Only allowing yourself to buy "cheaper" dolls?

JennyNemesis: I agree with your estute summary of this argument, but I have a bit to add, and counter.

I posted four pages ago, said my peace shortly and sweetly about a topic I actually was interested in. When I came back, I found the thread was wandering off topic, opinions were getting heated, as they often do in any of these discussion threads.

I also discovered, as in many threads, that suddenly this thread had come down to SEVERAL (I don't need to name names, but I could point them out it you don't feel like reading throught the thread to find them yourself) expressions of how 'unattractive' Dollzone dolls are. Yes, everyone has different aesthetics, but no company wan named more frequently then DZ.
It seems that ANY debate, if left to run long enough, will show blatant pro- and anti- DZ sentiment. Is this going to be eternally divided?

If this thread is about "only allowing yourself to buy 'cheaper' dolls?", how did this become a discussion on aesthetics? Should it not pertain more to monetary concerns, as well as the truths about the pros and cons of the various companies?

And a certain very active member stated in this thread that people should not be admonished for expressing their opinions. Howver, in a debate, if I am correct, is not opinion looked down upon in favor of fact? Thus, testimonials have far more right to be here that any preference of company or mold strictly based on personal aesthetics.

 

Like many DoAers here, I am a college student. I work for very little pay in a fast-food establishment. And still, I think it's a bit of a shame many people buy a cheaper doll just because it's affordable and they can. I am not talking about those who buy cheaper dolls because they were the first on their wish list, I mean those who buy them because they realize they are settling for less than what they really want.

These are just my own observations, but those who buy on a budget seem to do so mainly for two reasons:

a) They cannot justify spending X amount on something that is so admittedly frivolous, whether it be a doll or other money-sucking hobby. These are people that have always been frugal, or are forced into making economically-sound choices through circumstance. If their desired doll is out of reach financially, they will choose the next best option; it is still a doll they love, yet easier on the pocketbook. It might not be their dream doll, but they are both satisfied with the doll and with the money they have spent.

b) They cannot initially justify spending X amount on a single doll, so instead use the money to buy several cheaper dolls. These are people who I admittedly categorize as being merely just impatient. They have the economic means to buy the doll they really want, but it would take perhaps several months of saving. Rather than wait it out, they choose instant gratification, and end up with many dolls in a very short time frame. They might genuinely like their dolls, though would perhaps been more satisfied had they budgeted their time and money and bought the ones that were really on their wish list.

I try not to judge anyone, but I find it inevitable for me to stereotype a bit - one of my many flaws. There is nothing wrong with buying less-expensive dolls; your money is completely your own to do with what you wish. And I can definitely understand setting a limit on the amount you will spend on dolls - that's good money management.

Just personally, I find those who fall into the second group harder to take seriously as BJD hobbyists. I view dolls as a lifelong interest, and find no reason to rush buying them, especially if I would not be as happy with a cheaper counterpart. However, I realize we're all different and coming from different backgrounds with different experiences.

As for all the hurt feelings: I don't despise anyone or think less of them for the dolls they own, whether they bought them out of initial love, because they are on a budget, or in order to get more bang for their buck. I might not agree with their choice of doll or their reason for buying (this goes for the pricier dolls too!), but everyone's tastes and situations are different, and I try my utmost to respect that.

 

I'm afraid you misunderstood what I was getting at, but that's my fault -- I wrote that post first thing after waking up, while rushing out the door. xD;;

And I'm certainly not trying to give anyone hugs, here. xD Sorry if it comes across that way.

To clarify what I meant:

1.) If you hate cheap dolls and think they're the downfall of the hobby, then good for you. That's nice.

2.) If you think all people who hate cheap dolls are elistists, then good for you. That's nice.

3.) If you're buying a cheap doll for whatever reason (even if it IS just to join the "cool kids' club"), then good for you.

I guess it boils down to that I really don't HAVE a strong opinion either way. People will do and buy what they want in the end, and it's not going to be the end of the world, or the hobby for that matter.

So as long as everyone "keeps their hands to themselves", I don't think this should even be a big issue.

Lastly, I wasn't implying that anyone was an ass, far from it! D: I simply meant to say that if you make a big fuss over something like this in public, then you'll look like one. That wasn't directed to anyone in this thread at all, and I apologize for my lack of clarity (and in retrospect, off-topicness D: )

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb, here, and say that it's because aesthetics are always a major component of a decision to buy a doll, and go hand in hand with price when a person weighs their options.

The OP does mention aesthetics -- though she doesn't use that precise term -- when she says, "I'm not talking about getting a doll just because it's cheaper, but getting a cheaper one you like, as opposed to an expensive one that you love." What makes you like or love a doll, if not aesthetics?

Saying that this question has nothing to do with aesthetics and personal preferences is absurd, in my opinion. No one says to themselves, "I don't care at all what a doll looks like as long as it's less than $200, so I'll just click blindly on the web site to pick one."

 

I'm not saying to ignore aesthetics completely, I was referring to my prior paragraph about people stating their opinions about entire companies, without it being particularly relevant to the topic.

Yes, we assume that everyone buys the dolls they think are attractive, to do otherwise would be self-defeating.

I made the assumption that whoever read my post would realize that I was elaborating on a point I had just made. I hope I have clarified that for anyone who missed the coherency of my thought.

 

people shouldn't encourage me...!
now you all get to see what happens when an unemployed and slightly compulsive ex-student turns her hand to the internet: a literature review, as it were, of the thread.
I feel compelled to offer the disclaimer that these results are hardly worthy of publication in a peer-reviewed journal; not only is my catalogue fallible, but my analysis is fairly subjective (e.g. I sometimes had to guess what people were trying to say and fit it into one of my subjective categories). however, I feel that the results were strongly weighted enough to still be meaningful.

so what did I find?


I counted 96 individual posters.

of those 96, only 5 fell into any category that disapproved of cheap dolls. 2 thought cheap dolls might be okay but preferred expensive ones themselves; 2 explicitly disapproved of those who buy cheap dolls for financial reasons; 1 explicitly disapproved of those whose entire collections are cheap.

43 people thought it was acceptable to buy a cheap doll, whether for financial reasons or for love. I didn't keep track of the number, but my sense was that the majority of these thought love was the more respectable reason although both were okay.

42 people thought love was a good reason to buy a cheap doll.

7 people thought it was okay to buy a cheap doll and only mentioned financial reasons.

7 people agreed that they dislike seeing dolls with a cheap "look," regardless of the price of the doll itself.

14 people described what I called "status dolls" (including dolls owned for the express purpose of feeling more a part of this community) in a poor light.



a couple of people have brought up the "youngsters and BJDs" thread and suggested that this one is similar in that many people are disapproving of a certain segment, saying certain types of hobbyists are degrading the hobby, and making negative blanket statements. I have not analyzed that thread (nor am I likely to!), but my subjective sense was that it was characterized to a limited extent by such behaviour, whereas this thread is far more distinctly characterized by people talking about unmeasurable people who supposedly behaved that way. I present the following statistics to support my argument:

only 5 people even mentioned elitism or reverse elitism--and that includes the people who said "I own expensive dolls, and I'm afraid that people with cheap dolls think I'm an elitist."

only 2 people said that standards were declining in the hobby, and those two disagreed as to the reason.






here's the tl;dr version:

although a very few people have admitted to disapproving of cheap dolls, the vast majority of posters believe that they are acceptable in some or all cases. although general statements have been made, most of them have been made by people who believe--like the majority of people who have complained about lack of acceptance--that cheap dolls are okay. it is my firm belief that anyone who has ever felt second-class because of their dolls can confidently feel first class, since the proportions against cheap dolls actually appear to be comparable to, if not smaller than, the proportions of hobbyists who do not like any specific sculpt.

 

Ukelala, No clarification is required. I understood your post just fine.

I think where we disagree is that I feel the comments about aesthetics given in this thread are directly relevant to the issue at hand, while you feel that the opinions have been given "without it being particularly relevant to the topic." My post, as poorly worded as it was, was meant to refute that implication.

The fact that opinions have been given about a specific company's aesthetic style doesn't automatically make those opinions irrelevant. Everyone in this thread has the same freedom to bring up specific companies. In addition to DZ, Volks and Luts have already been brought up in the context of aesthetic discussion. If DZ has been brought up more often, it's simply because more people have strong feelings about their aesthetics. That's all there is to it.

I'm sorry that you feel the negative opinions about DZ's aesthetics are irrelevant, but at the end of the day, I feel that they are no different than any other opinion stated in this thread. Just because you don't like the opinions doesn't mean they don't matter in the discussion at hand.

One other note I meant to address before and forgot. You said, "Howver, in a debate, if I am correct, is not opinion looked down upon in favor of fact? Thus, testimonials have far more right to be here that any preference of company or mold strictly based on personal aesthetics."

I counter that debate is always about opinions. Facts are used to back up the opinions as much as possible in order to provide firm ground upon which the debater can stand, but at the end of the day, what they are using the facts to argue is their opinion. Moreover, testimonials are as steeped in opinion as statements of personal aesthetics are, so I'm not sure why they would have "far more right to be here."

Edit: Thank you, Salamader! It seems that "cheap" dolls are not being bashed as harshly as some people seem to assume.

 

As you're referring to me, I'll respond. This is not a debate, it's a discussion. Questions that ask "how do you feel" are not really debatable, only discussable. And were this a real debate, it would be unwise to be tossing out personal experiences because they're a dangerous tool to give an opponent because they can be used to establish bias, lack of experience, etc., to invalidate your argument.

I wish we always had someone like you to give summations like this. That breakdown is really interesting, and also shows how a few loud opinions (or particularly strongly worded opinions) can make the whole argument seem skewed one way or another.

 

armelia: I did not intend for you to view this as a personal attack, various posts are about denying people's opinions.

This forum is entitled "Dolly Debate"... perhaps it should be retitled "Dolly Discussion" as so not to be misleading? (ot, sorry.)
OP quote:

You are right about the original question being a 'how do you feel' question. I wish, however, that so many other people would be as thorough as you in reading this, though, because the sentence immediately after that negates any of the posts suggesting people buying dolls as a 'placeholder' or 'starter' doll while earning money for an expensive one, as these are apparently not views on which the thread starter had any interest in discussing.

 

^^' oh mercy. Our hobby where a $200 doll is "cheap"... lol

 

Lizzard, there are many opinions which I do not like. I am not a particularly sensitive person,and it does not matter to me how people feel so much as the manner in which they express it. There are ways to approach a subject without offending or alienating the other side.

I am not interested in splitting hairs, nor do I wish to send this already wandering thread down an OT road that does not need travelled. Take my words for what you will. Truthfully, I don't much care for debate threads, and have been reminded as to why.


*excuses herself from the thread*

 

When you said "a certain active poster," it implied a singular person to whom you were anonymously speaking. As I was the most recent person who said that people should be able to have an unpopular opinion, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you were speaking to me. In any case, I did not feel personally attacked; I'm just enjoying the discussion, I'm not really emotionally invested in it.

It's not really realistic to expect that an active forum of thousand is going to stick to the narrow focus of one specific situation just because that's the only thing that the OP wants to hear about. It's also part of a bigger issue that's going to tint every response... and conversation, by nature, does wander. It would be sort of like someone saying "Hey, tell me if you have a lot of crime in your hometown. But I don't really want to hear about the size of your city, the economic conditions, or the types of crimes being committed. Just tell me if there's a lot!"

There have been also been a lot of sparks for other really interesting threads to start... like "Why is it more acceptable to bash popular companies?", "What stereotypes have you encountered about the types of dolls you own?", "Do you find major aesthetic differences between dolls produced in different countries?" Lots of good stuff.

 

Every time I want to buy a new doll, I look at the price. I waffle back and forth over it, check the balance in my bank account and on my credit card, plan out what I will do with that doll, and then decide if it is worth it.

But, none the less, 10 of my 13 dolls are limiteds, and all of them were upwards of $500. The price of a doll does not affect my decision; whether I can justify the price by making the doll something beautiful that I will love does.

To use a now-unpopular example, when I first got into this hobby I absolutely hated Volks dolls. I thought most of them were ugly (and still do think some of them are, that tiny, lipless mouth really kills me), and refused to look at them. The first one I ever liked was a Kun that was made to be undead. She didn't look dead at all to me, but she was gorgeous. Now I've ordered an SD13 Cristal, and I'm still lusting after a BW F22.

On another unpopular note, I used to hate Dollzones. The upper lip still drives me nuts, but now that I've seen a few people present some very attractive and well-dressed Dollzones, and spoken to one owner about them, I want a Megi and maybe a Feilian. I mean, what's sandpaper for? I can fix that upper lip, just like I fixed my Juri 06's lips.

I want an AOD Rao, and maybe one of their tinies. Yes, the company faceups look horrid, but that's nothing I can't fix or pay someone to fix.

Just because someone owns a ton of expensive, limited dolls doesn't mean someone who owns a bunch of less expensive dolls should be afraid to talk to them. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am certainly not going to prosecute someone for their choice of doll. One should not have to fear speaking to a Volks owner and possibly making a new friend because they own an AOD and a DZ instead of five WooSoos, a Reisner, and an Amelia.

 

This is awesome! Thanks for the breakdown!

I am surprised that more people didn't offer the "only go for the doll you absolutely love or you will be disappointed" stand. I see that advise given so often to newbies trying to decide on their first doll (I am sure with good reason, many people have had that experience), but I did exactly what the OP posed... limited my budget and purchased the less expensive doll that I liked vs. the one I loved, and was perfectly happy with the decision.

Of course it depends on why you are acquiring dolls and how you play (or don't play) with them, but someone could have a lovely doll family while limiting their budget to the lower end of the price scale. There are so many companies that offer less expensive dolls (and not just Chinese companies... Orient doll, and Angel Region and Soom still offer unfinished kit sales every so often).

As has been said, it isn't so much the doll you have as much as what you do with it and how you care for it (at least according to 91 of the 96 individual posters in this thread.)

 

A couple of those sound like really good jumping-off points for new debates. Might be worth actually making myself do something constructive and writing up a starter.

My two cents' worth: I'm on the fence about the whole topic. It depends on motivation, more than anything else; why are you 'restricting' yourself to the more economical choices on the market? (I despise the term 'cheaper'. The retail salesperson in me prefers 'economical' to 'cheaper' or 'less expensive'.) There are a myriad of reasons why a person would do so, and I think the vast majority of them are all equally valid.

My first doll, I will freely admit, was influenced greatly by the price tag attached to him. Was that the only factor? No, not so much. I knew I wanted my first to be a) a mini and b) not something that would break my bank to the point where I would feel horrendously guilty every time I looked at him. I didn't know if this was a hobby I was going to be interested in sticking with for an extended period of time, and in my eyes spending $700 on a doll I might not be interested in within six months' time seemed a bit...excessive. As luck would have it, a friend of mine put one of her boys up for sale right when I'd collected the funds to purchase my first doll. I was very happy to rehome a doll whose previous owner I knew quite well. Was it the sculpt I'd first been eyeing? No. But on seeing pictures of him, something about -that- doll with -that- face sold me completely. I've since purchased my 'dream doll' -- the mold I really, really, REALLY wanted. I don't love my first boy any less for that. In fact, he's become my 'guinea pig' doll; I love switching him around and playing with new looks for him. It's fun.

It all boils down to motivations and attitudes, I think. I'm all for enjoying the hobby on a budget. I'm also all for maximizing whatever budget you DO have, though; you might not have the funds to put BtSSB or Zouks on your doll, but if you look hard enough (or have sewing skills, which I will be the first to admit I COMPLETELY lack) you can probably find nicely-made clothing, pretty eyes, and nice wigs for a lot less money, and your doll will look pulled-together and complete. There's nothing wrong with partaking of the hobby on a more economical scale, and nobody should be ashamed of it or feel they need to justify it to the community. We're all here to have a good time.

EDIT: Damn you, PG, you went and put up Good Things while I was still typing. Agreed on one big point; when I first started looking at these dolls, I did NOT like Volks. There was something about the way the faces were shaped that did nothing for me, aesthetically. However, the first dolls I ever actually got to hold were Volks dolls (a Hewitt and an Isao, if I remember correctly, though I don't recall for beans which versions they were). Papi tempts me, badly. Ridiculously badly. I keep having to remind myself to stick to my current plans. Flipside of that is I also don't like most DZs...but after owning one, messing around with him to my heart's content, and having seen a number of others in person, I can say that most pictures don't do them a bit of justice and they have a certain charm that's all their own. It isn't to everyone's aesthetic tastes, but then again, nothing will be. It's odd; I've had the only DZ at most of the meets I've gone to, and have come away with nothing but good comments. Proof positive of what armeleia said, I guess, that a few strongly-worded opinions can give the impression that the community opinion is skewed much further one way or another than is actually the case.

I probably won't ever own a real 'limited' doll, purely because most limited sculpts haven't ever really appealed to me. The only one so far that I've really liked after seeing owner pictures of him is Woosoo, and I'm not going to pay current market price for him. It isn't an issue of 'restricting' myself; it's that if I did, I would a) not be able to pay my bills for a good six months and b) would be looking at him every day going 'that's a lot of money, if I sold him I could pay off so much stuff'. If I buy a doll, I want to be able to look at the doll and see him and love him, not see a giant price tag attached to his neck.

TL;DR: There's nothing wrong with restricting your doll budget, as long as you can justify it and feel good about the end result.

 

All riiight! Wow! Cake for the salamander! Thanks so much for slogging through all that blood 'n' tears. Somehow, I kinda knew that you weren't making an idle threat, & just needed a little Enabling. ^^

My previous reaction about the wanderings of this thread were probably out of hairtrigger frustration; a thread will naturally meander a bit as it evolves. And should. (Armeleia just made a terrifically apt analogy about wanting to learn about crime-rates in a city, without wanting to learn anything about the collateral conditions.)

The "aesthetics" issue wasn't specifically tagged too hard in the OP, but it really got cooking around page 2, when people first started to bring it up. Pages 2-3 is also where the stratification & fighting started to germinate too, one can't help noticing. But whenever opinion-sensitive issues like money or aesthetics are involved, there is bound to be drastic disagreement. It's our ability to articulate & navigate such differences in opinion that separate us from the apes and lolkidz of this world, and allow an intelligent discussion (or quasi-debate) to evolve from it.

I do offer that advice to newbies, and am firmly in that camp myself ("only go for True Love")-- however, I totally grok that not everybody operates like that. Some people prefer the "carpetbombing" method of shopping: buy everything they like when they see it, & then if they can't bond, sell it off. This is perfectly valid. Some people are picky: only settle on the exact dream doll they have, accepting no substitutes, no matter the cost. That's valid too. Some people want to "get their feet wet" first: buy the cheaper doll that's an analogue of the pricey dream doll, then either upgrade later, or decide that you're already perfectly in love with the cheaper one. This is just as valid.

And besides, I also understand that one's best intentions can often turn a complete 180 in the face of reality: You may buy something cheap intending it to be temporary, and then fall in love with it. Like my $20 Radio Shack answering machine. Everyone makes fun of me having it instead of voicemail, but it serves my needs, and doesn't cost anything per month, so I laugh my friends' criticism off. ^^

Love, and contentment, both strike in the damnedest ways.

 

Being new I started looking to go with a cheeper model which I think is perfectly fine and found a few I liked. Then I stubled onto the doll that I am currently saving for. He is still on the cheaper end but $200 more then the first dolls that I almost bought. If he hadn't shown up I would have gone with the one that I liked that was much cheeper but I don't think anyone should settle for any doll just because it's cheeper. These are expensive and you need to make sure you find the doll that will work perfectly for you!

 

There is nothing wrong with buying a doll for what ever reason you want to buy a doll. To be honest I was not going to buy a pricey doll, I was going to get a cheaper one to see if I actually enjoyed the hobby, before I went whole hog and bought a big REALLY pricey doll... Then LUTs spoiled my plans with the release of Sr. Delf girls and I went whole hog and ordered one. My thought...its your money, spend it how you want too.

 

to be honest, I was already about halfway through, just out of my own bloodyminded need to prove myself right.
*eats cake with glee*

I think the apparent lack of this position may be a combination of my measurement methods and the fact that this is a general thread. so if you're looking at my numbers and seeing that many people said both financial reasons and love for the sculpt are okay, you should bear in mind that many people were actually saying "go ahead and buy the cheaper one, but make sure you really love it." that is, they were willing to make a concession--especially since we're dealing with generalities here--but I expect that if you started a thread saying "I can't decide whether to get AoD Chen or the MNF El Special that made me want to join this hobby" I think most of them would say "go with the one you love."

also, a few people specifically mentioned that they felt it was just fine, if there are two dolls you really like or love, to buy the cheaper one first--especially if you're new to the hobby.

while I may lean towards Kim's position and question those who say price had nothing to do with their purchase of a lower-priced doll, I have certainly seen enough stories like this to believe it happens all the time. so I guess I can comfortably say that I support people buying the dolls they buy for the reasons they buy them, because most people end up happy about it in the end. *cue sappy music*

 

Sorry, Tez. :p I didn't meant to beat you to the punch.

Really, even the dolls I now think are absolutely gorgeous were alien and strange to me at first. I don't know many people in this hobby that weren't at least a little weirded out by them.

As far as I'm concerned, this entire hobby is an acquired taste, not just the less expensive dolls. People are just more touchy about these less expensive dolls because they haven't been around as long, not as many people own them, and so there aren't as many really good owner pictures. Eventually, they'll get just as much attention as everyone else. DollZone has had some trouble getting on their feet because of that whole Woori thing, but now they're starting to gain some rabid fans.

I don't see why the term "elitist" is reserved only for Volks owners, though. I never hear "CP elitist," or "Elfdoll elitist." I think a lot of people have a sort of vendetta against people who own nothing but Volks dolls, purely because they do tend to be a little bit more expensive due to having more limiteds than standards.

I really wish that everyone would accept that the price of a doll is almost entirely irrelevant to the love someone might feel for it, and spending $1000 plus on a gorgeous limited does not mean you get to sit at the cool kids table. Even the most beautiful, expensive limited can be utterly destroyed by someone who dresses it cheaply or mods it without knowing what they're doing, and we've all seen it happen.