some on-hand inventory and be willing to eliminate waiting for their regular items. Certainly BODIES and blank stock heads could be shown as 'in stock' and shipped right away. Waiting a month, two, three, etc for standard items from those and other companies seems a sad practice our bjd community tolerates.

Dollstown and ShinyDoll are two companies that come to mind who yes, DO carry items in stock and ship quickly--To own one of their products they don't require customers to fund their basic business.

None of us would order a current-year IPod, a refrigerator, a backpack, etc, fully pay for it, then expect to wait months for it to arrive. To me there is no excuse for the mentality of the well-established companies---'send us all the money now but you can just hurry up and wait"--- when the order is for a standard-stock blank bjd head or standard body.

 

Well said!

 

But Volks DOES have in-hand inventory of its regular-edition dolls, and ships those in-stock dolls immediately. It's also quite simple (well, if you're in the right place ) to walk into a Volks shop, buy an in-stock doll, and walk out with it within minutes. Granted, sometimes Volks (either the North American or the International site, not to mention the bricks-and-mortar shops) doesn't have full stock of every unlimited doll at every moment, and buyers may sometimes have to wait for restock, but . . . the same is true for Dollstown.

And since Volks simply doesn't sell bodies or heads separately outside events such as workshops (Dollfie Dream parts and such option parts as hands and feet are the exceptions to this policy), I don't quite see how this criticism fits them. But maybe there's some nuance in your point about Volks that I'm missing here? I don't know enough about the other companies you list to have any real sense of how their business practices work.

What Dollstown DOES do differently from most other dollmakers--exceptionally well, IMO--is clearly indicate on their site which dolls, parts, and resin colors are in-stock, which are available for pre-order, and which aren't available at all right now. It's a great system.

 

This is true. I could go into the shop tomorrow and buy any standard doll. Limited dolls are paid for in full at events and brought home that day or within a short-period of time. FCS are paid for at the time of the order, but there is a week-long period within which one can change his or her mind free of charge. The doll is custom-made to customer specifications and the wait period is a reasonable two months. The initial Gou release and a couple of DD releases earlier this year were eligible for deposits with the remainder due upon completion.

I think for any custom-made product full payment is not an unreasonable request from a reliable company. The real question, however, is how can one define a "reliable company"? Even from so-called "reliable companies" there will be a risk. Always. And, whether one pays in one lump sum or with a deposit and final payment, that risk remains. If a company plans on running off with people's money, it can do so no matter how people pay or when. PayPal cannot return money from an account if there is no money to return.

To be honest, I have the feeling that the debate centres upon a perceived power struggle between customer and company. The truth is, people either want the doll or they do not want it. Demand often dictates wait times, particularly with open orders. I feel it really comes down to having the chance to buy a doll and waiting a long time or not getting the chance at all because it is "too" limited. This is not about power. It is about paying for a custom-made product and then waiting for it and trusting the company to deliver. More often than not, they do deliver even if it takes a long time.

I once waited nearly two years for a doll of another doll type because of quality issues. I paid an insane amount of money for that doll. I have taken the risk. I have waited anxiously for news. I have stressed out over whether or not a doll I bought would arrive. I have no regrets since I have the doll, but it is not an experience I would like to repeat. To be honest, that is why I only buy Volks. I know their system and I can go to a shop if I have an issue. I really could not be bothered with the new companies because I am tired of seeing so many come and go. It is exhausting to keep up with them all.

I would love to be the "niche" collector with cool dolls from a bunch of small companies that are so unique and amazing, but the risk is too great when I live in a place where I can walk into a shop and buy dolls in-person from an established company. I really do think we as collectors choose the risks we are willing to take. And, I think that is also why I choose to pay more for Volks even though I could find the same aesthetic for cheaper from Korean companies. I am paying not only for a doll but also for peace of mind. It is a price I am willing to pay, but it is not the same for everyone, especially those who live outside Japan.

I do think it is important for every collector to define his or her comfort levels with making these kinds of purchases. If the stress gets too great it can take the joy out of the hobby. That said, I think it is important to be respectful that other people like to define their own comfort levels. The system is not broken. As individuals in the hobby we choose who we buy from and every company is different, so there is something for everyone not only in terms of dolls but also in terms of the buying process.

 

elphsnt,
One problem that I see with what you are saying...Not all of us love Volks dolls. Some of us prefer the more unusual or perhaps like the Iplehouse dolls - the very realistic. I for the most part enjoy the very realistic faces. I do not mind waiting but I do like good customer service and it would be nice if the larger companies worked harder at that and did offer a 1/2 down non-refunable option. Yes, I could confine my purchases to larger companies that offer in-stock dolls but in that case I would probably leave the hobby. Why should those of us who prefer a different style doll be punished by companies that take us for granted. Perhaps, if they saw a movement by a large group of BJD collectors that said we will no longer fully pay for a doll before shipment - they would start listening.

Elysion - I am just catching up reading on this thread and would like to say that just because some of us wish to see companies give better customer service and provide us with better options on paying we are not ranting or snit-ing - necessarily.

We certainly allow you to disagree (and are not calling you names) but we also have a right to voice our beliefs without being called names. This thread - I believe- is to try to make changes in how BJD companies do their business with us. I think that in the beginning the Korean companies started this full payment up front because they were small companies and did need the working capital. But that is no longer true of many of these companies. It seems that the customers have allowed this to go on and now it will take a group of people saying we won’t purchase anymore from large companies that work in this way. None of us wish to put companies out of business. I know a few artists and they often work on commission with either nothing down or very little down. They are able to make a living.
Certainly disagree all you want but please refrain from boxing us into people that somehow enjoy complaining. That is not what we are doing here..

RE Anna Having said this, I realize that the established practices probably won't change. However, should a company take up the 50/50 business model, I would definitely support it wholeheartedly.

Well said Anna. I think it will be hard to change these practices but it does not hurt to try.

 

That is just it. The world does not centre around you or me or any one person for that matter. No one except you cares if you leave the hobby or not. No one except me cares if I leave the hobby or not. We all make choices we are comfortable with on a personal level in this hobby, and if we cannot find our personal comfort zones we leave. If you feel strongly about paying half upfront then feel free to do so, but keep in mind companies will sell how they want to sell if the customers are buying their dolls, particularly established companies with loyal fan-bases. The companies have proven themselves already. New customers have not. Lati is a good example here. They do take a long time to deliver dolls, but it is because the demand is so high. The alternative is to not have the chance to buy them at all if they were to offer small limitations. To top it off, the good companies tend to build up a very loyal fan-base of repeat customers, and they understand and have already accepted the established system.

One does not need to buy Volks to avoid systems like Lati, but it was only an example. Soom offers layaway. Iplehouse also offers layaway. Leekeworld offers layaway. One does not need to pay all at once if one is concerned about the wait time. Unfortunately, I am out of the loop with the smaller companies, but if your argument is "those big companies no longer need the capital like they did before" that does not explain wanting smaller companies to take a risk on making a doll they may or may not have the capital to cover up-front. There are also likely to be companies that do not have a lot of extra cash and make things to order because they are still growing. For companies to grow and expand they need capital.

I appreciate that from yours and others perspectives that it seems more fair to put half up-front, and I do think there are those companies that will oblige if they want to build a fan base and have the necessary capital. That said, it is important to understand that the "art" for some companies is much more important than the customer service. They do not care if you like their dolls because they already have thousands of others who love their dolls. They feel their dolls are worth waiting for. If you do not, then do not buy them. Money talks, both in the spending of it and the refusal to do so. This hobby is all about personal choice.

 

(I'm in the strange position of being both a customer and a representative and haven't quite gotten used to it yet... so bare with me if this post is confusing)

I agree - partly - with you, except for two major points:

1. You automatically assume that these companies take their customers for granted and perhaps even enjoy their 'power'. This just doesn't sit well with me, because our small businesses rely completely on you (and me): the customers. If these companies were so arrogant, they would be biting their own noses off. An angry customer means a bad rep. A reputation too bad and you can close shop in this tiny hobby.

Even though we (customers) would like to, we aren't kings. Not everything we'd want is something the seller has to offer or to accept. We give money in return for a service, it doesn't give us the power or right to dictate how a shop should be run. If don't like how we're treated, we could just walk away.

2. You acknowledge that many of these companies with a 'pay first'-policy started out as small businesses with no funds whatsoever. You understand that these policies were necessary and even agree with them (if I read your post right). But then your next complaint completely contradicts that. You say those of use who like more unusual dolls are being punished for our personal taste, because we are forced to pay in full.

Most companies who offer unusual dolls are very small businesses with a small customer base. Their dolls are unique, but not very marketable (I'm looking at my own shop as well). As a result, they haven't had the chance to build up a capital and they are still in the starting phase of their business.

You either give a company a chance to grow and agree that a full payment upfront is part of this, or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

 

If there was an over production of standard dolls then wouldn't there be a possibility of them yellowing whilst they waited to be sold? Then there could be quality control issues on the white/pink skinned dolls.