Paypal fees discussion

This only applies if you are running an actual business.
If you are just garage selling stuff like most people do here in the Marketplace or on eBay, you can't deduct the fees on your taxes.

 

There isn't one; the retail rate is not universal. Each company or person sets their own rate.

 

oh i see, thats a shame i guess i will have to approximate from now on. thanks anyway

 

I'd never tack on fees to someone. Also I won't buy anything with fees included. It's so.. not right in my opinion.
Also I'm kinda paranoid that the person doesn't really.. uh, have a business account and are just getting a tad bit extra out of me. [can you even tell what type of account they have? ^^' I don't know]

 

I try to include them in when I sell. I have a business account, have to have it when you sell on ebay, and no matter how I get paid through paypal, be it a CC or balance, I get hit with fees.

 

I always try to include in the price in away that it's fair from both ends. If you are selling through ebay then you have to pay lots... it's ridiculous. You pay ebay, then paypal.... u_u;

I don't buy from sellers who charge fees. I really can't be bothered to work out the fees to see if the price of whatever i'm brying is fair. To me that's seller's responsability and if they can't be arsed to calculate it the neither can I

 

I think it is weird if people charge their paypalfees on the buyer.
it will just hold people back, expecially when it is a more expensive item.
everytime I sell something, I pay the fees myself..
at all it is just a little bit...

 

Savvy buyers won't pay for obvious markups (added fees) when they can get it cheaper elsewhere. What the market will bare, right? But agree about group orders should split fees incurred.

 

I am very put off when someone wants me as a buyer to pay their fees. I understand why they ask though, a doll is a lot of money and hence their fees will be high, but I just don't agree with it. I never ask fees, on EBay or here. In my opinion, Paypal is a convinience for ME, it means I can be paid quickly from anyone all over the world, accept credit cards, or just balance payments. I wouldn't be able to do that without Paypal. I wouldn't probably sell half the things I want to if it wasn't for Paypal (try getting £400 for a doll at a bootsale! yeah right!).

To me, Paypal is really handy and therefore the charges are mine and not the buyers.

 

I would like to emphasize the point that Rynn made and use the fact that she said she has a business account as a jumping point for my own thoughts.

Here's the fee schedule for PayPal:

PayPal Fees

And here's what I personally think about the PayPal fees:

As a seller and person who does freelance work, I normally absorb all the fees when/if a client pays me through PayPal. I'm doing my freelance business partly to support myself and so it's safe to say that I am (hopefully) profiting from it. PayPal is a luxury item for me in that I can receive instant secure payments for my work without waiting for checks or money orders to clear.

All the sales that I have done on DoA in the past were non-profiting meaning that I was selling simply to recover the amount(s) that I originally paid (minus overseas shipping) and where I've absorbed the fees associated in those transactions, I can see the point that other people make about not wanting to absorb the losses made on such sales.

Because there's no profit being made, right? It's a direct even exchange that can be likened to one person trading a pair of black jeans worth $30 for a pair of white jeans of the same make and style that's also worth $30. Additionally, a lot of sellers sell some brand new items at a loss to begin with simply to clear out space or a need for a quick sale. In such cases where the seller is asking for the exact same amount (or less) than the item's 'worth', the fee amount doesn't come out of the profits, but comes at an actual loss. Not only did the person possibly sell the item for cheaper than what it was worth, but they also got some change dinged out of it, too.

In the world of iron outside of DoA, PayPal aside, the ability to receive CC payments is limited to businesses - from the big ole corps to the small home grown ones - and... businesses. Accepting CC payments is a big deal for most smaller businesses and individuals because like in PayPal, there's a nice old fee attached to each transaction made and this isn't including the potential monthly or yearly fees associated with being able to accept CC payments in general. But these are BUSINESS people who are getting dinged with fees. I repeat: People and businesses get dinged with CC fees because they are EXPECTED to be making some profit and are therefore paying for their profit by paying for a service that has helped them increase their profit by increasing convenience for both the buyer and the seller.

Thus, when I follow this thought, selling pre-owned clothes, wigs, and even dolls that don't fit into a doll family aren't considered businesses in my eyes as long as profit isn't involved in the transactions.

Before the major accessibility of accepting CC cards payments, places like yard sales and garage sales and flea markets were cash-only places. People are looking to clean out garages and attics and collections and other people are looking to acquire items. People make money from garage sales, but the original cost of a lot of the items like bicycles are usually a lot more or the same as the selling price at the garage sale and people doing garage sales take a loss for selling their items at a cheaper price or at most, break even if they're lucky.

I see Marketplace threads selling gently used or almost new or new doll items to be like garage sales in a way. Profit isn't the main driving factor in a lot of these cases I don't think; it's the idea to recoup as much of the original cost as possible. And since the sellers are more than likely already taking a loss by selling at a lower price, the PayPal fee hits even stronger.

And so, because I see the situation as such, as a buyer of gently used to nearly new or new pre-owned doll goods I try and help the seller keep as much of the selling price as possible, especially when I know they're taking a loss and even moreso when the item is very new if not brand new. I offer to pay by cash when I can (a person accepting it into a Personal Account won't have to pay fees) and if I end up using my CC, I will add in a little extra to help balance the fees that will result.

The way I handle payments for other situations vary accordingly and based on what I said about CCs being a convenience to both seller and buyer, but in the case of the business-seller, more of a convenience for them.

So for people who are selling commissionables and are, for all intents and purposes, running their own little (or big!) businesses, the way I handle payments is a bit different. I still DO try and give them the option to accept either payment, but if I'm paying upwards of $25 to $50 for a commissioned good or service, I will expect the seller to absorb the fee of convenience and security.

Does it sound bad or mean? I honestly don't think it should because of what I outlined above in talking about businesses in the iron world accepting CC payments. The expectation of running a business is to make a profit. Not to recoup losses of purchasing the wrong wig, but to actually PROFIT. And one of the factors that helps businesses make a profit and attract customers is the ability to receive as many convenient forms of payment as possible.

Now when it comes to selling dolls, I admit to feeling a bit divided and I guess that is why I feel that the fee, depending, should be absorbed by both the seller and the buyer.

In a lot of cases with the reselling of common/standard molds without special mods or faceups, the seller is at the risk of taking a loss. And not just two cents of loss, but upwards of $5 to $25 from the fees alone and not considering the loss on the original selling price of the doll if there is a loss.

It's difficult to expect anyone to pay for a $500 doll with cash only and at the same time, both the buyer and the seller want the security that a service like PayPal can give. The original owner isn't making a profit off the doll and to me, especially since the fee amount is so much, I wouldn't hesitate to offer to pay half of the fee because it's halfway my convenience and security and it's halfway the seller's convenience and security as well and well... let's face it. Generally speaking, dolls take less of a face-value loss than say a wig or shirt would in most cases.

In the case of LE dolls, I'd like to say that I'd offer to pay for some of the CC fee (because hell if many people randomly have $2000 sitting in the bank) but I really might not. The idea of paying double or more than the original price for a mold sort of sours the notion of helping the seller recoup losses, you know, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to admit that. 'Cause the thing is, in the case of the LE dolls, there is usually profit being made and let's face it - when someone's looking to make money and they have the choice of selling either an LE doll that's going to go for over twice the original price they bought it at versus a bunch of wigs, more than likely the doll is the one being sold to make that money happen.

And here I cue the 'BJDs for Potential Investment' debate.

But despite what I said, this isn't about people using BJDs for money making machines, but the simple matter of fact fact that LE dolls usually sell well and at a higher value than they were bought at and hell if I've seen many sellers willing to sell their LEs for anything less than a profit. Can't say I blame them because it's good financial sense in the ways of collectibles, but on the other hand, can they blame buyers for not wanting to pay for PayPal fees?

In a lot of cases, you're making a profit and you intended to make a profit and it's the buyer who's shelling out EXTRA big bucks because of that desire for profit.

... Of course, no one said anyone had to buy those dolls in the first place, yeah?

But... yeah.

For the most part, all that I wrote above is how I see and deal with the whole issue of PayPal fees.

Here's a rundown:

As a freelancer out to make a living, I absorb the fee of convenience as part of my cost of operation. It helps me make my profit and I pay for the service.

As a seller who's selling a wig that I just bought that I just found out doesn't fit, I'm hoping to recoup the cost of that wig and nothing more and I'd like to not have to absorb said fees (and understand that other such sellers don't want to absorb said fees either) that I'm otherwise willing to absorb while doing actual business business. ... But I usually end up absorbing the fees anyways for the most part as I by habit absorb the fees as a freelancer.

As a seller who's out to sell an LE doll in hopes of making more money from it than I spent, I'll absorb the fee because of the profiting mentality of it.

As a buyer who's buying from a profiting business, the fees should be the business's. I get pissed when some restaurants only accept cash or checks even for large group orders because I KNOW they are profiting enough to pay fees. As a result, I oftentimes don't visit such places with groups.

As a buyer who's buying from a 'garage sale' sort of thread or is paying for an even exchange where profit isn't the issue, I try and help the seller recoup PayPal fees and pay by cash only/give the seller an opportunity to take the money into a Personal Account where applicable.

Aaand as a buyer who's buying an LE second hand where the price is a nice profit, I expect the seller to be willing to absorb the fees. $50 bucks or less out of a profit of a $400 ish? I'M paying that $400 extra already, you know?

Whew.

 

Additionally, as if that gargantuan post weren't enough, I'm posting an excerpt that explains currency conversion for PayPal and credit cards.

Sorry about that hugely long post, but I hope I made my thoughts clear on the matter. Additionally, I hope to clear up any misunderstandings regarding currency conversion and related fees and so here's the excerpt:

 

Actually, most reputable credit card companies and PayPal for sure use the current market currency rates. If you look on PayPal's 'Fee' page, it links to an explanation of that.

The rates are processed at the time that the payment is processed, which is pretty much instantaneous with CCs and PayPal and with PayPal, they show the currency rate they are using before you make the actual payment.

XE.com is a great tool for watching currency conversion rates.

You can also read my earlier post to find out more about currency conversion and the related fees associated with it and such.

Edit: I will emphasize that the currency conversion rate that PayPal and CCs use is the current mid market rate (XE.com is a pretty reliable place to track such things) and that the RATE is EFFECTIVE AT THE TIME THE PAYMENT IS PROCESSED. So if it's like 30 to 1 today at 11 AM but the payment doesn't go through till 11 PM, the RATE will more than likely have CHANGED.

ALSO, PayPal and all CCs charge a percentage of your purchase to convert the currency for you! Check and make sure that the amount of money you got 'cheated out of' is NOT the fee.

In all the times I've used PayPal, I got the current market rate plus a minus of 2.5% fee. The fee schedule might be different depending on country.

 

I craft doll clothes and sell on ebay. The fees cost me, total, about 20% of my sale, which isn't much except to me, as I usually start my outfits between $2.99 and $4.99. Sometimes I do very well and an outfit sells for much more, at which point the paypal and ebay fees are a smaller percentage, most times I don't do that well. With the cost of packaging and mail going up, I did have to increase the shipping I charge. I also start auctions a little higher than I did in the past.

I am basically selling on ebay to 'build' a name--I prefer to take direct commissions for outfits, where I can actually make a few dollars ( I am a widow with kids, one of whom has special needs, which limits my ability to work outside the home). I would much prefer not to deal with ebay fees....

 

What really puts me off is when the seller not only charges fees- but also leaves it up to me to figure out how much the total will be incl. fees + handling + shipping + whatever! Urgh! -_-

 

For the many people that were asking where in Paypal's TOS it says that a seller cannot pass along the fees to buyers, here is the link:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_spp&login_access=1213679843
(You may have to log-in to your Paypal account to read it -- I had to.)

In particular is section 4.7:

"You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions."

Any persons engaging in Restricted Activities (like the one mentioned above) will result in various actions taken by Paypal. The actions taken "may include but are not limited to the following:

* We may close, suspend, or limit your access to your Account or the Services (such as limiting access to any of your Funding Sources, and your ability to send money, make withdrawals, or remove financial Information);
* We may contact buyers who have purchased goods or services from you, contact your bank or credit card issuer, and warn other Users, law enforcement, or impacted third parties of your actions;
* We may refuse to provide our Services to you in the future;
* We may hold your funds for up to 180 Days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability; and
* We may take legal action against you."


Jenny

 

When I was commissioning a seamstress here on DoA, she mentioned something about me having to pay PayPal fees. I still don't really understand what she meant. I started a paypal account recently and have only used it a few times. It seems (from reading most of the other posts) that a seller requiring a buyer to pay the paypal fees isn't exactly smiled upon. She didn't tell me the amount I had to pay nor did she add it in with my total -It doesn't look like she did- and I assumed it would be automatically taken off of my card. It looks like that isn't the case. I'm still confused about the whole matter. :confused:

 

Personally I think that there's a reason they charge the person reciving the money the fees rather than charging the buyer the fees automatically. I agree with the thought that it's double dipping due to the fees being just like business expenses.

Also, I find charging on group orders to be reasonable--if only because they would lose a good bit more than what's fair due to several people buying an item at once.

 

I have been selling on eBay and through Paypal for 5 years - I have started to add the fees to my auctions and sales recently only because otherwise I end up out of pocket for quite a large amount and quite frankly it becomes not worth the time, effort and expense to actually sell anything if you end up losing money. I'm not in business, I'm just a a casual seller and I don't sell to make a profit - I usually sell to try and recover costs and more often than not I am selling at less than I bought the item for. Recently I was charged over $20 in Paypal fees on a BJD transaction. Think about how much that is for the service they are offering. Why can't the cost of the transaction be shared by both people participating in it? The recent changes to eBay and Paypal have made me very angry - they seem to want to stamp out small time sellers - people who sell for small amounts. At some point it just becomes too much for the seller to bear the brunt of all the fees. I think some of this ire over fees should be directed at eBay and Paypal not at the sellers.

If you include the fees in the cost of your item;
1) your not being upfront about that
2) people don't realise how much it costs the seller in fees to sell the item they think you want more for the actual item
3) people are less likely to bid or buy if the item is priced higher
4) I think Paypal and eBay have to be exposed for what they are doing with their fees

 

I don't disagree with #2 or #4, and to some extent, #3 as well.

#1, on the other hand, yes, I agree, you're not saying, "you are being charged for the expected paypal fees in this starting price".

However, you are probably also not saying "you are being charged for a portion of the shipping of my materials to me when I ordered them" or "part of this price includes the costs of my studio space" or "part of this price includes specialized packing materials" or "starting bid for this item includes the fees incurred to list it in the first place" -- and yet, all of these things will, or reasonably should, be included in any basic pricing.

 

i get annoyed when people ask for money for the fees since paypal specifically says not to. but then again, i understand why people do it.

rather than having the person charging me x for the item, x for shipping and, x for fees, I'd rather have them charge me x for the item and x for shipping+fees. Yeah, sounds silly, but It sounds less...i dunno, tacky? just my opinion.