Paypal fees discussion

Firstly that's a horrible suggestion, that makes the buyer look flaky and untrustworthy. Secondly the seller's account is frozen and they can't do anything with their account.

I personally wouldn't buy from someone who charged fees that way you could avoid even having to do something so shady.

 

This would legally be the right thing to do, but I don't think it would technically change much in term of prices. If that were to happen, those same sellers who charge buyers the fees would probably just raise the prices accordingly so the fee is hidden in the total price. Like with some sellers with, oooh, free shipping! But hold on a second, we also charge more than our competitor over there.

It never crossed my mind that the practice was unfair; I didn't mind paying fees at all. Yeah, the sellers WERE paying for the convenience of being paid instantaneously, but I also saw it as a convenience for me to transport money safely and quickly. I guess I'm too nice. :X

 

^ This. Ebay doesn't allow sellers to charge buyers for the Ebay listing fee, percentage commission, or Paypal fees. So instead, I see a lot of sellers with ridiculous "Shipping Prices" to cover those costs. They just call the fee something different, but they're still charging you for it. If DoA was to post a rule saying "you can't say you're charging Paypal fees", then those sellers who already do would just up the initial price of their items by 5% and say they're not charging any fees.

In the vending machine example listed a few posts back, you ARE being charged extra, it's just not listed as "rental space fee". That overhead is just lumped in with the cost of the item. The candy bar doesn't have listed underneath it ".50 for the bar, .10 for the wrapper, .5 to cover our advertising costs, and .10 for the Vending Company". It just says "$.75". But all that is really included when pricing an item, any item. (It's an oversimplified example of course... a lot more factors go into pricing than just the ones I listed). The credit card example, about the stores not tacking on an extra percentage for their CC fees? They do. They just don't tell you. It contributes to increasing the initial price of the item. That's just how business works.

It's more a matter of sticking by your word than a money issue for me. Honestly, I'm not against charging the fees on essential business principle. I'm against listing a fee charge because it's a violation of a business contract, which the account holder willingly entered into. For the same reason, I disapprove of agreeing to pay those fees, then later sending Paypal an email to get them back. You as a buyer made an agreement to pay that fee, regardless of whether the seller is doing something wrong. You agreed to participate in it and essentially entered a business contract with the understanding that you would pay a certain amount. Going behind the seller's back afterward to get part of that money back is another case of going back on your word. Basically, if you SAY you're going to do something, then you should do that. If that means not charging fees because you told Paypal you wouldn't, then don't. If that means paying the amount you said you'd pay, then do it.

Though I will admit I still think there's a bit of an ethical gray area in large group orders that I mentioned before, for the reasons I listed previously. Without being able to include fees, group orders would be impractical and unfeasible. It's like a necessary evil in order for that process to work. I don't really like it, but there's not really a way around it other than making the GO host pay more for their items than they would in the first place, besides having to go through all the hassle of organizing the order and shipping out the items. And who would want to do that?

 

This is something that is being discussed, but may or may not happen. I would be concerned that from a legal/economic standpoint that DoA would be opening itself to liability by taking up policing another service's policies. "Terms of Service" are also different than "laws"....

You may notice that while the moderators are pretty strict about the forum's rules about bumping, Marketplace access, selling items not in hand, etc... we are very hands-off in terms of the transactions themselves. We don't dictate what prices people can set, how or when they must ship, what they need to put on the customs forms, what forms of payment they must accept, or anything on that end. It is upon the buyer and seller to agree upon these transactional details.

From a personal standpoint, I avoid buying from people who charge Paypal fees and I don't charge them myself. However, I have no problems with group order organizers charging Paypal fees because they need to in turn forward on a specific amount to a third party. Y'need to weigh the benefit of group order savings against the actual fees being charged. If someone doesn't want to pay the fee, they should order on their own.

 

As a seller here and on Ebay, I never charge fees, or charge extra to cover them--I consider them to be the price I pay for the safety and service of using Paypal. I will not purchase something when someone wants their fees paid on top of the sale price--they might as well say, "I want 100.00 for this item, but YOU will have to pay me 104.00 for it".

That said, if someone DID agree to buy something and pay fees, and then used Paypal to get those fees back, that is a breach of contract with the person you are buying from. A sales agreement is just that, an agreement to pay what the seller is asking. If this is what comicbookartistboi is saying he did, then I for sure would never sell to him, and word gets around fast if you do things like that. There are enough jerks in the world without adding to the growing numbers.

 

It's a pain in the arse to worry about paypal fees- I'm trying to open a BJD webshop in the near future so my whole thing is, I'll suck up the fees. I really don't think it's fair to have the buyer lose even more money on something (especially when it comes to international shipping) since paying the damnable fees and the shipping is quite alot. So that's it. Paypal is far too convenient to be worrying about the fees- especially when it's a small item.

I also look at it this way: You're getting say, $400 already- on just a doll. half the time, the wig and eyes aren't included! For god sake sellers, how much money do you need?
this is in no way targeting anyone I've done business with- I've had wonderful transactions, and was lucky enough to get a seller who was perfectly nice about the whole thing, but what I'm saying goes for those people selling a doll for $400+ and still charging paypal fees on top of that. I always ignore those threads, no matter how nice the doll is. I think it's just unfair!

 

No, never. It was discovered after. I filed a claim because it was not brought to my attention till after i had already sent the money to them. I asked politely for the fee money back, and was denied that. So i filed a claim. If you buy deliberately knowing that there are fees, then that is on you. I guess i should say that if you buy and then discover that fees were charged to you, just file the claim and get your money back.

 

I did state before that i have no problem when the fee being charged is for a group order. It's not fair to the GO head to have to eat charges to help other people save shipping....i'm talking strictly about people who just randomly add fees to their sales threads.

I'm bad with words...i'm not saying run around doing this deliberately to sellers who charge, i'm talking about if you find that you were charged fees, and didn't know that till after you handed over money, try politely to ask for a refund of the fees, and if that fails, go to paypal. You will get your money back. And honestly? If paypal account holders are passing down their fees (other than group orders, and such) to the buyers, then they DESERVE to have their accounts frozen till they refund the fees. It's against their rules to charge fees!

if the person is adding it to the cost, well, hey, then they have the sense to not outright say "i'm charging for my paypal fees". But i think it becomes clear when someone is doing just that. But i think it's wrong for someone to tell someone outright "I expect you to cover my paypal fees for the convenience of my being able to take money online. Not to mention, fees are higher or lower, depending on the type of account you have. How fair is it for someone who gets high fees due to the type of account they have, to pass that down to you or me. Why should i have to pay for YOU deciding to have the best/merchant/whatever account?

 

oops, double post

 

But they had worked the fee into the price you'd agreed to pay? Sorry, but that's just about as bad. If you agree to pay $100 for something and then find out later that the seller is only getting $96 and added a cushion, does it matter? You agreed to pay the $100 and, basically, sellers are supposed to work their operating costs into the prices that they sell things for- at a shop it's things like employee wages, rent, utilities, etc. and for a DoA seller things like Paypal and packaging.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you again, but if you agreed to pay a certain price then does it matter if the breakdown tuned out to include cushioning for Paypal's fees after the fact?

 

I run a clothing line and commissions, and have been for a few years. I accept several different forms of payment, and only recently realized that I was getting jipped out of my money from PayPal! When I went to ship the item I was upset that I didn't have the right amount of money because they deducted this price and had to ship it out of my own wallet. :/

So after fiddling around and thinking (because I'm horrendous at math) I only charge the fee when it's a commission, through PP only. Why? Because I charge materials fee's first - I go out and add up all the prices of most everything I'll need, and then ask for that as down payment. If I'm not getting the right amount of money, I'm buying my own materials to send out! I don't add it to the labor costs. So therefore if I'm selling something already made, there is no fee. And if the person can pay otherwise, there is no fee. I won't add it to the other items because then that jacks up the price for the people who DON'T want to pay with CC.

 

The "intent" of the Paypal policy is more that they don't want Paypal customers to pay a higher price than non-Paypal users. This is sensible. And it should be expected that costs are integrated into the price; nobody seriously expects sellers to operate at a loss in the long term! (And if you do, you fail business and economics forever.)

The policy is effectively a penalty for non-Paypal users, though of course nobody would phrase it that way.

 

Based on this thread, most people are fine paying $100 for an item that has PP fees built into its price, but if the seller says it's $96 plus $4 in fees, then it's wrong and (according to some posters) worthy of punishment on DoA? What's the difference? Whether the seller is explaining that part of the cost is PP fees or not, it's still $100.

Note that I'm not supporting the charging of fees to customers. That is against PP terms of service, and that's the end of the story. But I'm trying to understand the outrage, and I'm not quite getting there, since it seems like buyers are saying "How dare you charge me a $100 total! I demand... a $100 total!"

 

Thank you. That's pretty much what I was trying to say in that gigantic novel a few post back (sorry about that! ) but you summed it up very nicely.

That makes a lot of sense. I didn't think about it that way. For example, saying in a sales thread "If you pay by money order it's $95, but if you pay by Paypal it'll be $100". I can see Paypal wanting to avoid that situation. But someone saying "It's $100 for everyone" and factoring that cost into the price no matter what, without declaring that it's included seems to be okay? Like Lizzard, I'm kind of scratching my head here.

 

I'd just like to point out that people who use their credit cards through PayPal are just as much PayPal users as those who have their account hooked up to a debit card or bank account, or who carry a balance!

People who pay by completely other forms (money order, concealed cash, personal cheque) are a different kettle of fish...but in the context of the DoA marketplace, I have mostly seen posts that differentiate between PayPal CC and PayPal non-CC--many people won't even take other forms of payment.

I also wonder if PayPal perhaps charges for credit card payments because the credit card companies charge PayPal (just like a normal retail store).

 

so you are saying that if someone charges you fees, and then doesn't say so till AFTER you paid for the item, and then let it slip that you were also charged for paypal fees, that it's ok? NO, sorry, ur wrong here. If you are going to do that, don't let it slip later that you charged for paypal fees. I agreed to pay for a fee for the item i purchased, and it's pretty typical that shipping, insurance, etc are part of that (or additional, depending on the seller) NOT for their paypal fees. Paypal fees are not a standard given part of a transaction. And you know what? I sent the emails to Paypal and they agreed. And again, let's face the fact, that they are doing something that is not tolerated even by paypal. If you ever end up in a situation where you were wrongfully charged paypal fees, and you go to paypal with it, they are going to find in your favor. Again, i have seen people who charge fees, and hey, that's their thing. And if you slip it by me and i don't know, then hey, it happens, and i was stupid for not asking. But if you hide it, and then out of your own stupidity you let it slip, don't act all surprised that the buyer is now upset that you overcharged them because of your paypal fees that you were supposed to pay for to begin with. Granted, on something as trivial as an outfit or a pair of shoes, the fees are like a couple bucks. But when you get up to some of the prices for dolls, they fees can be outlandish. I have to eat these fees when i sell anything. Why should i have to pay for those fees too, just because someone else wants to have their cake and eat it too? If you accept paypal for payment, part of that is accepting that you PAY for that service.

and them charging a little extra because they are dealing with employees utilities, etc, hey, all well and good. But when you are using a system like Paypal, which has very strict rules about not charging your fees to others, then you broke their rules, and therefor, you lose. and yes, if their breakdown included fees from paypal, and they MENTIONED that after the money had been taken, then hey, but don't be so stupid as to let it slip later, after you failed to mention it. I do respect the fact that people mention their fee charging, (although it annoys me because i then have to not buy their things) because at least they are being honest and letting someone know what they are paying for.

then you clearly are not hearing the complaints. The issue with imbedding is that you are hiding the fact that you charge fees. That's even worse than charging the fees to begin with! I'm simply saying that it's against Paypals TOS to charge fees. If you want to break their rules and do it anyways, do what you wish. But there are plenty of people who would buy that item, not knowing it was inclusive of a fee for paypal. So it's more like "How dare you charge me 100.00 total, i demand 95.00 total!" By the person buying the item. When you imbed these fees into your sale, (and lets face it, it's simply a way to HIDE the fact that ur doing it) you are taking the choice away from people. The choice to either not care and pay your fee, or the choice to say, "No, i'm sorry, i do not pay paypal fees.".

 

undermost salamander>> I think I get what you mean. For sellers with a basic account, buyers paying via a Paypal balance type payment would be overcharged if fees were already added into their prices. (Of course, this train of though wouldn't apply to the accounts where they're charged fees regardless of payment type.)

I list in my posts that I only take non-CC type payments because while I don't like to charge fees (but neither do I enjoy making a loss), I don't want to bump up my prices with a fee-buffer when someone paying with, say, their Paypal balance wouldn't be required to pay the fees anyway, and I'd be overcharging them. :\

I suppose I'd miss out on customers who are only able to pay via a CC-type payment, but I think it helps prevent me from overcharging some customers, and leaves my conscience clear.


From a buying standpoint, although Paypal states not to do so in their TOS, I'm actually fine with paying sellers the necessary fees if my payment warrants it. :\ As a seller, I don't like being stuck with fees, and I wouldn't expect someone else to like it either. I'll just factor it in as Goods and Service tax and such (which it rather is, isn't it?), especially since it usually isn't too large a difference anyway.

 

Then you are being honest And with this, i respect you. I simply, and personally feel that it's wrong to charge the fees to people. I also think DOA should take a stand on it, but i'm not a mod. It's up to them to decide not to or to allow it. But hiding the fees, and then being so dumb later as to let it slip, well, people are just asking for trouble doing that. Hell, I myself am starting to state that i take only non-cc paypal, to avoid getting the fees, but i'm sure as hell not going to pass those down to the buyer, or even worse, hide them in my sale. First, it's a good way to lose business. But even more importantly, it's dishonest.

 

If you thought the person was overcharging you then why buy in the first place? You agreed to pay $X, you clearly thought the item you bought was worth $X, why get up in arms about them "overcharging" you when you agreed on the price charged? It just really does not make sense to me.

 

As I said before, DoA is under no obligation whatsoever to enforce another website's terms of service. It is your job as a consumer to watch your own back when it comes to pricing. If you're willing to pay the fees, pay them. If you don't want to pay them, take it up with the seller or buy from someone else. It sends a strong message when you speak with your wallet.