Only allowing yourself to buy "cheaper" dolls?

Yes, that's exactly what my point was. I think we have crossed wires here somewhere.

Depends. Do you think ANY doll is not worth your money? That was what Damson's post was claiming, so that's what I'm basing the argument on.... ANY doll, even the cheap ones, not just the good Captain.

If somebody doesn't think that any doll is worth as much money as it costs-- in a hobby where $200 is considered cheap-- then they need to find a cheaper hobby. Overall. It's rather like joining an auto-racing club, then complaining that everybody around you drives too fast.

 

Okay, I think I get what you're saying here. It's the case of "if you're going to complain about this hobby being too expensive and therefore buying cheaper dolls, then maybe you should reconsider what you want from this hobby anyway". In relation to the fact that I think even if you have cheaper dolls, it's going to be a pricey hobby no matter what you do.

I do believe everyone wants different things from this hobby, from the people trying to mimmick original characters, to the collectors, to the fans trying to recreate their favorite non-original characters or whatever you want. It's still going to be pricey. Granted, for me, this doesn't mean these people shouldn't be in hobby, and they're perfectly able to like whatever dolls they want, it's just the price tag isn't going to go away in the end. A couple hundred dollars or a thousand dollars, it's still an investment.

 

I don't want to seem rude and all of a sudden just pop in and comment. I feel everyone is entitled
to their own opinions, preferences ideologies, views on the matter and what is okay for an individual do,
and not to do with its money. There is also the fact that text is limited in many ways, what is easily read
as naive to some, might be just as well seen as sarcastic cynicism to some others. But, I do feel it's not correct
to compare auto-racing to this hobby, because it is obvious what auto-racing is all about, to just about anyone.
You don't join in thinking you'll be riding your bike across the park, where as in this hobby people have different
reasons why they decide to "join." Some might pick this hobby because they love customizing, and the creativity
that comes with it (which is the reason why I chose it, already enjoying the world of 1/6th and garage kit-customizing).
Some others might choose this hobby because they enjoy collecting dolls, some others might join because they
enjoy knowing they are able to afford the most expensive dolls, who knows, there might be a million other reasons
whey people "join." I doubt all people come to this hobby knowing, or thinking that $200 will be considered cheap, or join
precisely because "$200" is "cheap."

I have to work a full day for that kind of money, I can say $200 is not cheap for me, whether it is the price of a doll, a vet visit,
or human clothes. I consider the relative value of things before buying, and their ultimate use, because I was raised a vegan,
splurging on "unnecessary" items is seen as a crime in my family (yes I have outdone myself, already owning three "cheap" dolls).
I can honestly say that $200 for a doll is a "reasonable" price, regardless of it's size. If people are able and willing to pay $3000
for a doll, a head, or a pair of eyes, good for them - I have to pay a little over that for a tuition every semester, so I cannot say
I will be willing or able to use that kind of money on a doll, even if I could.

- Enzyme ^____^

 

I've been waiting for someone to say this. Well said Tereya and good analogy JNem. Again it's not to say that someone doesn't belong in the hobby if they don't necessarily have or want to spend a lot of money on it. It's just having to expect that it is an expensive hobby if you are going to be involved. Where everyone draws the line of it being "worth it" or wanting it bad enough is a personal decision. Ones individual reasons for being in the hobby factor into whether they believe it to be practical or not.

(edit because I just now read it- Enzyme, I think is is a valid example. What I got from it is that you expect cars to be going fast in a race just as you can expect that bjd's are an expensive hobby. It's not necessarily what it's about but rather something that defines what it is.)

Exactly. No one wants to feel associated with the followers. They want to be taken seriously within the group. It's very clique oriented that way as with many social situations/communities. People, I've noticed, tend to have a desire to create an "us vs. them" situation so they feel like they belong. There cant be an 'us' without a 'them' so differences are magnified and people are categorized by things like what dolls they own, how they dress their dolls, etc. Like you say, no one wants to be categorized like that.

 

Okay. That attitude right there is what flies all over me. And it's not just the pornography analysis, I can tell you I'd feel just the same way if you'd used twinkies versus tofu. What makes you think you, and everyone else with a similar argument, has the right to wag your finger at people that own cheaper dolls? The message that comes across is 'just admit you have a shameful habit and everything will be okay.'

'Just admit you like porn for the boobs' 'just admit you like doll XYZ for the cheap?' And what everyone that owns one of those dolls has been yelling at the top of their lungs is that your analogy is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is. And I don't know what it will take to convince you, and people like you, of that fact.

How many more personal testimonials will you guys need before you stop flogging the horse?

 

Now I think I see why the furor: You have it utterly backward. "Just admit you have a shameful habit" is the OPPOSITE of the Jenna Jameson analogy. The only person who brought in the term "shameful habit" was you.

Coming to terms with something that you like, while you're aware that other people may dislike or look down on it, and standing up for your choice, whether it's popular or unpopular-- that was my point. And doing it honestly, and not making up an excuse just so that it sounds acceptable to the some other group.

You are mixing my arguments up with Kim's, I'm afraid. She doesn't actually believe those folks who say "I bought it because it's pretty" when they immediately follow this with "and it was so cheap". I personally don't CARE whether these people are telling the truth, and I don't care how much they paid for it, or why-- just make that doll look prettier before you show it to an audience. Cheap-looking dolls (regardless of actual price) is my main gripe.

Nobody's "wagging their finger" at anybody who owns cheaper dolls, just for owning them. Time & time again this has been made clear. Your persecution-complex is getting a wee bit scary.

OK, I see how you could have made that interpretation... the hobby's 'essential' is more obvious to you in auto-racing than dolls. But that's only because it's not your hobby. If you or someone close to you were in THAT hobby, you'd see that people join it for just as many reasons as people join dolldom. My dad's a racing man, and he and his cronies have a multitude of different joys they get out of their hobby, just like us with our dolls. The learning, the driving, the fixing, the gadgetry, the traveling to far-flung tracks with your friends, the shopping for arcane parts, the expo shows, the crash-stories, the adrenaline, the cameraderie, a basic lust for turbochargers, etc. etc. Still think it's a one-dimensional hobby?

I still maintain that, the way some dollfolks talk, it makes it sound like they want/expect the costs of the hobby to be brought down to their income level. Sure, we'd ALL like that, right? Be really nice, to spend $50 on an Isao, I would love that too. Not gonna happen, though. Sigh.

 

Darling, you're missing my point. I used the term 'shameful habit' because that's exactly what the implication is being made that it is. Even bringing porn and Jenna Jameson into the equation creates that impression.

There is no 'coming to terms'. Why should there be? What is there to come to terms with? THAT is my point. By saying we should 'come to terms honestly', you seem to think we've got something to admit. Or, perhaps more insultingly, that we're lying.

Actually, no. I was directly addressing what you had to say in your last post. And your last post, along with the great majority of the rest of your posts, had little to do with 'griping about cheap-looking dolls'. Are you changing your mind now?

And time and time again, what has become clear is that the people 'making that clear' are generally talking out both sides of their mouths. Nevermind the fact the condescension is seldom attractive on anyone.

Aww, what a cute little personal attack. Would you like a smiley?

 

I think if you genuinely like the less expensive doll,then go for it. But I agree with the person above who said it's a waste of money to only buy the cheaper doll JUST to have one.
Though, I do love to sew, and if I could find a REALLY cheap one just to use as a sort of dress form to make outfits for my friend's dolls (till I can afford my hound), then I think I probably would get it. But it'd have to be REALLY cheap if I was only using it for that

 

Well, for an analogy to be used to its full potential it should be fairly familiar to the audience it is intended for.
I don't believe everyone in this hobby has an auto-racing pilot as a father. Still, Auto racing is a hobby about
autos and racing, regardless's of what the hobbyists join that hobby for (as you suggest there are as many
and varied reasons and joys to join, that I will never know about, as there are in this hobby). In that aspect any other hobby
could replace auto-racing, but I don't believe there is any other hobby like this one out there. I am a gamer for example,
and could say it's just like gaming, and games, consoles are "expensive" so poor college 'kids' should play. Well I am in college
(not a kid, sadly) and I am poor, and heck I still am a hardcore gamer! Still, It would have nothing to do with Asian-ball jointed dolls,
because auto-racing is about auto-racing, gaming is about playing games...ABJD is about what?????

Customizing...? There are some people that don't customize or even remove their dolls from their box, but on
the other hand there are some that customize the heck out of theirs. Photographing...? There are some people who
don't even own a camera, yet own 10+ dolls, and some that are the opposite or somewhere in between. There are also
those who buy dolls because they feel pure and honest love for them, those who just buy them as luxury items,
vice-versa, and everywhere in between. To say that high-price is something that should be "expected," seems erroneous
to me, because the hobby itself has nothing to be expected in concrete, and is as diverse and varies from people to people,
as the people that join it, vary themselves. The only thing that seems to "join" ABJD as a hobby is that we all own doll(s) with
joints (no pun intended). So, then why should a price-value be expected?

I am not sure there are any 'folk' out there that expect dolls to be "brought down to their income level."
I truly don't expect that, nor hope for that to happen. Yes I am poor, very poor indeed, but I understand and view
all of these dolls as art, and art just as aesthetic-preferences varies, as does its value. To be brutally honest if an
Isao was to ever be priced as low as $50, I wouldn't buy it whether I had the $50 or not, simply because it is not in my aesthetic
preferences for the dolls that I would like to own. Same way I am sure there are people who are willing to pay an arm and an eye
for that sculpt, there are also those who are willing to pay just as much, or more for a portrait of themselves carved in mud, or for
something else, that has absolutely no value to another person. I don't like to judge anyone for their preferences, or actions they
take with their money or possession. People to me are free to do with their belongings as they wish (as long as they don't harm
any living being), I couldn't careless, if people want to pass judgement on others based on trivial things such as those, lucky them
and their spare time. I just don't know if it is "fair" to say that within this hobby, people should expect to pay a certain price, and
if they are not willing to, they should move on (the later point not necessarily expressed by you, but seems to be the norm within
the people who think there should be a 'price-value' to be expected).

- Enzyme ^____^

 

I know that I can't ever afford a more expensive doll, like any of the SD variety...and I therefore refuse to look into buying any of them. However, I am so completely inlove with the MSD's I want, that I don't mind not being able to afford the SDs, and have no problem restricting myself to just the smaller Dolls.

 

Ah, Echo I have a question for you. You say you can't afford an SD sized doll but want "MSD's" meaning more than 1. If you could afford 2 minis why not an SD sized one? So you can have more? Because you can't justify spending as much on just one doll? If so why is that? What if you found a smaller doll you loved that cost as much as an SD sized one?
I ask because I restricted myself to minis at first but am now in the midst of getting my first 1/3 scale doll. So what shapes your decision to do that?
As for myself, yea I figured I'd save money by only having one size of dolls. (Honestly only thought I'd have one at first, haha) But after calculating how much I spent on those minis in the last year came to the realization that it's a lot of money either way. Might as well go for the larger dolls I like as well. I do love my minis but ultimately (and rather recently might I add) decided to go after the dolls I like pretty much regardless of size/price/easy availability etc. Though I do still have limits and being hard to get can be a real turn off for wanting a doll as well.
So I'm interested now that I see someone else that is doing this. Please don't take this as prying I just think it would add something interesting to the discussion.

 

Yes, Nell, I had a lot of the same feelings as you. And Enzyme, your post was incredibly dead-on.

Originally, I was so indecisive. No matter how you look at it, anything in the $200 range and up is a rather large sum of money. I decided to restrict myself to one mini (who I ordered for price, but who I've grown to love and consider incredibly beautiful, strangely enough). Then, I amended that to one mini and one SD. Now, I'm making room for at least three SDs with another mini thrown in the mix.

In the end, I realized I simply couldn't replace the dolls I genuinely wanted with a different doll, regardless of price and mold, no matter how beautiful or limited. I'd rather have a more common SA Husky than a LE Latidoll Aida. That's simply how my tastes are, and though I've found I prefer SDs and more refined molds, that in no way detracts from my love for my first doll and more economically priced mini.

It's ridiculous for prices to detract from anything. What really determines the actual value of a thing? The price tag or how much the object is worth to the owner? Personally, I'd say the latter.

 

I think what the people who are against buying cheap doll are trying to say is that :

You don't HAVE to have a doll. It's a toy, it's a decoration, it's a thing. You buy it because you like it, yes. You don't buy it just because it makes you look more popular/rebellious/unique (me : heavens no. I agree. A bjd does not make the owner look unique).If you like it, then please, show that you CARE for it. Let it look good, even on a penny budget, you can make it look good! Just don't let us watch the poor things look so tossed around because it's already gone half past annoying! And it doesn't help that most of the dolls that look half tossed are the cheap dolls. If you want us to believe you're serious about this, show it! Take 15 seconds to clear your bed before you take your doll's photo. Take another 10 to make sure that his/her wig is straight. If you could be as so kind, do take another 5 to make sure his her stray hair is NOT distracting the audience. Your doll cant move. Your doll needs YOU to help them look beautiful. So please, take the time to do it right if you want us to seriously believe you chose them because they're "perfect".


And if anyone wants to say that people don't need other people's approval to enjoy their hobby, nor do they need to prove their doll's beauty to enjoy them, well... I have to say, you can't touch those who think otherwise.

this hobby is about costumization. this hobby is about aesthetic beauty. this hobby is about DOLLS. Dolls which are synonymous with beauty (if often artificial and by the hands of others) as often as it is synonymous with toy. When some people see someone not treating their doll well enough (not money wise. Ingenuity can overcome money anytime), it can really get to them. Myself included. It's like watching someone mishandling a child, to me.

One of the dolls I really like is a cheap doll. But time and time again, I've seen her look so bad, it tears my heart. I feel ashamed showing people some of the photos, wanting to show them "this is the doll that I want". I have seen how she looked as a limited (which is now unretraceable because the website fell through). I know how beautiful she can be. The fact that most of the terrible faceup on her was the company faceup these owners paid for made me all the more sad.

To me, this hobby is beauty hand in hand with fun. Of course it takes time for someone with meager income to transform a cheap looking doll into something looking more spectacular, but it's doable! If the owners of the cheaper price dolls take a little more consideration in the appearance of their dolls as did their luckier counterparts, we don't have to deal with this kind of classes as much.

True, there will still be people anti a certain company, but it wont be because they're tired of seeing "how horrible the company's dolls look".

 

agreed

you get people who post messy pictures of dolls often considered the 'cheaper' dolls putting them in a bad light

but to me i think people dont 'just want to see your doll' a messy quick picture isnt what its about. they want to see your doll looking NICE..

one thing i feel bad about in a wierd way is introducing my cousin to BJDs. my mum was just telling my aunty how i got one and wanted me to show her...now, this particular family is of 6 kids, loud, messy, fight alot and disrespectful to each others property. this partuclar cousin of mine, she's nice, and when i showed her BJDs on DODs site she thought they were wonderful and wanted one for her birthday. but she though £100 was expensive for one..and i got to thinking, if she does ever get one, i KNOW itll only be because its cheap. i know ill tell her how to paint them etc...but i also know, she wont do it right. i can see me saying 'dont use oils' and she will. things like that.

and it makes me really sad to think i might be putting some poor doll in that household...her brothers, well...if they got their hands on her, its just..ack. it wouldnt stand a chance. not to mention her make-up obsessed friends and what not...i know my cousin would try her best but really, it wouldnt work. and i think buying a doll purely because its cheap? well..maybe in her situation that'd be the best thing to do. then again, maybe she just doesnt suit this hobby

its not the ACTUAL cheap doll that bugs me. its some peopls reasons for getting them; using my cousin as an example again, she COULD afford a more expensive doll if she saved for a while, but she doesnt feel its worth it. therefore, id feel that she doesnt genuiely love HER doll, she'd love it because its A doll

..ill admit i did orginally want the cheaper dolls. but after i while id find myself staring at lishe, shall, afghan...and i thought, you know, THEYRE what i want, THEYRE worth it for me...so that was MY choice. im still getting my MSDs first because itd take twice as long to get my SDs, and i really want some company now ( XD ) but i dont have a problem with anyone doing that

anyway...yeh. if you love a mold, ANY mold, go for it. but...do take some time thinking what is REALLY worth it to you..im glad i didnt rush and get the cheaper dolls i orginally wanted *huggles coco* ^_^

 

Your cousin is a good example of "You don't HAVE to have a doll" case. If she wont even listen on how to take care of it (i.e. "Please, don't use Sharpie!!"), she's better off using that money on more makeup.

Another thing about buying cheaper dolls is that, some people would have a more careless feeling about them.

We all know 200USD isn't cheap. But after blinding our eyes with the 400-800USD prices? It's the scale of the price in relation to the other more expensive dolls that sticks in most of people's head.

Like what someone earlier mentioned. Some people MAY be able to buy antique rose eyes for their "cheaper" dolls, from the money they save by getting it, but honestly.... how many of us can do that? And I'm talking in terms of will power. (the example used earlier was actually faceup, but I'm looking for things that you NEED to buy)

Because the doll is cheaper, some owners has shown less consideration as to what they do to the doll, compared to what they may have done with a more expensive doll they like.

 

I quoted both because I read and reread Damson's post and I don't see where you're getting the 'ANY doll is not worth your money'. I can't claim to be able to read Damson's mind but what I'm reading from Damsun's post (and it seems to be rather straightforward) is that some people will feel that certain dolls are too far out of their financial range or beyond the acceptable amount they're willing to spend on one doll. I just don't see the 'any' part.

On that note, I have to say that I understand Damsun's take on this. I might like a doll very, very much, but let's face it. It's still a doll. Even if I could well afford it, I might be the type of person who believes there's a limit to how much I should spend on the one doll. It's like when you go shopping for clothes. There are people who'll buy anything for any price as long as they like it and there are people who will look at a dress they like but think, "It looks great, but $500 is my maximum so I won't get it."

While it's all well and good to set a target and get your 'dream doll', setting a limit shouldn't be a bad thing either. If you (general 'you' being used here) can afford to spend with limitless wallets, that's great. If you don't mind putting a large credit on your card to buy a doll, that's great. If you're comfortable financially and want to buy an expensive doll, that's great too. But it shouldn't be something bad if you want to limit your spending on an entertainment/art purchase either.

One more thing. People keep saying they dislike cheap dolls with bad face-ups/dressing/accessories, making them cheap-looking dolls. I scratch my head over this because I've seen bloody expensive dolls with crappy face-ups made to look like cheap-looking dolls. Crappy looking is crappy looking and I dislike it on any doll, cheap or expensive alike (though honestly, when I see a rare doll mutilated, my pang of pain rings a little bit louder). Why the emphasis of it over here in this thread, as if only cheaper dolls have bad face-ups?

 

Have you considered seeing if there are any 1/6th scale vinyl dolls, (Obitsu, Volks, Deleter) that she would like instead of a full resin BJD? Or perhaps the Goodreau dolls (which are offtopic for the board, so I won't elaborate beyond saying they're cheaper American BJDs available in vinyl) if she's looking for a BJD that is more 'plaything' oriented.

ETA: And I think the perception that cheaper dolls are more likely to have cheap face-ups... is at least partially true. Enoughso that people have gotten the impression that things are that way. When someone has an extreme limited Volks with a bad face-up, people are likely to think "I wonder if that person knows they don't have any face-up skills but thinks they do." When someone has an AoD or Dollzone with a cheap face-up, they think "That person bought a cheap doll because it was cheap, and thus couldn't be bothered to pay for a decent face-up for it."

May not be TRUE, but that doesn't mean it isn't how people see the situation.

 

Really, I don't think it's anyone else's business who buys what doll for how much money. Everyone seems to care about how they're percieved by other people in the fandom, which, while understandable, is also pretty unhealthy.

I've been a doll owner for 3 years, which isn't a long time, I suppose, but I've seen a lot of dolls, expensive and inexpensive (in relative terms). I've seen rare, expensive dolls with faceups that look completely awful, and I've seen inexpensive dolls with beautiful faceups. I can honestly say I don't like /most/ of the faceups I see on other dolls. I would never want one of my dolls to look like that.

HOWEVER, I appreciate that people's tastes vary. If it's their doll, it's their doll, and I hope it brings them happiness.

Unfortunately, it seems like the opinions of others in the fandom (I miss the days I could say 'community') take away from those feelings of happiness more often than not. People second guess what they think they like and what they think they don't. Nobody wants to buy something they like and then be ostracized because of it. That's just sad, and exceptionally juvenile.

Overall, I don't think it's anyone's business to judge anyone's reason for buying a doll, regardless of availability or cost. It isn't even worth being bothered over-- why let the actions of others make you unhappy?

Really... this hobby? It's not supposed to be as serious as a lot of people are making it out to be >_>; Relax more. It's good for the heart.

 

Notes from a newbie:

Let's face it, these are expensive dolls, even the cheap ones. Cheap can also mean getting dolls without hair, eyes and a face-up. And remember, cheap doesn't always mean cheaply made.
I went to a BJD convention before I really got invested and saw many of the dolls in person. That is really helpful. Some people are such good artists and sewers that, in their hands, any doll can be wonderful.
My first rule is, buy what you love and can afford.

 

A voice of reason! Remember boys & girls, this is only a hobby & is only a small sector of an even larger hobby, doll collecting in general or even simply collecting anything at all. To take it out of that context is to make it into something it's really not, whether you see it as a lifestyle, a rebellion or an exclusive little club. And I think that's where a lot of the problems in a debate like this come in.

Any hobby can be relatively cheap or outrageously expensive. The person who knits can be someone who only can afford the synthetic yarns on sale at Walmart or the one who only purchases the finest custom dyed wools & cashmeres from a speciality yarn shop. Either one can make something beautiful out of what they work with & enjoy both the finished product as well as the creating of it equally. And if neither's object measures up to what someone else arbitrally decides is "beautiful", does that make it any less worthwhile to the owner/creator? They enjoyed the act of making it & that's all that's neccesary.

The old adage that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder is something we all would do good to remember here. Can inexpensive dolls be beautiful? Yes, even if it's so only to their owner. Can the pricey ones be hideous? Well, who's the aesthetic police here? I've seen many, many expensive dolls that I find awful & even some that are offensive to my sensibilities, but, the key here is that in MY taste they are found so. The owner/creator may find them wonderful & the fulfillment of their artistic desires. Are any of us really so perfected that we're in the position to judge? Remember a little guy named Van Gogh? His work was deemed hideous by the standards of his time & now we recognise him as a genius.

I'm afraid this community has become far too judgemental in their opinions of others. If someone prefers less expensive dolls, who among us has the right to condem them? If their dolls don't fit into an aesthetic that we personally find appealing, we don't need to look at them. No one is forcing you to click on the gallery links. And if you're someone who worries about a doll being destroyed or ignored, well take some time to get a real perspective on life. No matter how personally you take it, at the end of the day it's really ONLY a doll, not a living being.

A hobby is meant to be fun, something to take us away from everyday stresses, not something to get angry about or to judge another's reason for wanting to participate. There's room for everyone here, regardless of whether they're an old timer collecting limited editions or a newbie who's just following a fun trend the least expensive way they can.